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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why the hate for quests?

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171 posts found
  Xiaoki

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/07/04
Posts: 2437

4/04/14 5:27:30 PM#61

Nothing wrong with quests. Voice and cinematic presentation has made questing more palatable but the paragraph of text is still fine. Of course, most are too lazy to actually read them but wont admit it.


As an alternative to questing most people respond "MMOs are supposed to be about making your own story".
Ok ....how?


GW2s dynamic event system was a good alternative in theory but the implementation in GW2 is so poor that it might hinder the progress of dynamic event driven MMOs in the future.

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3071

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

4/04/14 5:27:53 PM#62


Originally posted by dave6660

Originally posted by kabitoshin
Soo.... lets go back to grinding mobs?

Players complain about grinding mobs without any sort of instruction.  But they like if the computer tells them to grind mobs.  Very strange.

Sorry, Dave, but I gotta kick in here. It's not the computer telling me to, but rather helping me get to know the world that my character is in better. Quests, if done well, have little stories that may have lore or other little tidbits revealed.

Yes, in the most literal sense, the computer is telling players to go kill Mobs. Is there a way that computers do NOT tell a player this? It gives you rewards and XP for doing so, so if you want to reach the next level or get good gear, the computer tells players, albeit more subtly, "Go. Kill. Mobs." Quests just make it more specific :)

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Flyte27

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/13/05
Posts: 2255

4/05/14 7:14:00 AM#63
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by dave6660

Originally posted by kabitoshin
Soo.... lets go back to grinding mobs?


Players complain about grinding mobs without any sort of instruction.  But they like if the computer tells them to grind mobs.  Very strange.

Sorry, Dave, but I gotta kick in here. It's not the computer telling me to, but rather helping me get to know the world that my character is in better. Quests, if done well, have little stories that may have lore or other little tidbits revealed.

 

Yes, in the most literal sense, the computer is telling players to go kill Mobs. Is there a way that computers do NOT tell a player this? It gives you rewards and XP for doing so, so if you want to reach the next level or get good gear, the computer tells players, albeit more subtly, "Go. Kill. Mobs." Quests just make it more specific :)

Quests should be so much more than just a little story and lore that is boring to most people.  Considering how many quests are in MMOs now there is only so much you can take without wanting to click through them.  In older games you focused more on making your own story and lore while playing the game.  Now you just follow some developers boring idea of a story 1000 times over.  None of the quests actually challenge you in any way.  They are all about killing.  Yes quests don't have to involve going from point a to point b and killing always. 

  iixviiiix

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 477

4/05/14 7:42:19 AM#64
Originally posted by Xiaoki


As an alternative to questing most people respond "MMOs are supposed to be about making your own story".
Ok ....how?

 

Maybe build up a strong guild and become lord of castle after castle siege .

Or one assassin and a warrior win again 7 man party in open PVP battle base on they skill .

First magician who search highest level .

Kill over 300 players in a single castle siege battle .

First time take down sleeping dragon , i think that's nice story .

Or lord British assassination lol , it may call a bug but that kind of story don't have in any quest .

 

There are many personal story too , but it not well crafted as nowadays quests , still hard to forget them.

 

You know like how 2 sword crash give birth for sparks , personal stories are the spark create base on that concept .

  Flyte27

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/13/05
Posts: 2255

4/05/14 8:01:36 AM#65
Originally posted by iixviiiix
Originally posted by Xiaoki


As an alternative to questing most people respond "MMOs are supposed to be about making your own story".
Ok ....how?

 

Maybe build up a strong guild and become lord of castle after castle siege .

Or one assassin and a warrior win again 7 man party in open PVP battle base on they skill .

First magician who search highest level .

Kill over 300 players in a single castle siege battle .

First time take down sleeping dragon , i think that's nice story .

Or lord British assassination lol , it may call a bug but that kind of story don't have in any quest .

 

There are many personal story too , but it not well crafted as nowadays quests , still hard to forget them.

 

You know like how 2 sword crash give birth for sparks , personal stories are the spark create base on that concept .

I can tell you the difference between a story that just happens in game vs a story written by the devs.  The story that just happens as you are playing the game can be shared with other people.  The story written by the devs is happening almost exactly the same for everyone.  There is nothing worth sharing here.  It is just going through what everyone else is going through.

An example might be making a long trip across the country to another town.  Some gnolls attacked you (aggroed) and you were dying quickly.  You cast your cleric temporary invincibility spell and jumped off the ledge to land safely at the bottom.  From there you proceeded to run to the zone.  Fate has been cheated once more!  Thank the gods!

Another might be I was on a journey to one of the foulest dungeons in the land (non instanced) to get an item of great power.  As I explored the dungeon I realized it was deep an confusing (like a labyrinth).  I soon became lost and feared something nasty might be around the next corner (respawn on top of me/agro :)).  I fear the necromancer's in this place as they are foul creatures.  The last encounter I had with them didn't go well.  They cast some sort of nasty fear spell upon me and then snared/dot me with some kind of disease spell.  As luck would have it another person was camping for said item as well!  I shouted to them in the dungeon and we were able to meet up.  From there we were able to camp and defeat the foul creatures that dropped the item I so coveted.  Then we slowly worked our way out of the windy and twisted maze until sunlight once again touched our faces.

You might not be thinking something like this in your head, but as you go and do things in the game and things happen that is a story just like in life when you go around and do things that is a story.  You don't make the story before hand.  It just happens as you go.

  SomeHuman

Novice Member

Joined: 1/24/12
Posts: 268

4/05/14 8:21:19 AM#66
Interesting thread.  I feel quests are not so much fun because of a few elements.  
  • Hand-holding: Walk to glowing spot on map or similar.  Don't read the dialogue.  Don't go to the town and figure out the hints or the directions by reading signs or looking at buildings or asking NPC's.  Just walk over to that glowing dot.
  • Glowing dot over quest-givers: Same as first bullet.
  • Objectives are two easily obtained: This not only affects the challenge and success felt by a single player, but it demotes group-play to a lower level of need.
  • Come back when you are level fifteen for this quest.  When I would adventure out with the eight guys in my tabletop group, we'd only realize we weren't strong enough when we got weak and ran away with our tails between our legs. On a really poorly decided venture, we'd return with a mate's body; worse, no body at times.
I agree with what some have said about the player's making the story.  I have more solid memories of running around with my DarkFall brothers on missions or sieges that we gave ourselves.  And sometimes riding away on our warpigs with our tales between our legs being chased by an army of players.  Looking back at my list, I see a theme of quests not being elusive enough and creating enough risk to be enjoyed.

Gaming since 1985; Online gaming since 1995; No End in Sight! My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8POVoJ8fdOseuJ4U1ZX-oA

  iixviiiix

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 477

4/05/14 8:47:25 AM#67
Originally posted by Flyte27
Originally posted by iixviiiix
Originally posted by Xiaoki


As an alternative to questing most people respond "MMOs are supposed to be about making your own story".
Ok ....how?

   ................................

  ...............

You might not be thinking something like this in your head, but as you go and do things in the game and things happen that is a story just like in life when you go around and do things that is a story.  You don't make the story before hand.  It just happens as you go.

That's how so call "your own story" created .

Sadly nowadays game cut a lots element needed to make that kind of stories ... instanced

The gears don't meet with other so that kind of story are no more.

 

I believe that kind of stories are what hook players to the old old MMORPG , make them log in everyday though the games are brainless grind most time and don't have much active like nowadays MMORPGs.

It work like "drug" .

Maybe who come from that old day are want that "drug" too much that they can't satisfying with lighter drug like instances quests and dungeons .

 

lol , more you research , more sinister true MMORPGs are .

  jdizzle2k13

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/06/13
Posts: 117

Don't worry about the past. Look at how to shape your future.

4/05/14 9:22:23 AM#68


In all honesty, I don't care for quests.

With that being said, if there is a tangible reward for doing quests (more money/better gear/better looking gear/map completion/whatever) I don't mind doing some, but I don't like doing the same ones over and over, so if I level a different character, I will try to go to different level appropriate areas than the first character.

My most preferred method of leveling is through dungeons, pvp, or both, whichever is more fun for me in the particular game.



  dave6660

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2338

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

4/05/14 11:50:31 AM#69
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by dave6660

Originally posted by kabitoshin
Soo.... lets go back to grinding mobs?


Players complain about grinding mobs without any sort of instruction.  But they like if the computer tells them to grind mobs.  Very strange.

Sorry, Dave, but I gotta kick in here. It's not the computer telling me to, but rather helping me get to know the world that my character is in better. Quests, if done well, have little stories that may have lore or other little tidbits revealed.

 

Yes, in the most literal sense, the computer is telling players to go kill Mobs. Is there a way that computers do NOT tell a player this? It gives you rewards and XP for doing so, so if you want to reach the next level or get good gear, the computer tells players, albeit more subtly, "Go. Kill. Mobs." Quests just make it more specific :)

C'mon.  You're romanticizing quests quite a bit there.  "Go kill 10 deer" is a pretty standard quest and it does nothing to "get to know the world".

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16610

4/05/14 12:01:12 PM#70

I don't really hate the quests in themselves but I do hate an overfull questlog. Quests just feels so grindy and unimportant when you can collect a zillion and do later.

Large quests that you only can have a very limited of at a time is still fun and so is dynamic quests that just starts when you are around but the old EQ quest (Ok, Meridian 59 had them first) just seems boring to me nowadays.

Another problem is that long questlines with many small steps tend to split up the population, I can't do them with my friends since we all are on different ones.

I think that quests should be revamped so they feel more like the epic things we read about in books (throw the ring in mount Doom, defeat the dark one in the last battle, take back your throne with your 3 dragons) and not so much about cleaning the stables or killing of pests.

Fewer but greater quests would be more fun for me at least.

And frankly have quests been around as long as there been MMOs and while they do have improved I think there is a lot more that can be better, many people have just tired of killing 10 rats and similar.

  Bigdaddyx

Elite Member

Joined: 5/24/10
Posts: 1512

4/05/14 12:15:58 PM#71

I don't hate quests. I hate quests very devs are not even trying and just copy paste the old format.

I love questing in ESO and TSW. So it is not the quests which are the problem but how they are presented.

  Gormogon

Novice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 155

4/05/14 1:44:29 PM#72

I might hate individual quests, but I love questing.

 

I think in some ways we've seen some horrible practices proliferate, like overreliance on hubs and the elimination of context for objectives (see WildStar).  On the other hand, TSW has expanded the possibilities for what can make fun quests beyond just killing W, picking up N of X and delivering it to Y, or bringing this package/letter to Z.  Playing through MoP recently, even WoW I think has gotten pretty good at wrapping objectives in narrative (something I think WoW has usually been better at than games that tried to imitate its questing style anyway).  The questing in Valley of the Four Winds and Krasarang Wilds in Pandaria is IMO among the best WoW has ever offered, insofar as the objectives themselves are buried beneath the feeling that you're there to help the characters you interact with.  GW2's dynamic events are mostly just repeatable quests without the ! and ?, but they can also be good at offering spontaneity and a chain of events that get you involved in what is happening rather than just completing objectives. 

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15527

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

4/05/14 2:04:01 PM#73
Originally posted by dave6660
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by dave6660
Originally posted by kabitoshin
Soo.... lets go back to grinding mobs?

Players complain about grinding mobs without any sort of instruction.  But they like if the computer tells them to grind mobs.  Very strange.

Why is it strange? Quests are dressed up excused to kill stuff .. and the dressing up give the illusion of purpose and makes it more fun.

All the SP games do that much better. MMO should learn from that. If you look at a game like Tomb Raider, there are essentially two types of gameplay .. kill everything in sight .. or find the movement/puzzle to get to the other side. It is so good partly because they dress up these two basic "quests" with stories, scripting and events inside and outside of gameplay.

 

That's why it's strange.  You can kill stuff no matter what.  Why do you need the computer to tell you do it?  You don't need the computer to give you purpose either.  Make up your own purpose.

IF that's what you want to do then have at it..

DO you not understand the difference between Diablo and a Story based RPG though? It's two completely different focuses. While you may kill mobs on a quest, that is not the purpose of a quest, a quest has another goal, that typically ties into a greater overall arch, it's a completely different approach than here's some mobs they're essentially pinatas have at thee..

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3071

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

4/06/14 4:44:47 AM#74


Originally posted by Flyte27

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

Originally posted by dave6660

Originally posted by kabitoshin
Soo.... lets go back to grinding mobs?

Players complain about grinding mobs without any sort of instruction.  But they like if the computer tells them to grind mobs.  Very strange.

Sorry, Dave, but I gotta kick in here. It's not the computer telling me to, but rather helping me get to know the world that my character is in better. Quests, if done well, have little stories that may have lore or other little tidbits revealed.

Yes, in the most literal sense, the computer is telling players to go kill Mobs. Is there a way that computers do NOT tell a player this? It gives you rewards and XP for doing so, so if you want to reach the next level or get good gear, the computer tells players, albeit more subtly, "Go. Kill. Mobs." Quests just make it more specific :)



Quests should be so much more than just a little story and lore that is boring to most people.  Considering how many quests are in MMOs now there is only so much you can take without wanting to click through them.  In older games you focused more on making your own story and lore while playing the game.  Now you just follow some developers boring idea of a story 1000 times over.  None of the quests actually challenge you in any way.  They are all about killing.  Yes quests don't have to involve going from point a to point b and killing always. 

Great points, and I agree. Quests today are so overdone and meaningless, it is boring.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3071

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

4/06/14 4:51:21 AM#75


Originally posted by dave6660

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

Originally posted by dave6660

Originally posted by kabitoshin
Soo.... lets go back to grinding mobs?

Players complain about grinding mobs without any sort of instruction.  But they like if the computer tells them to grind mobs.  Very strange.

Sorry, Dave, but I gotta kick in here. It's not the computer telling me to, but rather helping me get to know the world that my character is in better. Quests, if done well, have little stories that may have lore or other little tidbits revealed.

Yes, in the most literal sense, the computer is telling players to go kill Mobs. Is there a way that computers do NOT tell a player this? It gives you rewards and XP for doing so, so if you want to reach the next level or get good gear, the computer tells players, albeit more subtly, "Go. Kill. Mobs." Quests just make it more specific :)



C'mon.  You're romanticizing quests quite a bit there.  "Go kill 10 deer" is a pretty standard quest and it does nothing to "get to know the world".

You're right, of course. What quests could be and what they usually are are two very different things :)

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
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  fivoroth

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4/06/14 6:59:08 AM#76

Quests rule bro, that's why WoW is the most successful MMO of all time and everyone, even my grandma knows about it. EQ on the other side which had went the grinding way or the high way -  failed miserably. When you say Everquest to people, they will be like "Everwhat?" And then you are like "Whatever".

Quests = the future!

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  lizardbones

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4/06/14 7:49:05 AM#77
Originally posted by Dauntis

Why do so many people on these forums hate quests?

I see a lot of folks seethe hatred for quests, I just picture the old D&D cartoon Dungeon Master aproaching them and saying something like. "Oh mighty hero, I have a quest for thee!" and then the player spitting in his face and kicking him in the groin for having the odacity to give them a quest.

I guess I just don't get the hatred.

 

1) Lack of Alternatives - questing is often not just the primary mechanic, it's the only mechanic.  WoW has set things up so that players can level using the dungeon system, but that takes players...

2) Out of the Open World - Questing is in the world, but even if the world is open it often creates a linear closed world feeling.  Alternatives such as PvP (battlegrounds) or Dungeons do the same thing.  They are alternatives to questing, but they may not provide the desired experience.

3) Lack of Depth and General Shoddy Quality - one of the things about questing is that it seems many quests exist simply to fill space.  The player does not even need to read the quest to know what to do, and if quest helpers are turned off, they are only reading the quest to get the mechanical details necessary to complete the quest; where to go, who to kill, how many of who to kill and what to collect.  Players have a pile of quests that they complete in an assembly line fashion that negates any of the positive, story based qualities of the quests.

 

That's all I can think of.  I am personally OK with quests*, but I would prefer fewer quests with more depth.  To me, MMORPG questing should be like playing a single player game's "quests", where you are following the path, but unlike the single player game's "quests" the path can branch, and if you decide to, you can just strike out and find a different path to follow for awhile.  Along with all of this, there should be "open world" options as well.  Things that might have progression, such as crafting, but which don't necessarily depend on your progression through the quest lines.

 

* Evidenced by how I can keep playing WoW every so often for a month or two.

 

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  Briansho

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4/06/14 12:08:07 PM#78

MMOs have three type of players

1. Players who complain about grinding and fetch/kill quests telling them exactly what to do.

2. Players who complain when there are no grinding fetch/kill quests because they don't know what to do.

3. Players who figure everything out on their own and learn to play the game.

 

1 and 2 bring in the most stable subscription and in-game purchase profits.

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  DrunkWolf

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4/06/14 12:13:45 PM#79
Originally posted by Dauntis

Why do so many people on these forums hate quests?

I see a lot of folks seethe hatred for quests, I just picture the old D&D cartoon Dungeon Master aproaching them and saying something like. "Oh mighty hero, I have a quest for thee!" and then the player spitting in his face and kicking him in the groin for having the odacity to give them a quest.

I guess I just don't get the hatred.

Sorry but running around delivering letters to other NPCs isnt what i consider a " quest ".

Running around to a giant X on the map to kill 10 what ever isnt a " quest ".

Going into a linear dungeon that a blind person could navigate to the end isnt a " quest ".

They might be considered Quest the first time you do it, but when you have to do the same thing 100 times in each quest hub i dont consider them " quest " anymore. now they are annoying jobs to do for xp.

Would rather do mindless grinding at this point than mindless running around doing UPS work.

  Kyleran

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4/06/14 12:27:40 PM#80
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by dave6660

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

Originally posted by dave6660

Originally posted by kabitoshin
Soo.... lets go back to grinding mobs?


Players complain about grinding mobs without any sort of instruction.  But they like if the computer tells them to grind mobs.  Very strange.

Sorry, Dave, but I gotta kick in here. It's not the computer telling me to, but rather helping me get to know the world that my character is in better. Quests, if done well, have little stories that may have lore or other little tidbits revealed.

 

Yes, in the most literal sense, the computer is telling players to go kill Mobs. Is there a way that computers do NOT tell a player this? It gives you rewards and XP for doing so, so if you want to reach the next level or get good gear, the computer tells players, albeit more subtly, "Go. Kill. Mobs." Quests just make it more specific :)



C'mon.  You're romanticizing quests quite a bit there.  "Go kill 10 deer" is a pretty standard quest and it does nothing to "get to know the world".

You're right, of course. What quests could be and what they usually are are two very different things :)

 

Actually.... I'm level 13 now in ESO, and I am going to have to admit, the quality of the quests the last 3 or 4 levels has really gone up a notch.  Not your average kill or courier tasks by any means.  I'm over on DC, and some of the quests included healing the Wryd Tree, Clearing out a town of its werewolf leader and a bunch of other great stories.

I might actually have to admit.... that I'm enjoying doing these quests......

Naw.... back to hating. 

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Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
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