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Developers Corner 

PvP Discussion  » PK penalty

9 posts found
  Papajahat

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/10/09
Posts: 37

 
OP  5/05/10 1:02:41 AM#1

any idea of good pk penalty system in open world pvp mmo? not to deter pvp but griefing and camping

1 accumulate pk point and chance to drop item when killed

2 send pk'er to area where they have to fight their way out. journey would take some time and hard battle.

3 send them to jail and have to do some labour work. get some gold + xp while doing that

4 only get pk point if kill lowbies and same person 3 times

 

it also bother me that a pk'er always penalized to defend themself and the attacker can pk him without any penalty. need some risk if you want to be a hero. sometimes you get marked accidently.

thx in advance.

  GTwander

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/09
Posts: 6125

LARPer Hunter

5/11/10 9:34:01 PM#2

The best way, IMO, is to divide the map into places where you can PvP, and where you can't. This is best applied to an open-world kind of game, where the PvP areas are the best routes around the world, and avoiding them means taking the long-road. EVE does this, but I am leaning more towards how Anarchy Online does it. The world is still zoned by all means, but entering one raises a prompt that says "suppression field at 75% (etc)", and the extent of that determines whether PvE mobs can attack you, as well as other players.

There doesn't need to be a penalty if there are just dedicated (and lawless) places to PvP in. It's the player's fault for entering them.

Writer / Musician / Game Designer

Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  Papajahat

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/10/09
Posts: 37

 
OP  5/11/10 11:01:51 PM#3

the problem in pk is during leveling stage where high lvl goes to lower zone and ganking. not much complain if both side are from same tier. something needs to done to control wolf and sheep population.

another problem is griefing when the attacker not have any intention to actual pk but to disturb other ppl pve'ing. mob training and such coz usually ppl do not lose xp from pvp but from pve.

i'm of the opinion bad action must be penalized. not too harsh but only to make him aware of the consequences. another thing to consider about the penalty as per my original post is not too 1 sided. those who want to be righteous also need some risk.

in my game concept, if you choose dark magic as your skill choice, you need to pk to get sort of regent to do their stuff. 

as for zone, only starting zone is non-pk. zone would be sufficient for 1/3 of total lvl cap.

  GTwander

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/09
Posts: 6125

LARPer Hunter

5/11/10 11:15:09 PM#4
Originally posted by Papajahat

the problem in pk is during leveling stage where high lvl goes to lower zone and ganking. not much complain if both side are from same tier. something needs to done to control wolf and sheep population.

another problem is griefing when the attacker not have any intention to actual pk but to disturb other ppl pve'ing. mob training and such coz usually ppl do not lose xp from pvp but from pve.

i'm of the opinion bad action must be penalized. not too harsh but only to make him aware of the consequences. another thing to consider about the penalty as per my original post is not too 1 sided. those who want to be righteous also need some risk.

in my game concept, if you choose dark magic as your skill choice, you need to pk to get sort of regent to do their stuff. 

as for zone, only starting zone is non-pk. zone would be sufficient for 1/3 of total lvl cap.

 

First of all, it's always been a dumb outlook to focus heavily on PvP when there's a huge progression gap. People like the feeling of leveling up, but you are never going to find the kind of PvP balance everyone seeks in a game where each ding puts other players entirely out of your league. The best route is to disguise ancillary skills as progression; ranks, utility skills (tracking, crafts, etc), and new combat abilities that do not scale, as much as they spread laterally. For instance; you don't need gun-toting abilites to scale in damage or ease of usage (accuracy, etc), you just need 'situational' usages like richochets, feeding the muzzle full for a big hit, or having a full-auto hammer to waste a clip fast while active. All these things can unlock over time, and none give a direct advantage over another without the proper circumstances. That's a base philosophy that should apply to all PvP-centric games.

Second, if you have areas that are PvP-enabled, and others that are not - you don't throw PvE where it's not wanted. The best PvE should not have to make you contend with PKers to get to it, and the best resources should not make you look over your shoulder as well. On the other hand, PvP areas need an incentive for risking being there, even when you don't intend to PvP. This can just be the speed of getting around the world, as my prior point where staying safe means going out of your way... and while I don't think PvP areas should have exclusive resources, they should have abundant ones.

If your concept's main draw is a penalization/punishment system for PKing, you need to really think about what constitutes an 'unlawful PK'. Like if two people are actually seeking PvP and equal in status, or not, because sometimes lowbs team up for a challamge and too many games will just penalize the victim. This is why I suggest the zoning system because you don't have to be taking the risks, but that could sidestep everything you are going for. If you have not played Face of Mankind yet, I highly suggest you do. That game features penalty points that add up and allow the police-faction to arrest you and work it off on a jail planet. Thing is that the cops are untouchable, and even if they get PPs they are not going to go to jail unless they actually want to. They don't even get any PPs for killing randoms, which is dumb, because the whole policing faction has turned into a PK one in it's own right. You need to think about that kind of stuff prior.

Writer / Musician / Game Designer

Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  Papajahat

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/10/09
Posts: 37

 
OP  5/12/10 12:17:38 AM#5

basically there is no lawful pk except kill red target.

if you attemp to kill or assist the offender, you will get warning marked. those who wants to defend will be marked too. the killer  will turn red and reward attach to your head. (this will encourage griefing...)

there are few factions but you are allowed to switch or going neutral. doing so will turn you red for few days to your previous faction.

the faction can issue open war against other faction. this is the time you can call as lawful pk. there objective that grant bonus can be captured during open war and remains as their possesion when the war over. raiding this objective outside war will turn you red for few hours unless the objective is neutral.

a npc faction have a relic that can be raided and kept in faction base for bonus. other faction raid the relic outside  war will turn them red for few hours.

that is how you get marked and consider this as the rule of engagement.

i can't decide what is the penalty if you get killed while in red.  at what point do i impose the penalty?

  GTwander

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/09
Posts: 6125

LARPer Hunter

5/12/10 12:26:39 AM#6
Originally posted by Papajahat

 

i can't decide what is the penalty if you get killed while in red.  at what point do i impose the penalty?

 

Again, you really should play Face of Mankind for this very system in action, even if just for a taste. At least do the research.

 

In that game you get PP for simply shooting anyone, but loads if you do the killing blow, and even more if you kill a cop. You even get PP for having drugs on you when searched by a cop. When you build up tons of PP it means a really, really long wait on the prison planet, even with some mission goals to remove PP. IF you escape justice (and man am I using that loosely for this game) long enough the PP builds up to where your rezzing takes longer, then you can no longer buy extra lives, and finally you get permakilled after the first death. There are a couple people listed for permadeath last I checked, either they no longer play, or politics is that f'd up in the game to where they just cannot be touched.

Writer / Musician / Game Designer

Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  lynks_8

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/09/12
Posts: 2

3/11/12 3:09:47 PM#7

I am an independent (read: just me) developer and have recently released my own little project (shameless plug: Adranos).

The way it works in Adranos is with a system of 'kill rights'. These are a sort of ticket that you are given upon being the victim of a gank. So some high level player comes and kills you, you drop your inventory (players in Adranos always drop their inventory upon death) and gain a kill right on your attacker.

You can now take revenge in one of two ways;

Firstly, you can decide that you are skilled enough to defeat your original attacker, hunt them down, and kill them. Doing so (killing another player when you hold a kill right over them) means that they suffer a much more severe death penalty; in addition to dropping their inventory, they drop one randomly chosen, equipped item. They also lose a chunk of XP equivalent to about 3/4 of a level and a few points are knocked off each of their skills (excluding trade skills).

Secondly (and I think most interestingly) you can trade your kill right to another player entirely. Usually a payment of gold changes hands also; either players advertise their services as assassins, you pay them and give them a kill right and they go off and take revenge. Or they buy the kill right from you in the hope of making more money in return from the dropped items.

The idea here is that each time you gank someone, you are putting a kill right out into the world with your name on it, that kill right can be traded around and end up in the hands of a much more powerful player, who will then really ruin your day. This makes people think twice before ganking meaninglessly. 

Guild wars in Adranos also use this system, when two guilds are at war it is as if every player in guild A holds an infinite number of kill rights on every player in guild B and vice-versa. This means that being in a state of war is painful for both sides, forcing everyone to travel in groups to avoid getting picked off by the rival guild.

A guild war ends when both sides agree on a treaty (the guild leaders have to meet face to face to open the treaty dialogue, a tense moment), usually involving the exchange of something (a large pile of gold, ownership of a guild hall, or any other kind of 'non-game-mechanism' verbal agreement).

The game is currently in open beta, but the guild war mechanisms are still in alpha, expected to be live within a month or so. 

Hope all that made sense :P 

http://adranos.com

  Jerieth

Novice Member

Joined: 7/27/08
Posts: 10

2/12/14 3:38:04 PM#8
Originally posted by GTwander

The best way, IMO, is to divide the map into places where you can PvP, and where you can't. This is best applied to an open-world kind of game, where the PvP areas are the best routes around the world, and avoiding them means taking the long-road. EVE does this, but I am leaning more towards how Anarchy Online does it. The world is still zoned by all means, but entering one raises a prompt that says "suppression field at 75% (etc)", and the extent of that determines whether PvE mobs can attack you, as well as other players.

There doesn't need to be a penalty if there are just dedicated (and lawless) places to PvP in. It's the player's fault for entering them.

I agree. I don't think you should penalize PVP. Dividing the map and having safe zones is the best. If people really want to PVP they can go to certain areas and do it. If you want PVP to be available everywhere, just have guards in some areas, or make it that someone who is attacking appears on other players radars or something. 

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  Talinguard

Novice Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 672

Player accomplishment is relative to the chance of meaningful consequences in the event you fail.

5/01/14 11:09:19 AM#9
Originally posted by Papajahat

any idea of good pk penalty system in open world pvp mmo? not to deter pvp but griefing and camping

1 accumulate pk point and chance to drop item when killed

2 send pk'er to area where they have to fight their way out. journey would take some time and hard battle.

3 send them to jail and have to do some labour work. get some gold + xp while doing that

4 only get pk point if kill lowbies and same person 3 times

 

it also bother me that a pk'er always penalized to defend themself and the attacker can pk him without any penalty. need some risk if you want to be a hero. sometimes you get marked accidently.

thx in advance.

 

This is the way I would do it.  

Players who play in a way that is good for the game, which would be determined by the devs, are rewarded by their "god" with the chance (call them points or whatever) to intervene in fights against much higher level players, giving the lower level player greatly increased power against his attacker/s, enough to make it a good fight, or even slightly in the defenders favor.  It wouldn't have to be every time.  It could just be a % chance.  The better a player plays the game the greater his chance for intervention.  Maybe god's are limited to a certain number of interventions....The possibilities around this idea are virtually limitless.

The player wouldn't be able to use this offensively.  Only if he is attacked and didn't provoke it.

So it promotes good play in your game and every low player benefits because the high level gankers won't know which players have favor with their gods and which do not.  So when they attack lower level players they are taking a risk.  Thos players that want to gank other players are limited or prevented in any way.  They still have a chance, and most of the time they will still succeed.  But it adds the element of risk.

You could even add that if the lower level player wins he gets to take something, money, item ect, from the attacker....

In this way, lower level players might welcome ganks as they have the chance not only to beat their attacker, but collect something of real value.

Remember, the chance would be low, say 15-25%.  The idea is that we want to give players that have fun spoiling the fun of others some risk, not only that they will be killed, but they could lose something of real value.  

Since low level players offer nothing of value to the higher level player, why would the higher level player take the risk?

Presentation for new MMORPG economics concept http://www.slideshare.net/talin/mmo-economics-concept-v-10