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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Themepark pret-a-porter brainwash

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208 posts found
  Novusod

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/30/09
Posts: 864

4/13/14 10:10:31 PM#161
No Trade items is where I draw the line. I will never again play a MMO where items are not tradable between players.
  ikcin

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/15/13
Posts: 383

 
OP  4/14/14 2:39:22 AM#162
Originally posted by Meowhead
Originally posted by ikcin

So I make logical assumptions, but from my point of view.

The problem is that you're ignoring actual evidence, and also making up your own history (Like 'fashion was not developed until the 18th century'), all based off of nothing more than your gut feeling.

You can live in a world that is completely disconnected from everybody else, historical evidence, and using your own definitions and ignoring everybody else's experiences while saying yours hold absolute sway...

... but that's solipsism and means that basically this whole conversation consists of you in your own disconnected universe saying why it's right, and everybody else staring at you and wondering what's wrong with you. :(

And where are your actual evidences? Show me evidence that fashion /if you know what is this/ is invented before Maria Antoinette. You have no evidences too, just your logic.

But +7 for chess :)

  ikcin

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/15/13
Posts: 383

 
OP  4/14/14 2:40:55 AM#163
Originally posted by Novusod
No Trade items is where I draw the line. I will never again play a MMO where items are not tradable between players.

Agree, with no trade the economy doesnt work. And without working economy there is no way to have good MMORPG.

  tawess

Elite Member

Joined: 3/24/05
Posts: 1993

4/14/14 3:04:44 AM#164

17 pages in and i still have no clue what the original argument was for/about...

 

I am also curious where the themepark thing fits in to it all....

 

But that is just me.

Tomas Soapbox

This have been a good conversation

  crack_fox

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 398

4/14/14 6:38:22 AM#165
Originally posted by tawess

17 pages in and i still have no clue what the original argument was for/about... 

A 34 year old Bulgarian man is very angry because other people enjoy dressing up their avatars in online games. 

  ikcin

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/15/13
Posts: 383

 
OP  4/14/14 7:00:35 AM#166
Originally posted by crack_fox
Originally posted by tawess

17 pages in and i still have no clue what the original argument was for/about... 

A 34 year old Bulgarian man is very angry because other people enjoy dressing up their avatars in online games. 

Or maybe some people enjoy it too much :) I'm sad, cause publishers sell me dress up games instead of MMORPGs. I really don't care what you do in front of your monitor... and please don't tell me.

  coorsguys

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/20/13
Posts: 312

4/14/14 7:23:28 AM#167
So there really is no way to reply to this poster who has been brainwashed by the sandbox crew without him reporting you.  So I'd say he is wrong, the sandbox crowd is a very small % of the mmorpg that's why there are not too many of them left standing.  Majority enjoy the current way, maybe you should find a new hobby maybe join a nudest colony there you wouldn't have to worry about what people wear.   
  User Deleted
4/14/14 7:38:31 AM#168
He ignores anyone that asks him to prove his point still waiting for 5 theme parks where raid gear is the best looking with the best stats and no customization options for your look to personalize your avatar still no reply till he can do that his point is mute.
  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10635

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

4/14/14 7:42:56 AM#169
Originally posted by ikcin
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by ikcin
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by ikcin
I'm not using the word brainwash in negative term. It is happen all the time in modern society, every advertising campaign is at least try of brainwashing customers. The negative impact in MMOs for me is, that devs improve dress up elements at expense of other features, transforming dress up in the main goal of gaming.

 

That's not how advertising actually works.

 

"Dress up" is not the main goal of gaming (that I am aware of).

 

Cosmetic features are popular, but they always have been, whether as developer features or mods.

 

Other factors have had a much larger impact on gaming.  For instance, the rapid increase in cost associated with graphics engines and developing the assets for those grahics engines.Relatively speaking, much more game play is going to be sacrified to improve graphics than to add other game play elements because the cost for graphics has risen so much more than other elements of game development.

 

It might be helpful if you gave specific examples of how games have gone from being about game play to being about the cosmetic features.  A "before" and "after" so people had something concrete to talk about.

Differences among Gw1 and GW2 are very good example. In fact both use the same engine, with some improvements in GW2. 

 

 

Neither GW1 nor GW2 are all about the fashion.  Both are very much about the PvP, which requires the gear.  Players have the option to change the appearance of their gear, but they are not going to trade worse stats for a better looking item and then compete in the game's main game play.

 

Two things are required for your theory to be true.  One, the games need to have a fashion element.  Two, the games need to be primarily about that fashion element, with extra points for trading a previous focus, such as PvP for a the new focus of fashion.

 

Unless I'm mistaken, you have yet to show a case where this has happened.

 

**

 

Perhaps you have gone too far with hyperbole?

 

GW2 is about PvP!? Dude... One simple hint - there is no 1vs1 PvP in GW2. Second - there is no guild wars. It is not FFA PvP game. There is one big PvE world - which is GW2 in fact. Some mindless RvRvR zerg in which you even don't know the names of your opponents, and they are speechless like mobs. And there are Mists - some Moba style PvP, which is totally out of the entire game. So yeah, we have dress up game, mindless zerg, and some Moba.

And about the theory, it sounds cool, is it right or not we will see. But it sounds cool cause you can find its happening in almost every new MMORPG. And your armor is not fancy like mine :)

 

Well, there's your problem.  You've taken the concept of PvP, and limited it to FFA PvP and  1v1 at that.  The reason you don't see any games that are about that style of PvP is because there have never been any games about that style of PvP.  The idea shouldn't be limited to PvP though.  A formerly raid based PvE game would have to have dropped the idea of raids or gearing up for raids in favor of dressing up characters for raids.  The best looking gear would be more desirable than the better performing gear.

 

This is either a troll, or you're just wrong.  Games where it's possible to "dress up" don't prove any of your points.  There are no games that have dropped their primary game play mechanics (PvP or PvE) in favor of playing "dress up".  To the best of my knowledge there does not exist a 1v1 PvP MMORPG.  I'm not aware of any FFA PvP MMORPG that has dropped the PvP aspects of the game in favor of playing "dress up".

 

Oh, wait.  I get it now.  This is just another "games used to be worlds" thread.  Every old game allowed players to skill up, not requiring gear, and every game had FFA PvP and that's how you could tell they were worlds.  Right.  FFA PvP isn't a common game mechanic and gear matters, so that's how we can tell everything is a "pret-a-porter brainwash".

 

Do I get a cookie or an internets or something?

 

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  ikcin

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/15/13
Posts: 383

 
OP  4/14/14 8:21:47 AM#170
Originally posted by lizardbones

Well, there's your problem.  You've taken the concept of PvP, and limited it to FFA PvP and  1v1 at that.  The reason you don't see any games that are about that style of PvP is because there have never been any games about that style of PvP.  The idea shouldn't be limited to PvP though.  A formerly raid based PvE game would have to have dropped the idea of raids or gearing up for raids in favor of dressing up characters for raids.  The best looking gear would be more desirable than the better performing gear.

This is either a troll, or you're just wrong.  Games where it's possible to "dress up" don't prove any of your points.  There are no games that have dropped their primary game play mechanics (PvP or PvE) in favor of playing "dress up".  To the best of my knowledge there does not exist a 1v1 PvP MMORPG.  I'm not aware of any FFA PvP MMORPG that has dropped the PvP aspects of the game in favor of playing "dress up". 

Oh, wait.  I get it now.  This is just another "games used to be worlds" thread.  Every old game allowed players to skill up, not requiring gear, and every game had FFA PvP and that's how you could tell they were worlds.  Right.  FFA PvP isn't a common game mechanic and gear matters, so that's how we can tell everything is a "pret-a-porter brainwash". 

Do I get a cookie or an internets or something?

 

You are WRONG :) Sry. FFA with 1vs1 PvP, let me see... Lineage 2! And half of the eastern MMOs. Maybe you play too much western MMOs. But it is not about PvP. Give me trade, politics, economics, give me something but not dressing up. Pls.

And sry but I don't like aesthetic of nudes colonies. I'm a fashion man, just not in MMORPGs :)

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10635

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

4/14/14 9:27:03 AM#171
Originally posted by ikcin
Originally posted by lizardbones

Well, there's your problem.  You've taken the concept of PvP, and limited it to FFA PvP and  1v1 at that.  The reason you don't see any games that are about that style of PvP is because there have never been any games about that style of PvP.  The idea shouldn't be limited to PvP though.  A formerly raid based PvE game would have to have dropped the idea of raids or gearing up for raids in favor of dressing up characters for raids.  The best looking gear would be more desirable than the better performing gear.

This is either a troll, or you're just wrong.  Games where it's possible to "dress up" don't prove any of your points.  There are no games that have dropped their primary game play mechanics (PvP or PvE) in favor of playing "dress up".  To the best of my knowledge there does not exist a 1v1 PvP MMORPG.  I'm not aware of any FFA PvP MMORPG that has dropped the PvP aspects of the game in favor of playing "dress up". 

Oh, wait.  I get it now.  This is just another "games used to be worlds" thread.  Every old game allowed players to skill up, not requiring gear, and every game had FFA PvP and that's how you could tell they were worlds.  Right.  FFA PvP isn't a common game mechanic and gear matters, so that's how we can tell everything is a "pret-a-porter brainwash". 

Do I get a cookie or an internets or something?

 

You are WRONG :) Sry. FFA with 1vs1 PvP, let me see... Lineage 2! And half of the eastern MMOs. Maybe you play too much western MMOs. But it is not about PvP. Give me trade, politics, economics, give me something but not dressing up. Pls.

And sry but I don't like aesthetic of nudes colonies. I'm a fashion man, just not in MMORPGs :)

 

Fair enough.  I'm not knowledgeable about all MMORPGs, everywhere.  If Lineage 2 is a 1v1 PvP game, then they exist.  So, point for you on 1v1 PvP MMORPGs.

 

It may not look like it, but we're making some progress here.  If you could modify a game to make it not about fashion, how would you do it?  Take GW2 for instance.  How would you remove the "fashion" elements of the game?  Would all the gear look the same?  Would players no longer have any visual indicators as to the relative power levels of other players?  How would you do it?

 

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Creatorzim

Novice Member

Joined: 11/15/11
Posts: 281

4/14/14 9:40:30 AM#172
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by ikcin
Originally posted by lizardbones

Well, there's your problem.  You've taken the concept of PvP, and limited it to FFA PvP and  1v1 at that.  The reason you don't see any games that are about that style of PvP is because there have never been any games about that style of PvP.  The idea shouldn't be limited to PvP though.  A formerly raid based PvE game would have to have dropped the idea of raids or gearing up for raids in favor of dressing up characters for raids.  The best looking gear would be more desirable than the better performing gear.

This is either a troll, or you're just wrong.  Games where it's possible to "dress up" don't prove any of your points.  There are no games that have dropped their primary game play mechanics (PvP or PvE) in favor of playing "dress up".  To the best of my knowledge there does not exist a 1v1 PvP MMORPG.  I'm not aware of any FFA PvP MMORPG that has dropped the PvP aspects of the game in favor of playing "dress up". 

Oh, wait.  I get it now.  This is just another "games used to be worlds" thread.  Every old game allowed players to skill up, not requiring gear, and every game had FFA PvP and that's how you could tell they were worlds.  Right.  FFA PvP isn't a common game mechanic and gear matters, so that's how we can tell everything is a "pret-a-porter brainwash". 

Do I get a cookie or an internets or something?

 

You are WRONG :) Sry. FFA with 1vs1 PvP, let me see... Lineage 2! And half of the eastern MMOs. Maybe you play too much western MMOs. But it is not about PvP. Give me trade, politics, economics, give me something but not dressing up. Pls.

And sry but I don't like aesthetic of nudes colonies. I'm a fashion man, just not in MMORPGs :)

 

Fair enough.  I'm not knowledgeable about all MMORPGs, everywhere.  If Lineage 2 is a 1v1 PvP game, then they exist.  So, point for you on 1v1 PvP MMORPGs.

 

It may not look like it, but we're making some progress here.  If you could modify a game to make it not about fashion, how would you do it?  Take GW2 for instance.  How would you remove the "fashion" elements of the game?  Would all the gear look the same?  Would players no longer have any visual indicators as to the relative power levels of other players?  How would you do it?

 

Wow has 1v1 pvp and has probably way more players doing it than there are Lineage players. 

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10635

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

4/14/14 9:51:46 AM#173
Originally posted by Creatorzim
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by ikcin
Originally posted by lizardbones

Well, there's your problem.  You've taken the concept of PvP, and limited it to FFA PvP and  1v1 at that.  The reason you don't see any games that are about that style of PvP is because there have never been any games about that style of PvP.  The idea shouldn't be limited to PvP though.  A formerly raid based PvE game would have to have dropped the idea of raids or gearing up for raids in favor of dressing up characters for raids.  The best looking gear would be more desirable than the better performing gear.

This is either a troll, or you're just wrong.  Games where it's possible to "dress up" don't prove any of your points.  There are no games that have dropped their primary game play mechanics (PvP or PvE) in favor of playing "dress up".  To the best of my knowledge there does not exist a 1v1 PvP MMORPG.  I'm not aware of any FFA PvP MMORPG that has dropped the PvP aspects of the game in favor of playing "dress up". 

Oh, wait.  I get it now.  This is just another "games used to be worlds" thread.  Every old game allowed players to skill up, not requiring gear, and every game had FFA PvP and that's how you could tell they were worlds.  Right.  FFA PvP isn't a common game mechanic and gear matters, so that's how we can tell everything is a "pret-a-porter brainwash". 

Do I get a cookie or an internets or something?

 

You are WRONG :) Sry. FFA with 1vs1 PvP, let me see... Lineage 2! And half of the eastern MMOs. Maybe you play too much western MMOs. But it is not about PvP. Give me trade, politics, economics, give me something but not dressing up. Pls.

And sry but I don't like aesthetic of nudes colonies. I'm a fashion man, just not in MMORPGs :)

 

Fair enough.  I'm not knowledgeable about all MMORPGs, everywhere.  If Lineage 2 is a 1v1 PvP game, then they exist.  So, point for you on 1v1 PvP MMORPGs.

 

It may not look like it, but we're making some progress here.  If you could modify a game to make it not about fashion, how would you do it?  Take GW2 for instance.  How would you remove the "fashion" elements of the game?  Would all the gear look the same?  Would players no longer have any visual indicators as to the relative power levels of other players?  How would you do it?

 

Wow has 1v1 pvp and has probably way more players doing it than there are Lineage players. 

 

WoW's central game play does not revolve around 1v1 PvP game play.  It exists, but it can be said to exist in any game that has a dueling capability and the option to flag for PvP.

 

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  ikcin

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/15/13
Posts: 383

 
OP  4/14/14 3:34:59 PM#174
Originally posted by lizardbones
Fair enough.  I'm not knowledgeable about all MMORPGs, everywhere.  If Lineage 2 is a 1v1 PvP game, then they exist.  So, point for you on 1v1 PvP MMORPGs.
It may not look like it, but we're making some progress here.  If you could modify a game to make it not about fashion, how would you do it?  Take GW2 for instance.  How would you remove the "fashion" elements of the game?  Would all the gear look the same?  Would players no longer have any visual indicators as to the relative power levels of other players?  How would you do it? 

You want not only criticism, but a solution. I'm not very sure for solutions... but OK. We don't need to remove fashion elements from GW2, but to make them a matter of choice. If we merge the game in one entity, with FFA PvP, tournaments, and 1vs1 PvP, integrated politics /not just pointless events/ with election of players, p2p trade, GW2 will be still a themepark game, but not a dress up game. And smarter raids will help a lot too :) /epic raids in GW2 are epic dull/ So you don't need to remove dress up at all, you need also other features and goals, along with dress up. 

  PatrickY

Novice Member

Joined: 12/01/11
Posts: 1

4/14/14 5:03:01 PM#175

There's a lot of really weird stuff that's been said in this thread, but the idea that fashion didn't exist until Marie Antoinette just absolutely takes the cake. What... did she rise up from the sea like the Birth of Venus, hair immaculately coiffed in the world's first bouffant, bringing the gift of petticoats and corsets to all?

 

 

  Creatorzim

Novice Member

Joined: 11/15/11
Posts: 281

4/14/14 5:11:18 PM#176
Originally posted by PatrickY

There's a lot of really weird stuff that's been said in this thread, but the idea that fashion didn't exist until Marie Antoinette just absolutely takes the cake. What... did she rise up from the sea like the Birth of Venus, hair immaculately coiffed in the world's first bouffant, bringing the gift of petticoats and corsets to all?

 

 

Ya purple dye was discovered in the 400 BC....Used to show wealth...A little before the 1700 AD I would say lol. Not a new concept.

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4801

4/14/14 5:15:54 PM#177
This thread reads like a monty python skit. Who's going to take another crack at the crazy guy in the tower. 18 pages of people trying to be all rational and explain something to a guy who's trying to load a cow into the catapult.

There's a saying about evolution and why we have two eyes and two ears but only one mouth. Clearly it didn't see the internet coming or it never would have given us ten fingers to type with.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10635

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

4/14/14 5:25:54 PM#178
Originally posted by ikcin
Originally posted by lizardbones
Fair enough.  I'm not knowledgeable about all MMORPGs, everywhere.  If Lineage 2 is a 1v1 PvP game, then they exist.  So, point for you on 1v1 PvP MMORPGs.
It may not look like it, but we're making some progress here.  If you could modify a game to make it not about fashion, how would you do it?  Take GW2 for instance.  How would you remove the "fashion" elements of the game?  Would all the gear look the same?  Would players no longer have any visual indicators as to the relative power levels of other players?  How would you do it? 

You want not only criticism, but a solution. I'm not very sure for solutions... but OK. We don't need to remove fashion elements from GW2, but to make them a matter of choice. If we merge the game in one entity, with FFA PvP, tournaments, and 1vs1 PvP, integrated politics /not just pointless events/ with election of players, p2p trade, GW2 will be still a themepark game, but not a dress up game. And smarter raids will help a lot too :) /epic raids in GW2 are epic dull/ So you don't need to remove dress up at all, you need also other features and goals, along with dress up. 

 

You are the one who brought up GW1 and GW2 as examples of what you were talking about.  I am trying to figure out how they apply to what you are talking about.  If they are an example of fashion elements taking over a game, what would take them out of the category of what you are talking about?  I am not asking for a solution, I am asking for a clarification of your stance.  Depending on the clarity of what you are saying or thinking, this shouldn't be all that hard to do.  I find this necessary because you keep throwing in what appear to be random elements as descriptions of what you are talking about.

 

I think part of the problem is that what you are saying doesn't make sense or is not clearly stated.  What does making the fashion elements in GW2 a matter of choice mean?  Does it mean that all the gear looks more or less the same, but players can skin the gear?  Because if it means players can choose gear without regard to the gear's appearance, they can already do that.

 

What do any of the elements you listed (FFA PvP, tournaments, 1v1 PvP, integrated politics with election of players, p2p trade, smarter/epic raids) have to do with fashion elements in GW2?  Adding or enhancing any of these elements would leave any fashion elements unchanged.  What does GW2 being a themepark game have to do with the fashion elements of the game?

 

Mostly what I want to know is if you've ever played either GW1 or GW2?  The games consists of PvE leveling, group PvP for leveling and at end game and an increasing number of PvE game elements, none of which rely on dressing your character up or even knowing what your character looks like.  Since fashion is a function of appearance, and appearance in GW1/GW2 isn't a consideration unless the players want it to be, it doesn't seem like GW1 or GW2 are good examples of fashion being the primary game mechanic in a game.

 

Fashion is about appearance.  Players are either dressing up their avatars to the exclusion of other game elements*, or the game itself has been made to look too fashionable.  Since it doesn't seem like GW1/GW2 are fashion oriented games (even though it's possible to care about appearance in the games), are you perhaps saying that the art style is too stylized and unrealistic?

 

* Like, say, IMVU, where the avatar's appearance is one of the most important game play elements as it relates to interacting with other players.

 

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  User Deleted
4/14/14 6:36:36 PM#179
You do realize that GW2 has customizable look independent of stats that's being improved upon therefore making your argument completely false.
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19773

4/14/14 6:46:45 PM#180
Originally posted by Fenrir767
You do realize that GW2 has customizable look independent of stats that's being improved upon therefore making your argument completely false.

Heck .. even D3 has that ....

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