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Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft

Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft 

General Discussion  » Huge pay to win

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66 posts found
  Mors.Magne

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/02/07
Posts: 1432

4/14/14 6:32:02 AM#41
Originally posted by maji

Yep, it's pay to win. The only "not pay to win" part is the arena. Everything else: the more boosters you buy the more legendaries you have the more games you will win, since legendaries are in 90% of all cases soooo much better than other cards.

In other CCGs like MTGO they are some cards as well that are definately better than others. But there you can trade for them. You can't do that in Hearthstone. There you buy boosters. Well, you can also destroy hundreds of your cards to get another one. Which, compared to 1vs1 trades, ensures that your collection is getting smaller and smaller, unless you buy boosters.

 

So, yep, the lack of a trading system and the pay to win issue make sure that Hearthstone is nothing else but a cheap money grab from Blizzard.

 

You are assuming that each Hearthstone card has equal value. Some cards can be destroyed to make other cards without thought - it's a no-brainer. For example, all gold cards can be destroyed and even some useless legendaries.

 

Hearthstone is pay-to-win, up to a point (if you want to rank up to get Legendary status), but you still might not because you need to have experience / skill as well.

 

I've bought enough cards that will allow me to reach the Legendary rank, but the maximum rank I make is 16 because I don't have the experience.  :ol

  h0urg1ass

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/29/05
Posts: 305

4/14/14 9:25:37 AM#42

All CCG's are pay to win.  This shouldn't even be part of the discussion.

It would be like having a discussion about the space shuttle and someone is surprised that it goes into space... I mean, that's the point.

This is coming from someone who has played MtG, Netrunner, Mechwarrior, LotFR, Warlord, V:TES and dozens of other card games over the past twenty years.  P2W is just part and parcel of the CCG industry and honestly, I'm shocked and astounded that it took the big gaming companies this long to come up with a digital CCG, MTG Online not withstanding.

The real shame in Hearthstone is that it's one of the most shallow and thoughtless card games I've ever played.  It has all the mental depth of a petri dish and yet was created by a company that has earnings in the billions every year.  Either they believe their customer base is made primarily of window licking ear biters that can't comprehend complexity, or they just didn't try very hard to come up with good game mechanics.

I mean for heavens sake, with their earnings they could have hired the master Richard Garfield himself to help design the game.  Instead I feel like any kindergarten class could have come up with the game mechanics in a day.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10924

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

4/14/14 9:57:10 AM#43
Originally posted by h0urg1ass

All CCG's are pay to win.  This shouldn't even be part of the discussion.

It would be like having a discussion about the space shuttle and someone is surprised that it goes into space... I mean, that's the point.

This is coming from someone who has played MtG, Netrunner, Mechwarrior, LotFR, Warlord, V:TES and dozens of other card games over the past twenty years.  P2W is just part and parcel of the CCG industry and honestly, I'm shocked and astounded that it took the big gaming companies this long to come up with a digital CCG, MTG Online not withstanding.

The real shame in Hearthstone is that it's one of the most shallow and thoughtless card games I've ever played.  It has all the mental depth of a petri dish and yet was created by a company that has earnings in the billions every year.  Either they believe their customer base is made primarily of window licking ear biters that can't comprehend complexity, or they just didn't try very hard to come up with good game mechanics.

I mean for heavens sake, with their earnings they could have hired the master Richard Garfield himself to help design the game.  Instead I feel like any kindergarten class could have come up with the game mechanics in a day.

 

They want more than just a few people playing the game.  You said it yourself, they make billions of dollars every year.  You don't make that by building games with mechanics that not too many people want to bother learning.

 

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  CrazKanuk

Elite Member

Joined: 10/06/09
Posts: 1271

4/14/14 10:03:05 AM#44
Originally posted by genoshan

I disagree about it being p2w. I thought this was the case originally also, but I did my quests, the hidden quests ( such as 100 wins ) and have managed to get legendaries a few times.

 

I actually save up 150 gold, run an arena and hope for profit. It works, often i get a pack, 60-100 gold and some enchanting material from one arena run... Unless I suck, i at least always get a pack of cards to open.

You are guaranteed at least a pack if you enter the arena? DOH! I've just been buying packs alone! Didn't know about the added upside of the arena. 

Crazkanuk

----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------

  Thane

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/14/03
Posts: 1924

I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.

4/14/14 10:09:24 AM#45
Originally posted by Wizardry

No you don't have to buy but if you do like some that have already bought over 100 packs,there is a huge disparity in cards.

Even their auto match maker is really bad,example i was constantly matched versus players with more unlocked decks than me and seemed every single card they played was o/p.

Soon i seen the decks with very powerful multi-mechanic cards,i just esc and concede,not much fun there.I have been a long time member of MTGO and MTG regular cards and played SOE's version,i won't be supporting these games anymore with money.

it's a trading card game where you cannot trade cards.

of cors ot's pay 2 win... you can buy ALL cards with decks and then rock the shit out of them ^^

"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  jesteralways

Elite Member

Joined: 3/17/13
Posts: 644

4/14/14 10:15:32 AM#46
I remember when i was 9; I used to play G.I.Joe tcg with my cousin. he had more cards than me; he bought them all from the store; a lot of them. He won every single match against me. The one time he lost was the time he set a rule that he would only use cards that i am using, he said he was bored just winning against me; after he lost 1st time he never felt bored winning against me later, well we played about 100 matches and then he left for UK. that is my story, i always thought tcg was about buying more cards from store and winning. so am i wrong? or is it perfectly alright to do that kind of business in real life situation but it is horrendous to do in online tcg?

i want an open world, no phasing, no instancing.i want meaningful owpvp.i want player driven economy.i want meaningful crafting.i want awesome exploration, a sense of thrill.i want ow housing with a meaningful effect on my entire gameplay experience, not just some instanced crap.i want all of these free of cost, i don't wanna pay you a cent, game devs can eat grass and continue developing game for me.
Seems like that is the current consensus of western mmo players.

  Mors.Magne

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/02/07
Posts: 1432

4/14/14 10:31:36 AM#47
Originally posted by h0urg1ass

All CCG's are pay to win.  This shouldn't even be part of the discussion.

It would be like having a discussion about the space shuttle and someone is surprised that it goes into space... I mean, that's the point.

This is coming from someone who has played MtG, Netrunner, Mechwarrior, LotFR, Warlord, V:TES and dozens of other card games over the past twenty years.  P2W is just part and parcel of the CCG industry and honestly, I'm shocked and astounded that it took the big gaming companies this long to come up with a digital CCG, MTG Online not withstanding.

The real shame in Hearthstone is that it's one of the most shallow and thoughtless card games I've ever played.  It has all the mental depth of a petri dish and yet was created by a company that has earnings in the billions every year.  Either they believe their customer base is made primarily of window licking ear biters that can't comprehend complexity, or they just didn't try very hard to come up with good game mechanics.

I mean for heavens sake, with their earnings they could have hired the master Richard Garfield himself to help design the game.  Instead I feel like any kindergarten class could have come up with the game mechanics in a day.

 

I disagree with you that Hearthstone is less complex than MTGO (which must surely be the gold standard).

 

Hearthstone might appear to be less complex simply because there are not as many cards yet. That is bound to change.

 

If you really think that Hearthstone does not have the potential to be equally as complex as MTGO, I would genuinely love to know why.

  Mors.Magne

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/02/07
Posts: 1432

4/14/14 10:40:08 AM#48
Originally posted by Thane
Originally posted by Wizardry

No you don't have to buy but if you do like some that have already bought over 100 packs,there is a huge disparity in cards.

Even their auto match maker is really bad,example i was constantly matched versus players with more unlocked decks than me and seemed every single card they played was o/p.

Soon i seen the decks with very powerful multi-mechanic cards,i just esc and concede,not much fun there.I have been a long time member of MTGO and MTG regular cards and played SOE's version,i won't be supporting these games anymore with money.

it's a trading card game where you cannot trade cards.

of cors ot's pay 2 win... you can buy ALL cards with decks and then rock the shit out of them ^^

 

I think it's better that Hearthstone is not a trading card game. If it was, like MTGO, cards such as the Black Lotus would cost thousands of dollars! 

 

As it is, the most expensive Hearthstone cards would set you back 20 dollars for the crafting materials. It would be far cheaper still (cost nothing?)  to destroy the cards you will obviously never use and craft the exact legendary you want.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13597

4/14/14 4:18:01 PM#49
If you could trade cards, then what happens when your account gets hacked and all your good cards get traded away for random junk?  Blizzard surely didn't want to deal with that, and I'll bet that played a major role in their decision not to allow trading with other players.
  Scorchien

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/12/06
Posts: 1103

4/14/14 4:19:51 PM#50
There is no such thing as P2W in a CCG ......
  madazz

Novice Member

Joined: 10/07/03
Posts: 1312

4/14/14 4:22:52 PM#51

Sounds like its not OP's type of game. 

 

Hearthstone was designed to attract the card game crowd. Specifically, people into Magic the Gathering. A fact that you may not like about these games is that more variety comes with more money spent. While heathstone is pay to win (you do better if you put money into it regardless of what ANYONE here states), it is a game based off of something that has worked for decades in this specific genre. 

 

I wish I could suggest a similar game that doesn't require money to be truly competitive, but frankly, I don't know any! 

  madazz

Novice Member

Joined: 10/07/03
Posts: 1312

4/14/14 4:23:45 PM#52
Originally posted by Scorchien
There is no such thing as P2W in a CCG ......

When talking about card games based off of magic the gathering, your statement is categorically and undeniably wrong.

  sketocafe

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/19/11
Posts: 611

4/14/14 4:27:14 PM#53
Fire is hot, water is wet and Collectible Card Games are pay to win. I don't even like the game that much, but come on, man.
  versulas

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/14/09
Posts: 284

4/14/14 4:42:48 PM#54

Well, you can spend an eternity disenchanting enough cards to make just one 1600 dust card (forget trying to fill your deck that way).

 

...Or, you can just roll a priest and have 9 chances + faceless manipulator to steal or copy their cards. 

 

Even then, if your opponents really are running with all mid-late game hard-hitting legendaries, simply drop a murloc deck in their lap and kill them by round 4-5. 

 

In other words, you're never going to have the straight-up firepower of someone who has spent the $$, but there's no reason you can't take steps to counter them.

 

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13597

4/14/14 4:50:19 PM#55
Originally posted by maji

Yep, it's pay to win. The only "not pay to win" part is the arena. Everything else: the more boosters you buy the more legendaries you have the more games you will win, since legendaries are in 90% of all cases soooo much better than other cards.

Suppose that you had all of the cards in the game.  That gives you the capability to put 28 legendaries in a single deck.  How many legendaries would you put in your deck?  If your answer is 28, you're really bad at this game.

That 28 legendary deck would have at least 16 minions (17 if you're not a rogue) with a mana cost of 6 or higher, and at least 3 more with a mana cost of 5.  That means you're stuck with a lot of cards that you can't use until far into the game, and precious few cards that you can use.  By the time you get the chance to start dropping your big legendaries, you're probably going to be so far behind as to be unrecoverable, if the game isn't over already.

Nor would those low-mana legendaries be able to carry you through the early game.  Tinkmaster Overspark is a late-game card meant to neuter a big minion, and is mediocre if played early.  Lorewalker Cho is terrible, period.  Nat Pagle is only good if you can keep your opponent off of him for a while, which you can't without a good number of other early-game cards.  Millhouse Manastorm has so much potential to backfire that I've never seen another player use him at any phase of the game.  Old Murk-Eye without other murlocs basically amounts to a common Gnomish Inventor without the card draw.  King Mukla is okay, but two bananas give your opponent an awful lot of ways to make it backfire.  Leeroy Jenkins has his uses, but playing him while behind will probably just get you further behind.  Edwin VanCleef is terrible if he's your first card played that turn, and you're severely lacking on early-game cards.  Bloodmage Thalnos is a nice utility card, but a 1/1 minion is not going to carry you through the first four rounds.

And that's it for you until round 5, at which point you might have one of the three five-mana legendaries available.  Captain Greenskin without a weapon that you don't have (unless you're a rogue) is basically a common Booty Bay Bodyguard without the taunt.  So is Harrison Jones unless your opponent has a weapon.  Elite Tauren Chieftain is more for flavor than a serious minion.  And that's it for you until round 6.

Come round 6, you can start dropping some seriously powerful legendaries from your legendary deck.  But only one per turn, due to mana constraints.  That means that you can't burn through the cards you accumulated by being unable to play them earlier, either.  And one powerful minion isn't going to save you when you're on the brink of defeat.

-----

My point here is that most legendaries are late-game cards.  Some of them are really good late-game cards.  And if you're not going for an aggro deck, you'd probably like several legendaries in your deck.  But only several, not most or all of the legendaries, or at least not in a given deck.  And you can craft the particular legendaries that you want without having to rely on the luck of random packs.  More legendaries does not automatically make a better deck.  If applied stupidly, more legendaries will probably make a worse deck.  Except for Bloodmage Thalnos, who fits in nearly any deck.

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6848

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

 
OP  4/14/14 4:56:06 PM#56

Yes i will agree there is the odd exception,example the Murloc deck but still it could take a VERY long time playing totally free to get the Legendary and Epic Murlocs that complete the deck.I know the so called PROS like to scoff at pay to win but  i say ..."If it does not matter then why are all your decks full of legendaries"?

There is one guy who is considered a top world class player Reynad,his Warrior deck that he plays pretty much 24/7 has tons of legendaries in it.

There is one exception to the rule,a guy like Trump is scary good,he can win with an all free deck where others can't.I don't know how he does it,i watched him play countless times and he doesn't do anything out of the ordinary,i consider him just VERY lucky.Probablility and odds are not perfect,thy are NEVER going to work out 50/50 in the long run,there will always be some luckier than others and that is FACT.

None the less even the great Trump uses tons of legendaries in his decks,some of which i wouldn't use just because they seem not so good.

This is not even about just simple time,it would take YEARS to get all the legendaries to fulfill MANY of the world best decks.You only can have one of a legend card which makes it tougher to be meaningful but still over the long haul those pay to win cards do add up and can be the difference between a 50% win rate and a 75% win rate.

I want to make one thing clear however,this game is FUN and very challenging,it is a thinking mans game and takes a lot of practice to be very good.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  maji

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/15/04
Posts: 1938

4/14/14 5:05:24 PM#57

Even if Hearthstone would not be pay 2 win, I wouldn't consider it to be a good game, due to the lack of variety, trading and social aspects.

 

Regarding the pay 2 win issue:

Of course, many CCGs follow the road of "more rare cards are better". The huge difference though is the lack of trading on Hearthstone. It results in a) the cards having absolutely zero value and b) you being unable to 1vs1 trade in the cards you want. The only way to get the cards you want in a reasonable amount of time is to spend huge amounts of money on the shop and disenchant masses of cards.

Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)

Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)

  Pocahinha

Novice Member

Joined: 7/14/09
Posts: 570

4/14/14 5:17:46 PM#58
Originally posted by Wizardry

No you don't have to buy but if you do like some that have already bought over 100 packs,there is a huge disparity in cards.

Even their auto match maker is really bad,example i was constantly matched versus players with more unlocked decks than me and seemed every single card they played was o/p.

Soon i seen the decks with very powerful multi-mechanic cards,i just esc and concede,not much fun there.I have been a long time member of MTGO and MTG regular cards and played SOE's version,i won't be supporting these games anymore with money.

That is irrelevant if you dont play the game..

If a crappy game or p2w game comes out i just dont play it...period...no problem, if everyone did the same as me...they would not make crappy games..or p2w games...

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13597

4/14/14 5:21:22 PM#59
Originally posted by Wizardry

Yes i will agree there is the odd exception,example the Murloc deck but still it could take a VERY long time playing totally free to get the Legendary and Epic Murlocs that complete the deck.I know the so called PROS like to scoff at pay to win but  i say ..."If it does not matter then why are all your decks full of legendaries"?

How many is "tons" of legendaries?  Five?  Seven?  Ten?  Sure.  But not anywhere near 37, which is how many legendaries there are in the game.

Card set A:  everything available but the legendaries

Card set B:  everything available, including legendaries

Card set C:  all common cards available, both free and expert, but nothing higher than common

Card set C is going to be at a huge disadvantage to A or B.  A is going to be at a disadvantage to B, but not anywhere near as crippling as C is when facing A.

People are focusing far too much on legendary cards.  Rares and epics make a huge difference, too, and are a lot easier to come by.  And even a good player with card set B is going to have quite a few commons in his deck alongside the rarer cards.  Indeed, if I had everything available, I'd probably still sometimes run decks with more common cards than legendary.

  Mors.Magne

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/02/07
Posts: 1432

4/15/14 3:24:17 AM#60
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Wizardry

Yes i will agree there is the odd exception,example the Murloc deck but still it could take a VERY long time playing totally free to get the Legendary and Epic Murlocs that complete the deck.I know the so called PROS like to scoff at pay to win but  i say ..."If it does not matter then why are all your decks full of legendaries"?

How many is "tons" of legendaries?  Five?  Seven?  Ten?  Sure.  But not anywhere near 37, which is how many legendaries there are in the game.

Card set A:  everything available but the legendaries

Card set B:  everything available, including legendaries

Card set C:  all common cards available, both free and expert, but nothing higher than common

Card set C is going to be at a huge disadvantage to A or B.  A is going to be at a disadvantage to B, but not anywhere near as crippling as C is when facing A.

People are focusing far too much on legendary cards.  Rares and epics make a huge difference, too, and are a lot easier to come by.  And even a good player with card set B is going to have quite a few commons in his deck alongside the rarer cards.  Indeed, if I had everything available, I'd probably still sometimes run decks with more common cards than legendary.

 

This is an interesting subject.

 

My current tactic is to use any class. First I drop 'distractors', such as the ghoul or poisonous snake cards - players seem to have a visceral fear of cards such as this and it's not uncommon for players to use 2 cards to eliminate 1.

 

This plays for time and depletes their card options until I start dropping a crap load of legendaries, starting at gem stone 6.

 

This is a 'pay-to-win' tactic. However, I have a lot of respect for players who can use lesser cards in combination to take me down before I start dropping the big guns at gem stone 8.

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