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General Gaming  » First Elder Scrolls Online and now this?!?!?!?!?! Screw Zenimax

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213 posts found
  prowess

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/04/07
Posts: 169

5/01/14 9:46:41 PM#81
Originally posted by Teala
This is why I cannot stand Apple or any of their products.   They litigate the hell out of competition and that is the only way they can stay viable.    I'll never buy anything made by Apple.   Zenimax is playing the same dirty kind of game.    This is going to hurt their image if they pursue this.    They wouldn't have done squat if the sale to Facebook hadn't taken place.  Now that it is has...they are looking to make a money grab - the same thing they did for their game TESO with its stupid paywalls.   Just a greedy frakking tech company is what Zenimax is.

Without defending zenimax, because I abhor them, I'd like to point a few things out...  Apple sues the competition for developing equal or better features as their phones, claiming they saw the features on the iPhone or whatever and stole it, without any technical assistance from apple themselves...  Carmack was a talent that Zenimax employed to research and develop Virtual Reality, Carmack then LEFT them to go work on VR elsewhere.  The situations are not comparable.


I chose the Xfinity speed test because it does not reveal my ISP.

  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 4662

5/01/14 9:50:01 PM#82
Originally posted by SlyLoK

How long did Zenimax try to resolve this? Nearly 2 years?

Looks like some peoples hero turned out to be a thief.. It happens. Get over it.

Oh wow - Zenimax already won this lawsuit after filing it today?

Or you're just following your own "guilty before proven innocent" system, hmm?

 

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5575

5/01/14 9:52:34 PM#83
Originally posted by Azzras
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by Azzras
Originally posted by Xzen
It's called patent trolling. Even if Zenimax is right legally I don't believe in IP so I agree with jury nullification.

You don't believe in intellectual property?

Maybe I should go create a website called MMORPG?

Maybe I should make a game called World of Warcraft?

Those are IPs after all.

What a ridiculous assertion. Should whoever owns Rift and the VR tech behind exclusively be allowed to create VR gear? The patent and IP system is so screwed that it has crippled innovation.

Where do you draw the ridiculous line? He isn't trying to create a VR system that says Zenimax on it is he so you're mmorpg analogy is shallow and short-sighted. By your purile argument people shouldn't be allowed to create websites or games period. He's not stealing an implementation. He's not copying another implementation. He's making his own and the previous company thinks they should have IP rights to the concepts, more specifically that they own rights to his ideas formed while working for them.

How would you like to be sued at your next job, in the same industry, because you're using ideas and tricks you learned at your last place of employment? That is what is going on here and why IP rules in tech are poison at the moment.

For my job, I signed an NDA that explicitly states I shall not use anything provided by my employers...even if I'm the one that created them.  They own the rights.

With that said, the person I quoted said he doesn't believe in IPs.

Say IP is a broad statement.  I SHOULD be sued if I used WoW's name, etc.

Anyway, if this guy didn't like the terms he shouldn't have signed the contract. 

Edit:

And ZM DOES own the rights to anything he created while under their employ.

Like I said, that is where the gray area comes in and our system is broken. Just because we have a broken IP and patent system doesn't mean we should continue to support that system.

I don't believe in exclusive encompassing ownership of ideas and concepts. Specific implementations yes, but not ideas that can be reimplemented in another manner.

Another reason it's gray is because it does sound like he broke his NDA. It also sounds like he left the company because they didn't want to pursue VR tech. It wasn't like they had a master plan and he pulled the rug out from under them. It sounds like they killed the project he was on.

On one hand they didn't pursue this until Rift started to gain momentum which looks bad, but they did pursue it before Facebook offered Occulus stupid amounts of money as a purchase so that looks better for them.

What is interesting is that Facebook had to know about the legal entanglements. Why would they get involved unless they thought they were in the clear.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  kitarad

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 1184

5/01/14 9:54:04 PM#84

The tech that Zenimax is talking about is some computer component duct taped ski goggles.

 

This is from the article  http://www.cnet.com/news/oculus-and-facebook-hit-with-legal-challenge-over-rights-to-rift-technology/

 

It's worth noting that ZeniMax is not claiming that Oculus is violating any VR patents it owns, but rather that the design and development of the Rift headset was substantially aided by Carmack's work, which is owned by ZeniMax. This could make it a murky legal argument. It's not necessarily about the money Oculus has been making -- the company has thus far made about $25.5 million off its Rift developer kits,Recode reports -- but rather could have implications involving future consumer models.

 

How is that headset development linked to some duct taped ski goggles. That is the claim. That is why Carmack saying "Oculus uses zero lines of code that I wrote while under contract to Zenimax," is important.

 

Please remember it is not the VR they are going for it is the design of the headset .The one they will be selling to millions of consumers.

 

 

  BMBender

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/07
Posts: 547

5/01/14 9:57:08 PM#85


Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by Azzras

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by Azzras

Originally posted by Xzen It's called patent trolling. Even if Zenimax is right legally I don't believe in IP so I agree with jury nullification.
You don't believe in intellectual property? Maybe I should go create a website called MMORPG? Maybe I should make a game called World of Warcraft? Those are IPs after all.
What a ridiculous assertion. Should whoever owns Rift and the VR tech behind exclusively be allowed to create VR gear? The patent and IP system is so screwed that it has crippled innovation. Where do you draw the ridiculous line? He isn't trying to create a VR system that says Zenimax on it is he so you're mmorpg analogy is shallow and short-sighted. By your purile argument people shouldn't be allowed to create websites or games period. He's not stealing an implementation. He's not copying another implementation. He's making his own and the previous company thinks they should have IP rights to the concepts, more specifically that they own rights to his ideas formed while working for them. How would you like to be sued at your next job, in the same industry, because you're using ideas and tricks you learned at your last place of employment? That is what is going on here and why IP rules in tech are poison at the moment.
For my job, I signed an NDA that explicitly states I shall not use anything provided by my employers...even if I'm the one that created them.  They own the rights. With that said, the person I quoted said he doesn't believe in IPs. Say IP is a broad statement.  I SHOULD be sued if I used WoW's name, etc. Anyway, if this guy didn't like the terms he shouldn't have signed the contract.  Edit: And ZM DOES own the rights to anything he created while under their employ.
Like I said, that is where the gray area comes in and our system is broken. Just because we have a broken IP and patent system doesn't mean we should continue to support that system.

I don't believe in exclusive encompassing ownership of ideas and concepts. Specific implementations yes, but not ideas that can be reimplemented in another manner.

Another reason it's gray is because it does sound like he broke his NDA. It also sounds like he left the company because they didn't want to pursue VR tech. It wasn't like they had a master plan and he pulled the rug out from under them. It sounds like they killed the project he was on.

On one hand they didn't pursue this until Rift started to gain momentum which looks bad, but they did pursue it before Facebook offered Occulus stupid amounts of money as a purchase so that looks better for them.

What is interesting is that Facebook had to know about the legal entanglements. Why would they get involved unless they thought they were in the clear.



That's my question as well, I can understand an individual overlooking non compete/3rd party clauses that continue to exist even after separation. But Facebook's legal dept. should have seen the red flag before they began finalizing the deal. Either way I see OR tech locked in litigation for the next little/long while.

  psiic

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/03/09
Posts: 566

5/01/14 9:58:36 PM#86
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by psiic

Wow have to side with Zenimax on this one.

 The guy admits the code he used belongs to Zenimax in WRITING. 

The Occulus turns around and says they did nothing wrong using the stolen code.

I mean granted the whole industry is 99% stolen code and concept, but when the designer himself puts in writing the code in question belongs to Zenimax, then a court of law is going to agree.

But hey keep hating on Zenimax for defending their legal rights.

You don't read the articles either do you.

 

Yea I did, but maybe you need to go read the ORIGINAL story not the 15th repost of it. When done with that go read the legal complaint filed.

It is not just Carmack, 3 ex-employees are named in the complaint.  Zenimax has legal documents from all 3 including Carmack stating the code was developed for Zenimax while employed by Zenimax and that they would not share that code with others without express permission of Zenimax.

They immediately shared the code, admit they shared the code, admit the code belongs to Zenimax, but the developers are claiming the code is not protected by intellectual rights because they never filed patent on it.

It is a totally invalid argument with no legal precedence to stand on.

Oculus stole the code flat out and their legal defense is to try and smear the legal owners of the code publically.

 

Not to mention all the kickstarter supporters that are now fucked by the facebook deal. I am seriously waiting for the class action lawsuit from kickstarter supporters for breach of  "implied " contract.

  Panzerbase

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/20/13
Posts: 431

5/01/14 9:58:51 PM#87
Well I guess we have a new contender for worst company on Wall Street and I have a new reason not to touch ESO, regardless of how good or bad it is. LET THE GAMES BEGIN!
  Strayfe

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/30/07
Posts: 180

"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
"Nobody provokes me with impunity."

5/01/14 10:00:51 PM#88

Zenimax is a bunch of cash-hungry wallet warriors.  No surprise there.  I think the more depressing thing, which I didn't realize until now is that Facecrook, the God-King of money grubbing, terrible corporations, is buying Oculus Rift, so we can expect zero progress, a $2,500.00 price tag, and the system to deliver all of your personal information, including brainwave activity directly to Mark Suckerberg.

Just a terrible story all around.  I would have thought John Carmack would have had more balls than to sell out like that.  Seriously, if I could wave a magic wand and delete one thing from existence, it would be Facebook.

  kitarad

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 1184

5/01/14 10:00:56 PM#89

psiic it is not the VR they want its the headset. They not interested in contesting the VR they are claiming the design of the headset was aided by Carmack .They are interested in the future production of the headset not the VR associated. They will not fight the patent so even if Carmack developed the VR tech and used  code he developed while at Zen which he denies BTW it is the headset physical design that Zen wants a part of.

 

Mind you Zenimax was offered an equity in Occulus which they turned down. "Three months after Luckey signed the NDA, and a month before the Kickstarter launch, Oculus even offered ZeniMax equity, but those negotiations fell through."

 

They want in on the physical design of the headset  .

  BMBender

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/07
Posts: 547

5/01/14 10:08:43 PM#90


Originally posted by kitarad
psiic it is not the VR they want its the headset. They not interested in contesting the VR they are claiming the design of the headset was aided by Carmack .They are interested in the future production of the headset not the VR associated. They will not fight the patent so even if Carmack developed the VR tech and used  code he developed while at Zen which he denies BTW it is the headset physical design that Zen wants a part of.

Some of that I'm sure is it's usually easier to prove/disprove Hware migration than software.
EDIT
If your correct about the 50% offer that would also explain limiting the suit to the headset as well. If true that was basically an offer of 1st refusal to Zen witch just makes this whole thing even murkier :D
/EDIT

  kitarad

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 1184

5/01/14 10:11:44 PM#91

Seriously duct taped ski goggles? That was the stolen tech .Computer components duct taped to ski goggles.

ZeniMax is claiming that the prototype -- a pair of ski goggles affixed to computer components with duct tape -- served as the basis for the Rift.

 

 

Sorry it was equity not sure of percentage. I made a mistake on saying it was 50%

  Omali

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/16/09
Posts: 1093

5/01/14 10:20:10 PM#92
Originally posted by Thornrage
Since Zenimax tried to settle before the Facebook buyout, would think they might have more of leg to stand on here than you are accepting.

You're pitting logic against the cesspool of hate that is this forum, and you're going to lose. 

  NagilumSadow

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/26/12
Posts: 242

5/01/14 10:25:09 PM#93
Too bad Zenimax cannot capitalize on the drama, as the drama is better than TESO thus far. 


http://wyrdgaming.blogspot.com/

  kitarad

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 1184

5/01/14 10:26:14 PM#94

Zenimax did not try to settle that is not correct it was Occulus who offered them equity which Zen turned down. Yes you can report that as trying to settle but that would not be accurate.

 

Three months after Luckey signed the NDA, and a month before the Kickstarter launch, Oculus even offered ZeniMax equity, but those negotiations fell through.

  Pogoant

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/11/10
Posts: 9

5/01/14 11:26:20 PM#95

So...A person works for a company and reinvents the mouse trap in his spare time at his/her own expense.  That person sells the product for a crap ton of money.  At the same time said person works for a corporation so he/she can pay they're own light bill.  Said person also signed an agreement saying they are not allowed to do that even if it's not a related product (in short, and happens all the time, I have signed several myself).  Thats because said person may have used company time to develop that product, think about that product while on the clock or used company resources to make that product.

 

The point is:

Corporations do that kind of **** everyday ( just incase by the off chance they do hire a genius).  For example, A factory worker making lug nuts all day re-invents a mouse trap, sells idea for a bunch of money or quits to starts his own business. However he signed an "agreement" saying that any of his idea's are lug nut factory company property.....sorry dude, you are now SOL.

The corporation sues the **** outa the person, steals his/her mouse trap and money and makes a crap ton more money than they already make buy acquiring a great new product.

Contracts like that should be unlawful plain and simple.  But they arn't.  And can you prove that you didn't use company time or resources to come up with the idea, even to day dream about it for a second or two while you were on or off the clock?

Now, in this case....it's gonna be a tough one.  Same product just a different version or name even.  It would be interesting to see the actual court case instead of a media artical...which is a whole different story I'm sure.

  BMBender

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/07
Posts: 547

5/01/14 11:44:08 PM#96


Originally posted by Pogoant
So...A person works for a company and reinvents the mouse trap in his spare time at his/her own expense.  That person sells the product for a crap ton of money.  At the same time said person works for a corporation so he/she can pay they're own light bill.  Said person also signed an agreement saying they are not allowed to do that even if it's not a related product (in short, and happens all the time, I have signed several myself).  Thats because said person may have used company time to develop that product, think about that product while on the clock or used company resources to make that product.

 

The point is:

Corporations do that kind of **** everyday ( just incase by the off chance they do hire a genius).  For example, A factory worker making lug nuts all day re-invents a mouse trap, sells idea for a bunch of money or quits to starts his own business. However he signed an "agreement" saying that any of his idea's are lug nut factory company property.....sorry dude, you are now SOL.

The corporation sues the **** outa the person, steals his/her mouse trap and money and makes a crap ton more money than they already make buy acquiring a great new product.

Contracts like that should be unlawful plain and simple.  But they arn't.  And can you prove that you didn't use company time or resources to come up with the idea, even to day dream about it for a second or two while you were on or off the clock?

Now, in this case....it's gonna be a tough one.  Same product just a different version or name even.  It would be interesting to see the actual court case instead of a media artical...which is a whole different story I'm sure.



the whole point is it remains staggeringly unclear that he did indeed "build this mousetrap" entirely on his own dime and completely in his spare time.. Also consider his contract with ZEN when he worked for them was for exactly this area of tech. It raises doubt that Zen owned resources weren't at some point contributive to the current OR tech. to one degree or other. How much or how little I couldn't even speculate.

  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 4662

5/01/14 11:52:05 PM#97

 

Facebook > Zenimax 

That's what it will come down to as $$$$$$ > $ 

and that's how justice system works.

 

 

  fyerwall

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 3197

5/02/14 12:14:18 AM#98
Originally posted by Pogoant

So...A person works for a company and reinvents the mouse trap in his spare time at his/her own expense.  That person sells the product for a crap ton of money.  At the same time said person works for a corporation so he/she can pay they're own light bill.  Said person also signed an agreement saying they are not allowed to do that even if it's not a related product (in short, and happens all the time, I have signed several myself).  Thats because said person may have used company time to develop that product, think about that product while on the clock or used company resources to make that product.

 

The point is:

Corporations do that kind of **** everyday ( just incase by the off chance they do hire a genius).  For example, A factory worker making lug nuts all day re-invents a mouse trap, sells idea for a bunch of money or quits to starts his own business. However he signed an "agreement" saying that any of his idea's are lug nut factory company property.....sorry dude, you are now SOL.

The corporation sues the **** outa the person, steals his/her mouse trap and money and makes a crap ton more money than they already make buy acquiring a great new product.

Contracts like that should be unlawful plain and simple.  But they arn't.  And can you prove that you didn't use company time or resources to come up with the idea, even to day dream about it for a second or two while you were on or off the clock?

Now, in this case....it's gonna be a tough one.  Same product just a different version or name even.  It would be interesting to see the actual court case instead of a media artical...which is a whole different story I'm sure.

Thing is with said contracts you can clear yourself of obligations by first allowing said company the chance to take on the product. If they refuse you can then take the item to market so long as it was not created using proprietary resources and is not an item of substantial equivalency to something produced/under research by said company. Getting a signed rejection is also a good way to go. 

Example: Your lug nut working making a mouse trap.

Now in a case where someone was to say work for Bic in R&D-Pen Division and in his off time created a pen using methods/procedures from current research he was working on at Bic, quit his job and then sell the new pen to Papermate, then yes, there is grounds for legal action.He was employed/contracted by Bic to research/design a pen, left his job and sold a 'pen' to a rival company, never giving Bic the chance to accept or decline a product that could have been developed using even the smallest part of their proprietary research. And being a pen, it is a substantial equivalent of their current product. It all boils down to what sort of agreement was signed.

There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"


  GrayGhost79

Novice Member

Joined: 8/30/08
Posts: 4888

5/02/14 12:17:15 AM#99

After digging around it looks like this is clearly in favor of Zenimax. 

"Up until November 2013 Carmack was still employed by ZeniMax as a programmer, despite having taken the position of Oculus CTO in August 2013."

"Carmack wasn't always so optimistic. After connecting with Oculus Rift creator Palmer Luckey on a 3D messaging forum, Luckey sent Carmack a prototype.

"Carmack hot-glued a tracking sensor and duct-taped a ski goggle strap onto the prototype and tweaked a version of Doom 3 so that it played on the headset. Since demonstrating that in private sessions at the 2012 Electronic Entertainment Expo in L.A, Carmack has improved the image quality and head tracking."

 

While he was working at Zenimax he was working on the prototype for Oculus among other things. He worked on software for Oculus as well, while still employeed by Zenimax he took a position at Oculus. It's pretty cut and dry, he developed software and technology while working for Zenimax that he used to further the Rift Oculus. Zenimax clearly has a case and it is a pretty cut and dry one at that. 

"John's early experiments with the Rift put Oculus on the map and helped create an amazing amount of momentum around virtual reality," Luckey, 21, said when Carmack joined the company.

The yellow is referring to work he did while employeed by Zenimax... 

 

Sorry guys and gals, it is what it is. Follow the time lines, look at the information available and it's pretty easy to see. 

 

As far as money grabs go... I think a company like facebook that had no hand in the creation or helped with even the idea phase of things trying to cash in is a money grab. A company attempting to get compensated for work one of it's employees did while on their payroll is a far cry from what I would consider a money grab. 

  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 5091

5/02/14 12:21:31 AM#100

Well, there goes Zenimax's credibility, it would be a good time for Bethesda to distance themselves from Zenimax as much as possible now, maybe even disenfranchise them perhaps? as they really don't want to be tarred with the same brush thats going to be hitting Zenimax. Player dislike of companies that pull those kinds of shenanigans is usually substantial, and given how badly ESO launched, its probably the dumbest thing they could do, its PR suicide, EA etc must be laughing their socks off, as their probably telling themselves that 'hey at least we're not going to be the most hated company in America this year!'

 If this is the kind of behaviour that we can expect from Zenimax, then i hope their not too surprised at all the hate that is going to be heading their way, because the 'dislike' they generated over their launching ESO too early and with too many bugs, is going to be nothing compared to the hate generated by the company itself over this, what are they going to do next, go round drowning puppies and kicking peoples grannies? are they insane

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