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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » How would a PVE sandbox be that different?

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60 posts found
  iixviiiix

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 447

5/03/14 11:52:03 AM#21

PVE sandbox ? wasn't it just player versus environment to gather materials to craft and build ?

Sandbox ? it all about gather the "sand" to build something.

 

I used to misunderstand the term before ,

but now it clean . Sandbox is all about the free to build something from the sand ,

PVE , PVP are just part of sand gather , you don't even need PVP in the Sandbox game.

 

Sandbox term get add in anything just because people tired of WOW style themepark and want something that they believe difference.

  hammarus

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/11/10
Posts: 178

5/03/14 12:01:42 PM#22

Sandbox: consequences. ownership. choice.

                           vs.

Themepark: story line, empowerment, hero worship.

 

The differences between the two forms has zero to do with whether a game has PVE,  PVP, raiding, etc.  These are just delivery systems.

  YoungCaesar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/08/13
Posts: 224

5/03/14 12:40:38 PM#23

A sandbox without pvp doesnt work very well. For one the economy is fueled by the pvpers, who constantly use armors/weapons and lose them in battle, only to get re stocked by the crafters. If no one is losing anything, then there is no money flow.

There cant be any form of territory control, if you cant defend your lands or invade someone else. Also, like Minecraft has proven (altho its a bit more manageable there with multiple player owned servers), there is not enuff land for everyone to build their epic city, the end result is the world looking a like a huge suburbia. I guess some ppl are just into building and dont want to defend them from attacks, but what could give more meaning to pvp than having to defend your own custom made city from a siege, so EPIC lol

  User Deleted
 
OP  5/03/14 12:43:30 PM#24
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 

 



I hope your try at keeping what "sandbox" means works :)

 

Boats: What difference do you see between PvE boats and PvP boats? I see none, except for the "things" attacking it.

What I colored yellow in your post about combat...
Combat is not the primary activity in all video games. It is the main activity in combat oriented games and MMOs lately. RPGs have become more and more combat oriented in the past few years, thanks in part to the influx of combat oriented players now looking to RPGs. I have never fought anyone while playing SimCity, 1830 (a railroad game), Tetris, Farmville, or any sports game. In Master of Magic (my favorite game of all time), combat is small portion of the game. Collecting resources to build cities and spell research are 2 other, more important activities.

Combat has become the "easy to do" fallback for video games. Look at the number of PvPers that can not grasp doing any activity in a video game other than combat. They are hell-bent on saying that there can be nothing else to do in an MMO if their is no PvP. What narrow views they have.

When I played City of Heroes, "Costume Contests" were a popular PvE competition, thanks to their highly involved character creator.

Healers many times have competitions amongst themselves by not letting a group-mate die. In the old MMOs, Guilds would many times set up "healing camps" outside of popular open world dungeons.

Again, in City of Heroes, I was associated with a Super Group (thank you Sisterhood!) that ran timed Task Force Races. These were loads of fun. They would give out prizes to the fastest teams.

Competition in the PvE environment can still happen without beating other players' brains in, or getting your brains bashed. Competition in Crafting Goods is a big one. Trying to create the best items of a type can be a great competition. This also celebrates player differences, so no balance needed. Mages can be great at enchanting. Warriors may be excel at Smithing. A Ranger/Woodsman type could be good at working with wood. A Cleric type may excel at making potions.

"Farm-Fest" can be a terrible MMO design. It happens in both PvP and PvE settings. Farm for the good gear (both PvE and PvP), farm PvP matches to climb a ladder or improve ranking, or even farm objectives in PvP.

Adding what you listed in GW2 or ESO would make them last longer. Giving players something to do that is NOT "leveling focused" keeps them playing longer. They level slower and when they hit cap, they find fun (hopefully) in so many more activities than leveling, which is what combat is really all about.

In GW2, the first person to reach level 80 (in 1 day, I think) did it through crafting, NOT combat. Especially not PvP.

Your second to last paragraph leads me to believe that you view combat as THE source of fun. I have no problem with that :) Sure, the other activities may be fun, FOR AWHILE, but basically you seek the kill, kill, and kill some more experience, like most other MMO players. Adding in PvP can give variances to this experience. I understand. Butg for the few players that do not look to MMOs for fighting simulators, they could be so much more :)

But combat is indeed what most players want to do, in my honest opinion. I love all those features too btw. If all i wanted was to pvp, i'd play an FPS right now. And while it's true that there are games, like Divona point out, that don't have combat, i personally believe that people see as their primary activity that they want mixed with other stuff. Isn't a Tale in the Desert combat free, btw?

 

Also, your costume contest can be done in GW2, easily (and i love it). Their wardrobe system is quite robust. And time trials do exist for many players in certain themeparks. 

The reason i'm asking this is because i see some people say that "sandboxes" like AA and BD are ruined by their owpvp aspect. But what i'm wondering is, if you remove it, how does it become any different from other standart mmos?

On the PVE side of things, if it requires a human present to control it, it'll probably be too costly. If it's too hard, grindy, long, etc, like i hear EQ1 was, players will not be happy.

On the non combat side of things, it can be put into any mmorpg. So, if GW2 added all of AA's features, would that make players want to play it? And would it add that much longevity? I mean, Rift as an incredible housing system, but people aren't flocking to it. Same with WS. How many features do themeparks need to be considered sandboxes like a pve-free AA?

 

The only difference i can see is AI that destroys open world player houses, cities, can increase taxes, costs, and literally alter the entire experience to make it either harder or easier. The obvious issue is most players would hate it. RIFT's rifts destroying quest hubs was already a massive cause for anger.

And even then, because of AI's limited scripting, it's highly likely players would find out the pattern, weak spots, etc, and "control" it like in with GW2's farm zergs. Or maybe it would just lose it's shiny new factor once players have seen it enough times, again, like in GW2.

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 2945

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

5/05/14 11:27:01 AM#25


Originally posted by DEAD.line
But combat is indeed what most players want to do, in my honest opinion. I love all those features too btw. If all i wanted was to pvp, i'd play an FPS right now. And while it's true that there are games, like Divona point out, that don't have combat, i personally believe that people see as their primary activity that they want mixed with other stuff. Isn't a Tale in the Desert combat free, btw?

Also, your costume contest can be done in GW2, easily (and i love it). Their wardrobe system is quite robust. And time trials do exist for many players in certain themeparks. 

The reason i'm asking this is because i see some people say that "sandboxes" like AA and BD are ruined by their owpvp aspect. But what i'm wondering is, if you remove it, how does it become any different from other standart mmos?

On the PVE side of things, if it requires a human present to control it, it'll probably be too costly. If it's too hard, grindy, long, etc, like i hear EQ1 was, players will not be happy.

On the non combat side of things, it can be put into any mmorpg. So, if GW2 added all of AA's features, would that make players want to play it? And would it add that much longevity? I mean, Rift as an incredible housing system, but people aren't flocking to it. Same with WS. How many features do themeparks need to be considered sandboxes like a pve-free AA?

The only difference i can see is AI that destroys open world player houses, cities, can increase taxes, costs, and literally alter the entire experience to make it either harder or easier. The obvious issue is most players would hate it. RIFT's rifts destroying quest hubs was already a massive cause for anger.

And even then, because of AI's limited scripting, it's highly likely players would find out the pattern, weak spots, etc, and "control" it like in with GW2's farm zergs. Or maybe it would just lose it's shiny new factor once players have seen it enough times, again, like in GW2.



Trying to keep to short replies. After a couple of long, point by point replies, I'm trying again :)

Combat is what mot gamers want. I enjoy good combat, too. Some just do not want it being 80-95% of the gameplay. If you think about it, combat is how players get experience and level up. The more they fight, the quicker they hit level cap.

The Costume Contest example was a poor one, I admit. Almost any MMO out players could run this kind of activity :)

ArchAge and Black Desert would be very different MMOs without PvP. Whether they would still be fun or not is up to the individual player.

The main thing for me is this: I want a relaxing game experience when I sit down to log in. PvP is the worst method for giving me this. I do not want to be looking over my shoulder all the time. There are enough dickwads playing online games that I do not want to give them a chance to mess up my own game playing time.

I'd like to know that when I log out one day, what I accomplished that day will still be there when I log in again, even if it is 2 weeks later. I realize that many players will say that this ruins realism, but for me, that is a step too far into reality.

For me, AI Mobs fights are enough for me. They do not get butthurt if I win. Some of them can be quite tough. I feel like I have more control of where and when I fight them, instead of being another player's Mob.

I hope that made sense :)

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10427

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

5/05/14 11:31:48 AM#26
Originally posted by YoungCaesar

A sandbox without pvp doesnt work very well. For one the economy is fueled by the pvpers, who constantly use armors/weapons and lose them in battle, only to get re stocked by the crafters. If no one is losing anything, then there is no money flow.

There cant be any form of territory control, if you cant defend your lands or invade someone else. Also, like Minecraft has proven (altho its a bit more manageable there with multiple player owned servers), there is not enuff land for everyone to build their epic city, the end result is the world looking a like a huge suburbia. I guess some ppl are just into building and dont want to defend them from attacks, but what could give more meaning to pvp than having to defend your own custom made city from a siege, so EPIC lol

 

A Tale in the Desert has no combat, and they have territory control that seems to work just fine.  They are also a long running Sandbox game.

 

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Kuinn

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/10/11
Posts: 1980

5/05/14 12:10:47 PM#27
Originally posted by DEAD.line

Since defining sandbox is so hard, let's keep that out of the thread.

how would a pve version of any mmorpg with sandbox features, be any different from all other themeparks? 

 

 

Lets see, in sandbox game (assuming it's not a themepark style level grind) I could go where ever I want right from the beginning (like in Skyrim for example). I could build a house, or a town with the help of others. There could possibly be features for you to impact on the actual geography of the world, dig and build a mine for your town for example.

 

Varied content would be all over the place for people to discover at their own pace and ability. Dynamic AI to launch mob raids on towns, there could be themed events like orc tribe trying to conquer part of the map, or a rampaging giant at other times etc. Weather effects that affect gameplay, like the need for warm clothes to adventure in frozen areas etc.

 

Now lets take a look at a themepark. You're 1st goal is to get to max level. Usually you level up in a straight line to max level, devour all content in the way, and crap out the devoured content from behind which is obsolete and out leveled now.  You hit max level, there you have a tiny end game pocket to operate on, handful of raids (grinding for gear to be able to grind more gear) and some obsolete "normal" dungeons. You sit there until devs give you more heroine.. I mean content, to devour though in a straight line again. Expansion hits, repeat.

 

So what's the difference? In my sandbox example I immerse my self into the world, and basically start playing the game just like I want right away, maybe as a settler/builder, maybe a hunter for rare beasts or explorer, maybe part of a town militia? In the themepark example I do what you do in themepark, get to max level and then grind for gear in small end-game certified content pocket.

 

So my question is, what's same or similar in pve-sandbox with pve-themepark? Not much, perhaps the fact that you do combat at times (not a neccesity in sandbox) like you do in almost every game anyway.

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4717

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

5/05/14 12:20:43 PM#28
Look at istaria or at its for examples of sandbox mmo without pvp

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4717

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

5/05/14 12:21:22 PM#29
At its = atitd

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  kikosforever

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/02/14
Posts: 397

5/05/14 12:22:54 PM#30
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by Gadareth

Sandbox PVE requires several factors. Firstly it needs continous development by the developer to keep content fresh. Secondly it needs multiple things people can choose to work for.

SWG did this well with its class and crafting system where you could constantly readdress your class to keep it fresh. The crafting and harvesting system which was active and involved.

EQ1 with its EPIC quests and large dungeons where the rewards gained were worth the effort to get them.

 

See what I mean...


+1

  Greymantle4

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 676

5/05/14 12:27:05 PM#31
Originally posted by DEAD.line

Combat is the primary activity in mmos, and video games, so we either fight the AI or other players.

You lost me right here. Combat is not the primary feature I would attach to a sandbox game. A player economy is the primary feature I would attach to a sandbox game.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17010

5/05/14 12:31:39 PM#32
Originally posted by DEAD.line
 

The reason i'm asking this is because i see some people say that "sandboxes" like AA and BD are ruined by their owpvp aspect. But what i'm wondering is, if you remove it, how does it become any different from other standart mmos?

That's easy, you get a game that is more of a world where players decide what they do as opposed to being led around by quests and quest hubs.

One could work consensual pvp into it and various perks and rewards for those who participate.

  Spawnblade

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/02/05
Posts: 196

5/05/14 12:43:08 PM#33

1.  Sandboxes require player interaction on an equal level to any interaction that exists between players and their environment.  What I mean by this is, if I, as a player, can kill an NPC, I should be able to kill a PC.  Freedom, after all, is the foundation and definition of a sandbox.

 

2.  PvE sandboxes exist.  The most famous is called Second Life.  Excuse me, I mean... non-combat sandboxes exist.  You're not really 'against' anything, and thus you're merely engaging with AI and people on a massive social platform.

 

3.  Anyone who differentiates between PvP and PvE is flat out wrong.  I don't care if they're only for PvP or only for PvE.  In any sandbox, the two should not be referenced as different things.  In a true sandbox, everyone is simply part of a living, breathing world, without outside, artificial tags laying a different groundwork for either.  Anyone still stuck in the 'PvP' or 'PvE' mentality, playing a true sandbox, has some unresolved issues with other MMOs that they can't let go and are coloring their judgment. 

  Whiplash931

Novice Member

Joined: 6/08/06
Posts: 36

5/05/14 1:06:06 PM#34

I totally get why people don't want PvP in a sandbox. If you spend time building something and then someone just comes through and destroys it, well it would make most people not even bother to play. With that said though a sandbox to me would be really boring without any risk.

Ok let me play out a scenario of how a sandbox game should get people to interact. You decide you want to be a crafter/gatherer and have no interest in PvP combat at all. Well you need to get this rare material to create this awesome armor set to sell and make tons of cash. Sure you can go out to that dangerous area, but you will most likely run into some bandits (Other players) so you decide to hire some mercenaries to protect you while you go on your adventure. Who knows you may run into some other players...or you may not......but if you do you have your gaurds to protect you. It is a win/win situation for everyone involved. The PvPers get to engage in PvP with people that will put up some kind of a challenge and the PvEer gets what he/she wants. If you don't run into anyone its all good because  your mercenaries got compensated for their time with money.

 

The above scenario is one of countless that you could do. This type of gameplay is good for both the PvPers and PvEers. In these types of situations it makes players need each other to accomplish their goals or atleast has the potential to and isn't that what MMORPGs are supposed to be about. 

 

So IMO if you don't want to PvP fine you don't have to, but just because you don't want to PvP doesn't mean that you should force your playstyle on others. The most fun aspects of a sandbox game to me are freedom, risk vs reward, and socializing with other players. In recent years we as gamers have lost these qualities in our MMORPGs.

  Kuinn

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/10/11
Posts: 1980

5/05/14 1:13:09 PM#35
Originally posted by Spawnblade

1.  Sandboxes require player interaction on an equal level to any interaction that exists between players and their environment.  What I mean by this is, if I, as a player, can kill an NPC, I should be able to kill a PC.  Freedom, after all, is the foundation and definition of a sandbox.

 

2.  PvE sandboxes exist.  The most famous is called Second Life.  Excuse me, I mean... non-combat sandboxes exist.  You're not really 'against' anything, and thus you're merely engaging with AI and people on a massive social platform.

 

3.  Anyone who differentiates between PvP and PvE is flat out wrong.  I don't care if they're only for PvP or only for PvE.  In any sandbox, the two should not be referenced as different things.  In a true sandbox, everyone is simply part of a living, breathing world, without outside, artificial tags laying a different groundwork for either.  Anyone still stuck in the 'PvP' or 'PvE' mentality, playing a true sandbox, has some unresolved issues with other MMOs that they can't let go and are coloring their judgment. 

1. To me a sandbox means a lot less restrictions if compared to themepark, and a lot more features when it comes to interacting with the world. There can be different kinds of sandboxes, they dont have to have some internet-certified must-have-all-these-features list to qualify.

 

A sandbox game does not mean it absolutely has to have city building in it, or absolutely has to have terrain transformation in it, or absolutely has to have pvp in it. It does not lose the definition of sandbox just by missing one feature that often comes up in sandbox discussions.

 

 

3. Or they just prefer different play styles. This is solved by having servers with different rulesets, it means more work for the dev studio, but also bigger audience. It does not take anything away from either of the fans of the different rulesets so I dont understand why the pvp crowd always attacks those who asks for a pve server in a sandbox game.

  Nemesis7884

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/21/10
Posts: 458

5/05/14 1:16:03 PM#36
i think the ai technology is not far enough to create an interesting pve only sandbox...
  Apraxis

Elite Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1438

5/05/14 4:00:03 PM#37
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

Combat has become the "easy to do" fallback for video games. Look at the number of PvPers that can not grasp doing any activity in a video game other than combat. They are hell-bent on saying that there can be nothing else to do in an MMO if their is no PvP. What narrow views they have.

Ohh.. come on.. now we as PvP players are blamed for having only combat oriented MMO Games nowadays? Really? And if tomorrow would be the worlds end i guess it would be the fault of the pvp player, right?

In all honestly.. most pvp player do like a lot of other activities beside combat.. like building a house, like crafting things, like exploring the world, like build up a trading empire.. but, when it comes down to combat we usually can't stand very long any mobs.. they become to predictable to fast, and especially in MMOs they usually don't do anything and just stand there to be slaugthered.. and therefore.. we look for other player to fight against.. they are not that predictable, they usually stand not still there until they are slaughtered and even more important it exist the posiblility that we actually lose a fight. Hah.

And by the way.. i am one of those stubborn pvp players which are not willingly to limit pvp just to combat. How boring is that?

PvP can be about trading, building up a commercial and logistic empire. It can be about city building.. build a profitable, self sufficient city to become that cultural and economical centre of a region. It can be about strategic desicions, about tactics, not so much the one on one combat, or combat at all, but more about warfare. It can be about diplomatics, about intrugue to gain more influence than anyone else..

In all honestly.. you are right at least in one point.. for a pvp player it is always more fun to play with and against other players instead of an AI. But what game, what tools we play with and against other players is a complete different topic and completely not limited to combat only. So.. sorry, NO, we pvp players are not to blame for those simpified combat only games.

  Apraxis

Elite Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1438

5/05/14 4:29:06 PM#38
Originally posted by Divona

You just have to understand that combat and competition, while it maybe the main attraction to you, it may not be what attracted other people. Especially when it come to PvP, it could be a main disruption to other people who want to stay from engaging in unexpected fight while they're doing other things that they find fun in the game.

What you so call "side features" can be so much more if the game would focus to develop them as one of the activities players can engage in. PvE players wanted a virtual world where they can safely living in, having occupations that help developing such world, not just being a warrior beating up each others on end to see who come out on top. The reason why people in real world chosen to be many things rather than take career in army.

It's also why the game such as The Sims, SimCity, Banished, FarmVille exist. There is no combat in those games, yet people are having fun. You may not play them, but there are also many others who enjoy them. The feeling of seeing things grow around them day by day can also give out sense of achievement.

There are also emotional state that involving in PvP games that PvE players want to avoid, that is the feeling of being loser. Not everyone want to be on the losing side, especially players who does not want to participating in combat, what else can they do to help their side win the war while stay safe?

Imagine when you're building a sand castle by the beach for hours on end, and then 3-4 other guys come and smash it all down and left laughing. Those 3-4 other guys may find it funny, but the person who spent hours on end carefully crafted their creation is left with nothing but ruin. What PvE players want is a safe area where they are free from PvP players to come and ruined their day, and disrupting their pace of control environment.

If you want PvE players to enjoy in PvP games, as you said balance is the key. The game can not focus their main development toward one or another type of gameplay. While they are war going on at the borders, PvE players should be able to support the cause of front line PvP players on their side without the need to go near PvP combat. So far in PvP focus games, combat often always the main solution to end all war.

I fully understand you. And you like lizardbones before (at least from my understanding, correct me if i am wrong) looking for a sandbox with dynamic behavior and pvp, but more predictable, and withit avoidable pvp.

If you are not.. i tell you a few limits of those sandbox elements you presented in a persistent multiplayer environment.. because those elements(SimCity and all Building, Econimc Simulations like Banished, like Anno, like Minecraft) are more or less limited to single player or non persistents world.. where if you build up your world and it became static you either reset it, or start in a new world. With other words those games/worlds do have a dynamic behaivor as long as you are building things up, but at some point everything is build, your world is full at it may become static.

You have basicly two options to avoid this

a) pvp. And better a more complex pvp system

b) pve. Like natural disasters to destroy randomly things. Or NPC evil factions conquering/destroying randomly player cities and so on.

I personally don't know any MMO with a more or less funtional solution of b).. but it could be interesting... most nowadays pve sandboxes are in most cases ever crowing worlds where you build up, if everything is build add more land.. but ultimately it becomes full, and over time boring. I am really eager to see how landmark will solve this problem.. as it looks now.. just umlimited adding new servers.. but that will not really work to build living communities. But we will see.

Minecraft does have a 2fold solution. Private servers with different server sets. If your world is full.. reset it, build a new one.. or do a survival one with players building and destroying (changing) the world.

I guess OP thought of b) and wanted to know what exactly you would like or how your PvE only sandbox would be.. because SimCity does not work in a persistent multiplayer environment without those limits i described above.

For a) i wrote a somewhere else a post about a server ruleset with pvp, but which could be more predictable, and for pve only players avoidable pvp, without losing the dynamic of pvp, warfare and changing borders and landscapes. I personally would really like to see such a game appear.. although my hopes for such a more complex system are rather tiny..

But here it comes:

Originally posted by Apraxis

What would i like.

Let's call it Territorial Economic Warfare Server.

- Pre set NPC Factions (can be in war with others, allied or in peace.. those state can change at any time)

a few(at least 3, maximum 5) pre set Factions anyone could join(just one Faction per time, leaving one faction will make you traitor to this faction and you will have some penalties; and switching factions should be possible, but difficulty, and with penalties).

Every player should be able to get different positons in that faction, and with any position different kind of priviliges and responsability come with. The highest position would be a member of the war council(lets say there are 13 members, in the beginning just NPCs), which will decide fundamental things like declare war/peace to other factions, raises Taxes, allows lease/sale of land in newly conquered territory and all that stuff. Other positions could be like a city council with authority over a city.

- Player created Factions/Clans.

At the same time it should be possible to create a player faction with similar preset structures like the npc factions, just filled from day one with players, which could arise from huge clans/alliances.

- Conquering Land/Territory (PvP/PvE state)

The overall land should be divided into counties(countship), some free cities and the like. Every county should have his own council to set some local rights, every council does have his own pve/pvp state.

Contested county, full pvp, no faction owns all castles, controls the complete county. Just guards within the range of your owned castle(think DAoC, ESO)

Every border county should be automaticly pvp.. there may be some npc guards depending on how many castles do you have control roaming around the county. (rather long reaction time, beatable guards)

Every county in bordering a border county will be pvp, but with increased protection of guards through different controlling castles/cities. (reaction time of guards will not be immeditately, but rather fast, guards are not completely invinceable, but rather tough)

Every county bordering above will be rather safe(think EvE safe zones) with heavy guards interfering immediately.

Territory/not claimed counties apart from any faction will be wilderness (ffa pvp without any restriction, any consequences, any laws)

Any county can change their state and become any of the above. Security depends closeness to the border and how many building with different effects are in there.. so that any castle will increase roamign guards or power of guards. There could be different building with different effects. (imagine some games like Anno or other strategic games)

- PvP/criminals within a faction

You can theoretically attack anyone. In the so called safe zone(EvE like) you will get caught, and penalized. This may be different things like jail time, fine or to lose faction status(you will be executed and respawn on a wilderness county) depending on the act of crime(stealing, murder, whatever). How much you will be penalized depends on a council(courthouse), which can be occupied from players.. those set laws and the like. (every position is granted for a limited time.. like one month)

In zones with less guards you may get away uncaught, but it will be more difficutly as safer a zone is.(see list above)

PvP/criminal action may range from player killing, pickpocketing, burglary, rioting and similar acts.

- Economy/land allocation/land loss

In the beginning there are a lot of land available for lease/sale. It may either be economically used like to build up a sawmill, lumber camp, farm, mine or whatever imaginable, or for persoanl use to build your home.

Difference between leasing and buying. If you buy land, it is completely yours, but if the county will get conquered it is completely your loss. If you leased a land, you have to pay monthly/weekly for it, but can build whatever you want.

The price will depend on how safe a county is, and can be set up from one council(in the beginning in NPC factions, it will be pre defined). With other words land in a border county will be rather cheap(because of the high risk of losing) and land in the heartland will be rather expensive.

Trading/Resources will be local. You may have something like a local marketplace or auctionhouse(see EvE or anything like that) were you can buy/sell your stuff. Trading goods have to be transported overland, with carriage or the like. Inventory should be limited in size and weight for both player and different mounts.

Appearence of resources will differ from region to region and so may the prices and goods transportation will be required and may be dangerous(depending on the safety of the county).

PS: I may have left out some important parts, but that should be a good starting point for a interesting gameworld. Though i am full aware that it will require a lot of adjustment to the core game, and will be with it more than unlikely to ever happen.

Nevertheless this would be some kind of sandbox pvp server i would like to play in. Any comments are welcome.

 

PPS: I know my english, grammar and spelling sucks.. after all it isn't my first language. So if anyone interested in a similar system, and would like to fix the grammar and spelling you are free to post it on the EQN board.

 

  Apraxis

Elite Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1438

5/05/14 4:34:18 PM#39
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by Xssiv
If you're going to rely on the developer to generate the content and conflict, then you're not really playing a sandbox.

 

If you want the freedom of a sandbox without any consequences, there's always Minecraft.



What load of crap. Developers do not "need" to develop PvE content in a sandbox game. They need to allow players to create their own, and not necessarily PvP. Read through my earlier post for some awesome examples of player created PvE content. Open up the ind, young Padawan :)

 

If you want PvP, there's always Call of Duty. See what I did there? Kind of silly, don't you think?

Yeap.. but those things in your post is not exactly a sandbox... it is more like a themepark with rides other than combat. As example Wildstar added the build your home ride in your personal instance.. but does wildstar become a sandbox, because you can build your home? I don't think so. The same with a simple crafting system. As long as a world stays static it is barely a sandbox.. but maybe you can explain in more detail.. or maybe my imagination of a sandbox is just different and for you wildstar is actually a sandbox.

  Cramit845

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/20/14
Posts: 140

5/05/14 4:53:31 PM#40

Personally, I would love to see a mesh of EQ1 and Age of Wushu.   I think that EQ1 is really one of the truest sandbox games out there.  When you logged in your new character, you didn't have any idea of where to go or what to do.  You had to figure it out, which is very much lacking in todays games.  Now this could be cause of the type of players we have or expectations of players but I think it is something that is sorely missed.  It helped create communication for players (make people ask others how to do things), it also helped foster immersion (there is no instruction manual for life).  I think both of these are actual game mechanics, even though some may really hate them.

Not to mention that EQ1 I think had some of the best OW dungeons.  They were zones unto themselves, but I have never had a problem finding my way in any dungeons without a map, except EQ1.  You can easily get turned around in SolB or lguk/uguk that you are completely in the wrong place and not sure where you are headed.  You didn't have certain tools to help you, like a map that showed your location, or a minimap to show exactly where you were.

EQ1 also had no AH's.  You wanna trade, you need to find where the market is and go and sell your wares.  It wasn't a menu, where you set prices and then go off and do other things, hoping when you get back you made some money.  You had to put time into it, much like selling something in todays world.

There are more from EQ1 that I could go into, but these are just some examples, IMO, that make a PVE sandbox MMO work, which people chalk up now a days, to bad game design, merely cause they don't understand the concept.  Sometimes, it's not a lack of understanding, just not wanting to put that kinda thought/time into a game.  However there are people who want these kind of WORLDS to live in.  This was the main draw of MMO's back in the day, an escape into another WORLD that you could live in for a time for a break from ours.

 

I played Age of Wushu a couple months back and had a real blast playing it.  I think how they did their tradeskill systems, as well as doing, what I will call "mini-quests" at each city for faction/coin/rewards would help as well.  There were certain things, like protecting a trade cart, that gave rep to your guild, to help progress the guild as well as gave you a couple rewards.  There was a base "Story line per your character" that you could do "quests" with, but other wise you had to go out and find the quest givers and not have a specific path to follow. 

There was instanced dungeons, that you could do with a group if you so wanted, with rewards that were worth it.  However, the real draw I think, was the PVP, which was all controlling cities.  If a guild captured multiple cities in a zone they could control taxes at the neutral cities and make money for the guild.  This would be the hardest thing to replicate for a PVE game, but I think one of the above posters had it right.  Make a certain faction/mob empire that is taking over things and now the PVE players have the same type of system.

This would require a very good AI as well as constant updates from the devs, but I think it is something the market is already going towards.  Off the top of my head, EQ:N is trying to do the exact thing, make AI dynamic, automatically in the code.  Boom Done... time will tell if it works, but at least someone is working on it.

 

In all honesty, my whole point, is that I think a lot of the PVE Sandboxes that ppl are asking for have already been partly made, they just need the features to be joined.  Sure not all of it has been made, the AI being the main part that needs to be developed, but I think I made a good enough argument to show that the market is already working on it.  Some of my design decisions may be deal breakers for others, but I think you can see how most of these examples would help create that PVE Sandbox game that some are looking for.

At least I know I am looking for it, time will tell if I'll get it.  Although I'm also looking for a natural successor to EQ1, so full disclosure there..

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