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General Discussion  » (@ Those against payment model change): What is your argument for ESO NOT changing payment models and going B2P or F2P?

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82 posts found
  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 6031

 
OP  4/25/14 1:03:44 AM#1

This is a decent civil forum which we can have a good civil debate and discussion.

 

So I want to hear the argument of the "Anti-ESO Payment Model changers"

on

Why Elder Scrolls Online "SHOULD NOT" change its payment model from its current sub payment model?

 

I want to hear both sides of the argument, but I will start with the voices of those who believe ESO should NOT change its current payment model.

Read fine print below....

 

Edit: I believe both sides in this should have a chance to defend their argument, which is why I am asking the "Anti-ESO Payment model changers" to voice their opinion on this.

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7244

4/25/14 1:25:22 AM#2
If it went b2p or f2p there will be a cash to gold conversion system, and rl money will be able to influence in game outcomes. I don't want that. That's my argument against.

When I eat chocolate chip pie it just doesn't feel like chocolate chip cookies. The texture, the consistency, it's just not the same and this is disappointing.

  onlinenow25

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/26/07
Posts: 279

4/25/14 1:26:20 AM#3
Originally posted by nttajira

mod can lock this topic ? we got enough of them, eso curently P2P for the standar they want to keep ,

and yeah that not there yet but that the first months and if people whould stop to be immature and think everything should be right now perfect , the game will get there, the base game realy amazing and fun.

that not B2P or F2P because it not this type of game.

they are no reason talk about it, use you logic.

 

you need to be the one you talk about how this game should be either B2P or p2p. because that not either of those and that just rude to say people should explain to you why the game p2p.

if you want know, can tell you a litle bit some reason.

- services ( yeah no matter how you bitch or think they are the worst ever, they are way better that b2p or p2p game dev )

- no cash shop ( no the horse not one )

- REAL update and a team working daily on the game ( no f2p and b2p game dont have it )

we pay for these service the total of .50 cents a day something ANYONE can afforts, if you cant, you should not have enough time play mmorpg.

my food last night cost me 4 months subs omg.... i get a damn cofee each day before work and that 4x more that the price daily... when people with stop bitch about how game like mmorpg should be FREE ??

they are not these type of game, they require BIG WORK, TEAM, DEV , working DAILY. accept it or go play your shooter or other single player game who require no update, daily, patch, big team working on it....

SERIOUSLY ??!" IM TIRED OF THIS SHIT.

 

Not to be mean but your post didn't really make any sense.  I don't know if you were drunk when you posted this but...  I really have no idea what your saying.

 

This is a forum.  In forums discussions happen.  If you don't like the discussion you can not post in that thread.

 

 

On-topic

Personally I don't think F2P would work well with this game simply based on the IP, but I do think a B2P would work with paid expansions.  

I would say they could add a cash shop for cosmetic, but I feel like any cash shop in an Elder Scrolls Title just MURDERS the IP and makes it not feel like a game that shouldn't have used the IP.

But currently with all the bugs/dupes/bots/hacks this is the least of their worries currently.  

  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 6031

 
OP  4/25/14 1:27:35 AM#4
Originally posted by nttajira

mod can lock this topic ? we got enough of them, eso curently P2P for the standar they want to keep ,

and yeah that not there yet but that the first months and if people whould stop to be immature and think everything should be right now perfect , the game will get there, the base game realy amazing and fun.

that not B2P or F2P because it not this type of game.

they are no reason talk about it, use you logic.

 

you need to be the one you talk about how this game should be either B2P or p2p. because that not either of those and that just rude to say people should explain to you why the game p2p.

if you want know, can tell you a litle bit some reason.

- services ( yeah no matter how you bitch or think they are the worst ever, they are way better that b2p or p2p game dev )

- no cash shop ( no the horse not one )

- REAL update and a team working daily on the game ( no f2p and b2p game dont have it )

we pay for these service the total of .50 cents a day something ANYONE can afforts, if you cant, you should not have enough time play mmorpg.

my food last night cost me 4 months subs omg.... i get a damn cofee each day before work and that 4x more that the price daily... when people with stop bitch about how game like mmorpg should be FREE ??

they are not these type of game, they require BIG WORK, TEAM, DEV , working DAILY. accept it or go play your shooter or other single player game who require no update, daily, patch, big team working on it....

SERIOUSLY ??!" IM TIRED OF THIS SHIT.

 

this is a discussion forum.

 

Why is it wrong to have a discussion.

 

I asked for a argument from the other side for once for those against ESO going B2P/F2P.

How is that Rude?

 

I thought thats the whole point of the First Amendment. TO give people the freedom to speak out against other thoughts.

Well I see a lot of arguments for why its payment model should change,

 

i would like to read the arguments for the other side of this debate for sake of a civil discussion.

  Knotwood

Novice Member

Joined: 2/08/14
Posts: 1112

4/25/14 1:34:34 AM#5

I'm glad you asked this.  I will give you the most scientific answer to date.   Content...

 

Content is the reason a game should have a sub based model.  It has been proven in the past that development teams have greater size of update content when they all have to work on content for a game instead of for a cash shop to earn its money.   Final Fantasy's director Yoshi talked about this and so has SOE's ceo Smedley.

 

http://smedsblog.com/2014/02/11/the-sandbox-mmo/  -  Here smedley talks about the content mmorpg and whats required of it.

 

http://venturebeat.com/2013/06/17/final-fantasy-online-director-defends-monthly-subscriptions-in-the-golden-age-of-free-to-play-exclusive/   - Yoshi-P on what the free to play model would mean versus sub based games.

 

I think the evidence speaks for itself why a sub gives a game a higher quality level of content.  People leave a game after content runs dry and subs ensure that the content does not dry up so fast tthat people leave the game.

  onlinenow25

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/26/07
Posts: 279

4/25/14 1:34:42 AM#6
Originally posted by bcbully
If it went b2p or f2p there will be a cash to gold conversion system, and rl money will be able to influence in game outcomes. I don't want that. That's my argument against.

I completely agree.

 

I think any sort of Cash Shop or RL Money to Gold conversion would destroy this game simply because of the IP used.  To me it would completely take the player out of the ESO world and make it seem like any other fantasy IP.

  onlinenow25

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/26/07
Posts: 279

4/25/14 1:35:54 AM#7
Originally posted by Knotwood

I'm glad you asked this.  I will give you the most scientific answer to date.   Content...

 

Content is the reason a game should have a sub based model.  It has been proven in the past that development teams have greater size of update content when they all have to work on content for a game instead of for a cash shop to earn its money.   Final Fantasy's director Yoshi talked about this and so has SOE's ceo Smedley.

 

 

 

 

I think the evidence speaks for itself why a sub gives a game a higher quality level of content.  People leave a game after content runs dry and subs ensure that the content does not dry up so fast tthat people leave the game.

I have a game that points to the opposite.  Regardless if you like it or not Marvel Heroes adds more to the game in their weekly patches than some companies add in years.

  TrivanDK

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/13
Posts: 8

4/25/14 1:41:40 AM#8

Being an old timer - I have grown up with P2P, so that might influence my answer :)

I would assume that a P2P model (in a game like ESO) would bring in more money to Zenimax than a F2P model would - it would of course heavely be influenced by the quality of the F2P shop - if it was made like Neverwinters, well then it is road to faliuer.

The subscription model will bring in a steady flow of money, to most extend even a very accurate forecast on the next few months cash flow - this will give a developer the security to focus 100% on new interesting content - and not worry about what new stuff to sell at the shop - what new pets do we have to create, new emotes or whatever - focus will be on improving the game adding new content

I would also assume that sticking to the P2P model, will exclude some players, especially young players, since they might not have the money to pay for it - again being an old man, I find that the average 12 years old kid normally aren’t doing anything good for the game - so less immature players is an upside for me (the flip side of this is, if we end up with too few players, the game will die - so it’s a balance)

 

I would like to go on - but work is calling - so have to get back with more :)

 

Best

Trivan

(no English is not my native language)

  Knotwood

Novice Member

Joined: 2/08/14
Posts: 1112

4/25/14 1:48:23 AM#9
Originally posted by onlinenow25
Originally posted by Knotwood

I'm glad you asked this.  I will give you the most scientific answer to date.   Content...

 

Content is the reason a game should have a sub based model.  It has been proven in the past that development teams have greater size of update content when they all have to work on content for a game instead of for a cash shop to earn its money.   Final Fantasy's director Yoshi talked about this and so has SOE's ceo Smedley.

 

http://smedsblog.com/2014/02/11/the-sandbox-mmo/  -  Here smedley talks about the content mmorpg and whats required of it.

http://venturebeat.com/2013/06/17/final-fantasy-online-director-defends-monthly-subscriptions-in-the-golden-age-of-free-to-play-exclusive/   - Yoshi-P on what the free to play model would mean versus sub based games.

 

I think the evidence speaks for itself why a sub gives a game a higher quality level of content.  People leave a game after content runs dry and subs ensure that the content does not dry up so fast tthat people leave the game.

I have a game that points to the opposite.  Regardless if you like it or not Marvel Heroes adds more to the game in their weekly patches than some companies add in years.

I see nothing wrong with F2P, but some games are just not made for F2P.   ESO is one of those games that F2P would hurt it.    Not to say it shouldn't go  Hybrid.   Hybrid is a great way to go like LOTRO did, because LOTRO only sliced up its content and gave it out as Buy to Play,  was content that was for sub players as well.    Long as a game company develops for the sub player base and then sells that content to Buy to Play,  it would work.

  winter

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/08/03
Posts: 2237

4/25/14 2:06:33 AM#10

 Almost all F2P games that have not been supported by a subscription for several years (ie LOTRO / EQ2 having vast content only because of the several years of subscriptions they had) are dismal pieces of crap. They have insane restriction like you must pay to equip decent gear drops you find or walled off content. They make you jump through hoops like having to log on every day to maintain some progress (heaven forbid you don't log in every 24hrs) or have several different currencies (gold, gems, merchant bars etc etc). In the end the few players that do pay anything are paying so a bunch of cheap ass freeloaders that add nothing to the game van play for free. Development  changes from going all to new content to going to mostly developing new cash shop items that cheapen the game. If you want TESO F2P please go play the F2P game of your choice. There are plenty out currently.( and you won't see me going to their forums asking the game become P2P. Basically with F2P you get what you pay for, Leave TESO to those of us that would rather pay one basic price monthly and have the new content actually be content instead of $25 dollar shiny cash shop horses

  Think B2P is better? Then go play GW2. That game has only proven that with the lack of continued funds you again have cash shop content being king in developments mind, lack of any decent continued content. (living story was poor at best) and limied ability to test or create anything new other then skins (thus the removal of trinity, and horizontal leveling).

  Sorry if I seem overly negative but as pointed out there are games for the F2P, and B2P players, please don't try and drag every game down that that level. I really suspect if F2P and B2P games were that good then we wouldn't be having this many threads asking TESO become one as the OP's would be playing in said games instead of trying to turn TESO into one.

 

  winter

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/08/03
Posts: 2237

4/25/14 2:15:24 AM#11
Originally posted by onlinenow25
Originally posted by nttajira

mod can lock this topic ? we got enough of them, eso curently P2P for the standar they want to keep ,

and yeah that not there yet but that the first months and if people whould stop to be immature and think everything should be right now perfect , the game will get there, the base game realy amazing and fun.

that not B2P or F2P because it not this type of game.

they are no reason talk about it, use you logic.

 

you need to be the one you talk about how this game should be either B2P or p2p. because that not either of those and that just rude to say people should explain to you why the game p2p.

if you want know, can tell you a litle bit some reason.

- services ( yeah no matter how you bitch or think they are the worst ever, they are way better that b2p or p2p game dev )

- no cash shop ( no the horse not one )

- REAL update and a team working daily on the game ( no f2p and b2p game dont have it )

we pay for these service the total of .50 cents a day something ANYONE can afforts, if you cant, you should not have enough time play mmorpg.

my food last night cost me 4 months subs omg.... i get a damn cofee each day before work and that 4x more that the price daily... when people with stop bitch about how game like mmorpg should be FREE ??

they are not these type of game, they require BIG WORK, TEAM, DEV , working DAILY. accept it or go play your shooter or other single player game who require no update, daily, patch, big team working on it....

SERIOUSLY ??!" IM TIRED OF THIS SHIT.

 

Not to be mean but your post didn't really make any sense.  I don't know if you were drunk when you posted this but...  I really have no idea what your saying.

 

This is a forum.  In forums discussions happen.  If you don't like the discussion you can not post in that thread.

 

 

On-topic

Personally I don't think F2P would work well with this game simply based on the IP, but I do think a B2P would work with paid expansions.  

I would say they could add a cash shop for cosmetic, but I feel like any cash shop in an Elder Scrolls Title just MURDERS the IP and makes it not feel like a game that shouldn't have used the IP.

But currently with all the bugs/dupes/bots/hacks this is the least of their worries currently.  

 You mean make TESO have one real content update/expansion every 2-3 years and a cash shop like GW2? No thanks.

 Lets face it GW2 IS the best P2P currently out and even with its wild popularity its content is glacial / lightweight and it HAS to have a cash shop even to keep that poor amount of content coming in.

  Asariasha

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/05/11
Posts: 211

4/25/14 2:16:39 AM#12
Originally posted by onlinenow25
Originally posted by Knotwood

I'm glad you asked this.  I will give you the most scientific answer to date.   Content...

 

Content is the reason a game should have a sub based model.  It has been proven in the past that development teams have greater size of update content when they all have to work on content for a game instead of for a cash shop to earn its money.   Final Fantasy's director Yoshi talked about this and so has SOE's ceo Smedley.

 

 

 

 

I think the evidence speaks for itself why a sub gives a game a higher quality level of content.  People leave a game after content runs dry and subs ensure that the content does not dry up so fast tthat people leave the game.

I have a game that points to the opposite.  Regardless if you like it or not Marvel Heroes adds more to the game in their weekly patches than some companies add in years.

 

Not true. Please differentiate between content updates and bugfix / balancing updates. There is a huge difference.

 

/ontopic

 

PRO SUBSCRIPTION IN MMORPGS

 

Quality

 

A subscription model allows the developer to maintain more than just a skeleton crew meaning that both, the level of quality and quantity of updates exceeds the one of a free-2-play game

 

Availability of Content

 

Free-2-Play games must monetize. Players are artificially limited when it comes to experiencing the content. Also things like inventory space are extraordinary limited, directly or indirectly, in order to increase sales of inventory upgrades.

 

Sick Monetization

 

Simple updates are sold for big prices. Taking Marvel Heroes as example, because it was mentioned before:

 

- Certain heroes must be unlocked for cash

- If you want to have a new look for your toon, you must invest 10 - 50 US-Dollars. That is for a single costume. Of course you can choose the Mega Pack for 199 US-Dollars, but even this one does not include all costumes.

 

The whole game is optimized to create revenues and we are talking here about big revenues based upon a small percentage of paying players. While the free-2-play players may not experience the game in its full scale, the ones willing to pay quickly invest hundreds of dollars and that is not what I call user friendly.

 

 

  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 5381

4/25/14 2:23:04 AM#13
Originally posted by MMOExposed

 

Why Elder Scrolls Online "SHOULD NOT" change its payment model from its current sub payment model?

 

Here's the only reasons why I see them NOT changing the pay model.

1. Their billing system cannot process real time payments, this means subs are the only way

2. They are having growing subscriptions every month, again no need to change

3. They have no in-house business intelligence/analytics team to run a micro-transaction based game shop - you need to keep a real time pulse on player spending trends and player browsing trends in an online store - without this data you're driving blind, and will have major issues in monetizing players

Those would be my reasons to NOT change payment model.

  winter

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/08/03
Posts: 2237

4/25/14 2:24:35 AM#14
Originally posted by onlinenow25
Originally posted by Knotwood

I'm glad you asked this.  I will give you the most scientific answer to date.   Content...

 

Content is the reason a game should have a sub based model.  It has been proven in the past that development teams have greater size of update content when they all have to work on content for a game instead of for a cash shop to earn its money.   Final Fantasy's director Yoshi talked about this and so has SOE's ceo Smedley.

 

 

 

 

I think the evidence speaks for itself why a sub gives a game a higher quality level of content.  People leave a game after content runs dry and subs ensure that the content does not dry up so fast tthat people leave the game.

I have a game that points to the opposite.  Regardless if you like it or not Marvel Heroes adds more to the game in their weekly patches than some companies add in years.

 humm tried Marvel hero's and cant say I found much there. Really it seemed more a ARPG then a MMO to me, and not as good as any of the diablos IMO. Truely I haven't kept up on Marvel heros but last I heard the only thing I heard them really adding was some new heros and skins all of which were cash shop content.

  prowess

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/04/07
Posts: 170

4/25/14 2:29:37 AM#15

The core technology that this game is built on is extremely easy to exploit..  a cracked client can discover resources from extreme distances and teleport to them to gather.  It is also possible to spoof your stamina so that you never have to stop sprinting or tumbling.  It's also possible to discover enemy player locations, regardless of line of sight or stealth mechanics.

 

The client can be manipulated in so many ways that it is impossible for us to know all of them at this point in the game.

 

If the game was free to play, it would be flooded with 100x more bots and cheaters...

 

I am suspicious that the game was intentionally created with such vulnerabilities to invite cheaters that they can ban, knowing that they will increase their revenue by buying new accounts..  They will always buy new accounts because the game is immensely easy to exploit and therefore extremely profitable on the black market.

 

Legit players with wives and jobs will buy the game for their love of The Elder Scrolls, they will buy black market goods and gold because they don't have the time to devote to gathering the immense resources that are required to be successful which will keep the bots in business..  And zenimax will ban the bots who will buy even more accounts, keeping them in business.


I chose the Xfinity speed test because it does not reveal my ISP.

  askdaboss

Novice Member

Joined: 9/13/11
Posts: 429

4/25/14 3:32:58 AM#16

Same old topic. I still haven't seen any proponent of P2P provide any "valid" argument. Most of the arguments are:

- Hypothetical problems generated by the B2P/F2P models (found in some poor implementations of these models, admittedly)

- Hypothetical qualities of P2P games that we haven't seen in years in any P2P game

 

Indeed while I can point you to great and successful implementations of B2P and F2P models as evidence of the success of these models...

What you will see is that nobody will be able to point to great and successful implementation of pure P2P model (that more oever offer significant difference with a B2P or F2P model).

 

People's ideal vision of a P2P game (the P2P graal) simply isn't anywhere to be found and so my conclusion is that the model must/should be dead.

  askdaboss

Novice Member

Joined: 9/13/11
Posts: 429

4/25/14 3:35:02 AM#17
Originally posted by winter

 You mean make TESO have one real content update/expansion every 2-3 years and a cash shop like GW2? No thanks.

 Lets face it GW2 IS the best P2P currently out and even with its wild popularity its content is glacial / lightweight and it HAS to have a cash shop even to keep that poor amount of content coming in.

GW2 is B2P.

Please name a P2P game that adds more content than GW2 then.

  prowesss

Novice Member

Joined: 4/12/14
Posts: 72

4/25/14 3:42:42 AM#18
How is my argument for p2p not valid?


I chose the Xfinity speed test because it does not reveal my ISP.

  jesteralways

Elite Member

Joined: 3/17/13
Posts: 597

4/25/14 3:46:33 AM#19
It is not only ESO but also every other subscription only mmorpg should change model to b2p with optional subscription. buying a game then being unable to play until i pay more is not really a good deal for me and i can say it is not a good deal for many players.  

i want an open world, no phasing, no instancing.i want meaningful owpvp.i want player driven economy.i want meaningful crafting.i want awesome exploration, a sense of thrill.i want ow housing with a meaningful effect on my entire gameplay experience, not just some instanced crap.i want all of these free of cost, i don't wanna pay you a cent, game devs can eat grass and continue developing game for me.
Seems like that is the current consensus of western mmo players.

  Anthur

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/05/10
Posts: 621

4/25/14 4:13:02 AM#20

Don't know but maybe I am a rich snob. 15$ a months doesn't really mean much to me. Considering how much time I spend in an MMO it is a ridiculous low amount of money anyway. If I wouldn't play an MMO during that time I would spend much more money on other things.

So, if you can't afford 15$/month for a hobby as time consuming as an MMO all I can say is: Better spend that time improving your financial situation.

This "I want it all and I want it for free" attitude is nonsense. We live in aworld dominated by capitalism. Money makes the world go around.

I am not even going into details why F2P sucks for any individual dedicated MMO player who can afford this low amount of money. They have been named hundreds of times.

If an MMO could offer both, F2P and P2P, sure why not. But please on seperate servers and the content created must not be adjusted to support the F2P model. Of course this is not possible and will not happen.

Flame me as long as you want, but that's my oppinion.  ;)

 

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