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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Is true that there isn't enough pvpers in the whole world to sustain a big budget OW PVP mmo?

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185 posts found
  dave6660

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2344

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

5/07/14 10:44:58 AM#141
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
Another little talked about aspect is just like the players the majority of developers were brought in to build WoW like games. The pedigree is not there to build other types of MMORPGs.


The fact remains that there are not a lot of other AAA games that aren't themepark questhubs. IMO the reasons...

1. Imitation of a WoW. Little to none AAA development in any other type of MMORPG.
2. Culture of themepark in developers. Themepark questhubs is what most developers know after 10 years.
3. This genre is very dogmatic and rarely anyone likes to break conventional wisdom or take risk. Conventional wisdom was that everyone wanted WoW like games because WoW was 16 more popular than other MMORPGs.
4. Cost of entry and quality. Combined those with cost entry to make MMORPGS and extreme niche of indie MMORPGS you have the current situation.

Actually, many developers seem to be "one hit wonders" leading one to believe that they don't have any more skill than the rest. They could've been at the right place at the right time with the right(-enough) product.

How many hit games do all the armchair developers on mmorpg.com have?  Having 1 hit game isn't looking so bad anymore.

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

  furbans

Elite Member

Joined: 2/10/13
Posts: 927

5/07/14 10:46:22 AM#142
Originally posted by Foobarx

What they need to do is create a massive open world in which there are no NPCs at all... the players become the inn keepers,  the good guys and the bad guys.  Everyone is killable by anyone... just as it is in the real world.  Anyone can destroy anything, just as it is in the real world.   Anyone can build anything, just as it is in the real world.  Economy only exists if you make one.  No in game currency (i.e. gold), just crafted/harvested consumables.  

 

You want epic armor?  You need to gather materials on your own and craft it.  You will have to fight for limited resources, defend your plots of land, seize supplies from your neighbors.  If you play the game at odd hours, you won't see as many if any players.  If you play a peak hours, you may find it very crowded.  Just like in the real world.

 

No more killing of monsters the size of Manhatten for loot.  Godzilla doesn't live down the street from you, your neighbor does... and he wields a weed whacker... deal with it.

Go ahead and do that and you'll have a desolate ghost town MMO that will be shut down within a year or a couple of years with substantial investment.

And in the real world we do have NPCs, they are your gov't entities, order keeping, hotel receptionist, ect ect who all they care about is doing their days work and can give a rats ass about people but fulfill their role.

Worst ideal...ever.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19857

5/07/14 12:12:54 PM#143
Originally posted by dave6660
Originally posted by Quirhid

 

Actually, many developers seem to be "one hit wonders" leading one to believe that they don't have any more skill than the rest. They could've been at the right place at the right time with the right(-enough) product.

How many hit games do all the armchair developers on mmorpg.com have?  Having 1 hit game isn't looking so bad anymore.

Why do one have to produce a hit game to criticize games? Most movie critics don't make movies. I don't see why i need to be Joss Wheldon to decide if The Avengers is a good movie for me.

 

  YoungCaesar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/08/13
Posts: 231

5/07/14 2:42:01 PM#144
Originally posted by furbans
Originally posted by Foobarx

What they need to do is create a massive open world in which there are no NPCs at all... the players become the inn keepers,  the good guys and the bad guys.  Everyone is killable by anyone... just as it is in the real world.  Anyone can destroy anything, just as it is in the real world.   Anyone can build anything, just as it is in the real world.  Economy only exists if you make one.  No in game currency (i.e. gold), just crafted/harvested consumables.  

 

You want epic armor?  You need to gather materials on your own and craft it.  You will have to fight for limited resources, defend your plots of land, seize supplies from your neighbors.  If you play the game at odd hours, you won't see as many if any players.  If you play a peak hours, you may find it very crowded.  Just like in the real world.

 

No more killing of monsters the size of Manhatten for loot.  Godzilla doesn't live down the street from you, your neighbor does... and he wields a weed whacker... deal with it.

Go ahead and do that and you'll have a desolate ghost town MMO that will be shut down within a year or a couple of years with substantial investment.

And in the real world we do have NPCs, they are your gov't entities, order keeping, hotel receptionist, ect ect who all they care about is doing their days work and can give a rats ass about people but fulfill their role.

Worst ideal...ever.

Your telling me that cute receptionist at the hotel down the street is a robot? Damn, I would have never known....

  Beatnik59

Elite Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 2233

"Playing things I shouldn''t be playing since 1977."

5/07/14 7:14:50 PM#145

No, I don't think there are enough PvPers to sustain a big budget OW PvP MMO...

...Just like there aren't enough roleplayers to sustain a big budget OW roleplaying MMO...

...Just like there aren't enough crafters to sustain a big budget OW economic/crafting MMO...

...Just like there aren't enough slow-playing, exploring hardcores to sustain a big budget OW exploration/big world (no insta-travel) MMO...

BUT, there ARE enough PvPers, roleplayers, crafters, old-school explorers, storytellers, world-builders and traders to sustain a big budget, OW MMO with features that every one of the groups would like.  That's the good news!

The bad news is that the PvPers tend not to respect roleplay, or rules against Macro/AFK play, or things like item decay, or long distances they can't insta-bypass, or building/fluff features.  The other factions also tend not to like open-world PvP.  And these divisions came to a head in what I dubbed "the great playstyle wars" of 2001-2008, where entire factions of players pseudo-intellectualized entire playstyles like PvP, roleplay, and crafting as irrelevant and illegitimate to want in an MMO.

Hopefully, we will all start to put aside our differences, compromise on some of our deeply-held aversions, to get the kind of game we want.  But this has got to be a quid-pro-quo deal.  We can't have open-world PvP unless the gankers are willing to support roleplaying (IC and OOC protocols), item decay, anti-AFK enforcement, long travel and assorted other niche interests.  But if the gankers CAN support those systems, we might--we can hope--get the game we all want.

__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken

"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  Purutzil

Elite Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 2864

The Critical Hit Pretzel!

5/07/14 7:25:28 PM#146

The problem is the maturity of most Pvpers. A lot of that Open World Pvp = Pure ganking. This ganking is in a good amount of the cases just griefing, hitting people who can't fight back. When those people can't get that advantage (if sandbox its likely those who spent more time would have an advantage) they tend to quit the game and leave it in the dust.

 

Theres not a shortage of players, its just a shortage of people who will stick around, with only those who get that initial hold on power that will likely stick it out as the others simply will quit for not being able to catch up, and those who don't like that "no effort" kill on them to just leave the game. 

 

More people would support Open World PvP if it wasn't a Gank fest focused solely upon killing only when the big advantage is given to them. Even then Its likely to turn into a one sided mess where the other side will just give up to the other with superior numbers and power, an issue we see in games like WoW or Rift where one faction will completely outnumber the other as "Open World Pvpers" seek the winning side without needing any skill.

  Nephelai

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/29/13
Posts: 164

5/07/14 7:44:11 PM#147
The whole pretence of MMO PvP is to out level, out gear or out number your opponent. Skill is far down the list and it is purposely designed that way so that people who could never get a kill in a skill based 1v1 PvP game have a home. Its basically the Lion v the Hyena's scenario. There are some great gamers at the elite PvP level but all the rest are just Hyena's doing what Hyena's do.
  Pyuk

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/21/05
Posts: 659

5/07/14 7:54:34 PM#148
There's 7 billion people on this blue ball we call Earth. I think there might actually be enough amongst all those bodies who have both the tech and desire.

I make spreadsheets at work - I don't want to make them for the games I play.

  kinart

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/18/12
Posts: 99

5/07/14 7:54:58 PM#149

It's more like there aren't enough carebears to sustain a big budget OW (or CW actually) carebear mmo.

You want evidence you say? Just name me one MMO that identifies itself as carebearish... and i 'll name you at least 10 that identify themselves as PVP mmos.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19857

5/07/14 8:04:33 PM#150
Originally posted by Pyuk
There's 7 billion people on this blue ball we call Earth. I think there might actually be enough amongst all those bodies who have both the tech and desire.

Most can't even afford a smart phone, not to mention a computer with internet access to play video games.

 

  kinart

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/18/12
Posts: 99

5/07/14 8:08:57 PM#151
Originally posted by Beatnik59
[...]

The bad news is that the PvPers tend not to respect roleplay, or rules against Macro/AFK play, or things like item decay, or long distances they can't insta-bypass, or building/fluff features.  The other factions also tend not to like open-world PvP.  And these divisions came to a head in what I dubbed "the great playstyle wars" of 2001-2008, where entire factions of players pseudo-intellectualized entire playstyles like PvP, roleplay, and crafting as irrelevant and illegitimate to want in an MMO.

[...]

You guys just hate PvPers, that's all. The most roleplaying i have ever seen happening in a MMO, was (in ascending order) 1) on Face of Mankind (pure PvP madness) and 2) on Warhammer Online, a game focused on PvP as well.

If you really want to point out a group of players that doesn't respect roleplayers, that would be achievers.

  sethman75

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/14/13
Posts: 202

5/07/14 8:26:43 PM#152

Sorry but the answer is no.

The worst thing i find about pvp players is that when they lose, they blame the other class for being overpowered.

So you see the threads full of Pally is OP needs a nerf or Fire Mage is OP needs a nerf.

The worst part about that is the devs usually listen to a few whiny players and ruin the class for everybody else.

Which creates animosity and players leave very quickly.

  Beatnik59

Elite Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 2233

"Playing things I shouldn''t be playing since 1977."

5/08/14 4:24:54 PM#153
Originally posted by kinart
Originally posted by Beatnik59
[...]

The bad news is that the PvPers tend not to respect roleplay, or rules against Macro/AFK play, or things like item decay, or long distances they can't insta-bypass, or building/fluff features.  The other factions also tend not to like open-world PvP.  And these divisions came to a head in what I dubbed "the great playstyle wars" of 2001-2008, where entire factions of players pseudo-intellectualized entire playstyles like PvP, roleplay, and crafting as irrelevant and illegitimate to want in an MMO.

[...]

You guys just hate PvPers, that's all. The most roleplaying i have ever seen happening in a MMO, was (in ascending order) 1) on Face of Mankind (pure PvP madness) and 2) on Warhammer Online, a game focused on PvP as well.

If you really want to point out a group of players that doesn't respect roleplayers, that would be achievers.

No doubt that PVPers can roleplay, if they want to.  I wouldn't be holding out an olive branch if the PvPers couldn't roleplay.

The problem comes in when breaking the game results in a PvP advantage.  PvPers may oppose botting/AFK play/Buffbotting, but when running a bot results in 24/7 free buffs, with no downtime, I haven't seen a PvPer (who is serious about PvP) NOT run a bot, if they want to remain competitive.  Or when proposals get put out there for decay or no decay, Pvpers (naturally) will tend to come down on the side of "no decay," since they want to maintain the advantages they have.

And when xXDEATHDEALERXx, whose entire roleplay bio says "lolz!", starts to pwn people who are maintaining the suspension of disbelief, the game turns lame, and the people who hold the game together leave.  Because the game engine doesn't care about whether the guy who pwns is a lam0r or a good roleplayer.  In fact, the lam0r has the advantage, since he or she isn't as invested in what goes on, and will have no inhibition to do lame things (like post cry videos).

In short, the achievers are bad, no doubt.  But they aren't alone.  And, by the same token, I think that a lot of the other factions (the roleplayers, the crafters et al) have been a bit too hard on the griefers.

But we need to all put aside our preferences and think holistically.  If we have any chance of playing anything more interesting than WoW ever again, we are going to have to find ways of giving every playstyle what they want, and do the things necessary to maintain the atmosphere...even when it might not be the most convenient thing.

We're all in this together, man!

__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken

"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10650

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

5/08/14 5:22:45 PM#154
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by dave6660
Originally posted by Quirhid

 

Actually, many developers seem to be "one hit wonders" leading one to believe that they don't have any more skill than the rest. They could've been at the right place at the right time with the right(-enough) product.

How many hit games do all the armchair developers on mmorpg.com have?  Having 1 hit game isn't looking so bad anymore.

Why do one have to produce a hit game to criticize games? Most movie critics don't make movies. I don't see why i need to be Joss Wheldon to decide if The Avengers is a good movie for me.

 

 

For people who say, "I like/dislike game A because my experience was B", it's fine.  What we have here are people who say, "Game mechanic X is the wrong game mechanic because Y".  What we also have here are very few people who even understand X or Y.  They are taking their game experience B and trying to translate that into game mechanic Y.

 

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19857

5/08/14 11:26:48 PM#155
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by dave6660
Originally posted by Quirhid

 

Actually, many developers seem to be "one hit wonders" leading one to believe that they don't have any more skill than the rest. They could've been at the right place at the right time with the right(-enough) product.

How many hit games do all the armchair developers on mmorpg.com have?  Having 1 hit game isn't looking so bad anymore.

Why do one have to produce a hit game to criticize games? Most movie critics don't make movies. I don't see why i need to be Joss Wheldon to decide if The Avengers is a good movie for me.

 

 

For people who say, "I like/dislike game A because my experience was B", it's fine.  What we have here are people who say, "Game mechanic X is the wrong game mechanic because Y".  What we also have here are very few people who even understand X or Y.  They are taking their game experience B and trying to translate that into game mechanic Y.

 

"wrong" is subjective. What is wrong with saying "The walking to dungeon mechanics is the wrong game mechanics for me, because i don't play games to walk"?

It is perfectly fair opinion. 99% of the posts here (whether we are talking about games, or gameplay mechanics) are about personal preferences anyway.

 

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6983

5/09/14 1:46:19 AM#156


Originally posted by nariusseldon

"wrong" is subjective.
 

Wrong isn't subjective, it's relative.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19857

5/09/14 5:25:57 PM#157
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon

"wrong" is subjective.
 

 

Wrong isn't subjective, it's relative.

It is subjective when people have different value systems (and clearly that is the case in terms of video game preferences).

And being subjective and relative are not mutually exclusive.

 

  DocBrody

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/24/13
Posts: 1483

5/09/14 5:28:08 PM#158

of course it's BS and developers hopefully know by now.

 

maybe they will stop making one safemode themepark after the other

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10650

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

5/09/14 5:39:39 PM#159
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by dave6660
Originally posted by Quirhid

 

Actually, many developers seem to be "one hit wonders" leading one to believe that they don't have any more skill than the rest. They could've been at the right place at the right time with the right(-enough) product.

How many hit games do all the armchair developers on mmorpg.com have?  Having 1 hit game isn't looking so bad anymore.

Why do one have to produce a hit game to criticize games? Most movie critics don't make movies. I don't see why i need to be Joss Wheldon to decide if The Avengers is a good movie for me.

 

 

For people who say, "I like/dislike game A because my experience was B", it's fine.  What we have here are people who say, "Game mechanic X is the wrong game mechanic because Y".  What we also have here are very few people who even understand X or Y.  They are taking their game experience B and trying to translate that into game mechanic Y.

 

"wrong" is subjective. What is wrong with saying "The walking to dungeon mechanics is the wrong game mechanics for me, because i don't play games to walk"?

It is perfectly fair opinion. 99% of the posts here (whether we are talking about games, or gameplay mechanics) are about personal preferences anyway.

 

 

If they were saying they don't like it, fine.  Totally legit.  But again, that is not what we're getting here.  What we're getting here is a list of reasons why OW/FFA PvP is a good or bad game mechanic based on some supposedly objective reason.  "It creates community!"  "It encourages ganking!"  "Players will play the game!"  "Players will leave the game!"  And so on.

 

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12323

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

5/09/14 5:44:50 PM#160
Originally posted by maccarthur2004

Is really true that there isn't enough fans of ow pvp in the world to sustain and give profit to a big budget MMO?

You're asking the wrong question. Are there enough people that want to do the other activities necessary to make it an engaging MMORPG experience in an OW PVP world to sustain and give profit to a big budget MMO?

 

Not really. 

 

 

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

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