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EVE Online

EVE Online 

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278 posts found
  User Deleted
3/26/14 2:53:56 PM#21
Originally posted by Wizardry

Pvp in general is just a really bad negative on a game community.

IMO the entire populace if not so attached to their meaningless virtual assets should have quit CCP when they caught an employee cheating.

That right there is grounds that CCP can NEVER be trusted.You can't have an employee cheat then say,oh ya we got rid of him,nobody even knows if that is true.Fact is your game should not allow employees to cheat,it ruins the integrity of the entire game.I would bet 99% their employees still cheat.

And I bet 99% of the shit you are trying to pass as fact is based on probably a goony touching you in the wrong place in EVE.

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3871

3/26/14 2:54:23 PM#22
Eve is a brilliant game, but it's pve Is really a side note and has no long term beyond generating an income for pvp. Bottom line, eve is for predators.

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (10000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (600 runemaster/Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR

  uplink4242

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/15/08
Posts: 239

3/26/14 2:56:01 PM#23
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by uplink4242
Originally posted by Kyleran

As for this incident, reprehensible for sure,but if CCP steps in to stop it, where does their jurisdiction end?  Do they stop at this one isk doubling scam?  Or do they go after all isk doubling scams?  What are the limits and boundries?  How much pain, loss etc does the victim have to suffer to make it worthy of an intervention?

It's simple. Every TOS has a clasuse somewhere saying that the game company has the right to ban someone for whatever they feel like, and I'm pretty sure a lot of people would agree that the community would be better off witouth people like this guy.

A great many more people would tell you "The Mittani" (Goonswarm leader)  deserves to be banned for life.  Are they right?

Like I said, where does it stop?  Who decides? When do such decisions cross the line?  When is there too much free speech?  Hard lines to draw, once you start trying to.

 

He did face consequences (kicked out of csm) for what he did at the time, and they were only lifted because he publicly came foward and apologized for it. Such is not the case here.

It's not up to you or us to decide when it stops. That's CCP's job and if they value their PR so much they should start doing something about it. 

  User Deleted
3/26/14 2:56:13 PM#24
Originally posted by Bladestrom
Eve is a brilliant game, but it's pve Is really a side note and has no long term beyond generating an income for pvp. Bottom line, eve is for predators.

-is a explorer/pver-

-played EVE for 7 years-

-learned to do defensive PVP and kicked some arse-

Bottom line is actually play the game properly before commenting on something because 0.0 ain't the only "endgame" in EVE.

  hfztt

Elite Member

Joined: 5/31/05
Posts: 703

3/26/14 2:56:25 PM#25
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by uplink4242
Originally posted by Kyleran

As for this incident, reprehensible for sure,but if CCP steps in to stop it, where does their jurisdiction end?  Do they stop at this one isk doubling scam?  Or do they go after all isk doubling scams?  What are the limits and boundries?  How much pain, loss etc does the victim have to suffer to make it worthy of an intervention?

It's simple. Every TOS has a clasuse somewhere saying that the game company has the right to ban someone for whatever they feel like, and I'm pretty sure a lot of people would agree that the community would be better off witouth people like this guy.

A great many more people would tell you "The Mittani" (Goonswarm leader)  deserves to be banned for life.  Are they right?

Like I said, where does it stop?  Who decides? When do such decisions cross the line?  When is there too much free speech?  Hard lines to draw, once you start trying to.

 

Yup. If ever CCP had a reason to ban someone it was The Mittani. His offences were clear and many of them ingame.

CCP's jurisdiction ends when they leave game and talk over TS. What happens in the game during this is strange, yes, but nothing out of the ordinary nor banable.

If I get overly racist in an ingame channel while I play I am eligible for a ban. If I do the same in an IRC channel while playing the game I am not. This is faily simple logic.

These idiots are despicable, but not CCP's problem, or rather CCP can only jusdge them on their ingame actions, and in this case it is within the games limits.

  Reeper

Novice Member

Joined: 8/14/04
Posts: 123

3/26/14 2:59:09 PM#26

      You go to a bank (or any business) to do what you need or want to do there, and if some one is there begging or trying to scam, or just harassing you and the business does not address the issue, you find somewhere else to do your business, I no longer play EVE.

 

   Love the game, the graphics, the theme, the freedom, but not the players that only play the game to disrupt others, if it was only one I could try to avoid that worthless individual, but when they swarm in growing numbers invisible to the devs that want to sell me on this game?, I consider the Devs just a guilty, therefor the game is worthless to me as I am to the game.

 

                  

  h0urg1ass

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/29/05
Posts: 308

3/26/14 3:07:16 PM#27

Both parties are at fault here.  There's simply no other way to look at this particular case.

1)  Erotica1 is the lowest form of human life on Earth.  He's a sociopath who should spend the rest of his life in solitary confinement and allow him no contact with society.  This type of person cannot feel empathy for anyone but themselves and in fact, they always view themselves as the victim in any situation.  Even in this situation he will find a way to twist the facts in order to believe that he is in fact the victim here.

This type of person should be banned from EVE along with his cohorts.  Any game company that turns its eyes on such a clear cut case of sociopathic malevolence is 100% absolutely wrong.  No amount of "EVE is supposed to be evil" will ever convince me otherwise.  He simply has no place in this community.  

Scammers DO have a place in EVE.  I have both scammed and been scammed.  It teaches you to carefully consider every action that you make and to choose your friends and contracts wisely.

Sociopaths DO NOT have a place in EVE, and hiding behind "he's just scamming" is an idiotic excuse.

2)  His victim is the product of a coddled and babied society who believes that everything is fair and just.  He's the kind of person who probably got a trophy on the baseball field even when his team lost just because he showed up.   He's gullible in the extreme and he led himself down this path voluntarily.  

Anyone with even an ounce of common sense knows that if it's posted in Jita local chat, then it's a scam.  No one in their right mind hands over all of their possessions and then starts reading wikipedia entries out loud to a group of people on a VOIP server, no matter how much they promise you.  Then to top it off, the way he reacts towards his wife over a video game is absurd.

 

Both of these individuals clearly have psychological issues.   Erotica 1's issues are malevolent and sociopathic.  The victim clearly has cognitive development issues in the area of social interaction to not even once question the acts that he's being asked to perform.

  Boldyn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/29/04
Posts: 266

3/26/14 3:17:50 PM#28

No one, nowhere, in any realm be it fiction or real, will ever give you something for nothing.

 

I am amazed by how naive people can be

  uplink4242

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/15/08
Posts: 239

3/26/14 3:44:16 PM#29
Originally posted by hfztt
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by uplink4242
Originally posted by Kyleran

As for this incident, reprehensible for sure,but if CCP steps in to stop it, where does their jurisdiction end?  Do they stop at this one isk doubling scam?  Or do they go after all isk doubling scams?  What are the limits and boundries?  How much pain, loss etc does the victim have to suffer to make it worthy of an intervention?

It's simple. Every TOS has a clasuse somewhere saying that the game company has the right to ban someone for whatever they feel like, and I'm pretty sure a lot of people would agree that the community would be better off witouth people like this guy.

A great many more people would tell you "The Mittani" (Goonswarm leader)  deserves to be banned for life.  Are they right?

Like I said, where does it stop?  Who decides? When do such decisions cross the line?  When is there too much free speech?  Hard lines to draw, once you start trying to.

 

Yup. If ever CCP had a reason to ban someone it was The Mittani. His offences were clear and many of them ingame.

CCP's jurisdiction ends when they leave game and talk over TS. What happens in the game during this is strange, yes, but nothing out of the ordinary nor banable.

If I get overly racist in an ingame channel while I play I am eligible for a ban. If I do the same in an IRC channel while playing the game I am not. This is faily simple logic.

These idiots are despicable, but not CCP's problem, or rather CCP can only jusdge them on their ingame actions, and in this case it is within the games limits.

Except Mittens did face repercussions at the time. I'm not saying CCP should change their policy and start monitoring cases like this one, but there are exceptions to be made, as they've done before. Even certain scams have been reimbursed and the TOS changed because they were based on variables outside the game: http://themittani.com/features/scam-changed-tos

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19509

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

3/26/14 3:48:00 PM#30
Originally posted by h0urg1ass

Both parties are at fault here.  There's simply no other way to look at this particular case.

1)  Erotica1 is the lowest form of human life on Earth.  He's a sociopath who should spend the rest of his life in solitary confinement and allow him no contact with society.  This type of person cannot feel empathy for anyone but themselves and in fact, they always view themselves as the victim in any situation.  Even in this situation he will find a way to twist the facts in order to believe that he is in fact the victim here.

This type of person should be banned from EVE along with his cohorts.  Any game company that turns its eyes on such a clear cut case of sociopathic malevolence is 100% absolutely wrong.  No amount of "EVE is supposed to be evil" will ever convince me otherwise.  He simply has no place in this community.  

Scammers DO have a place in EVE.  I have both scammed and been scammed.  It teaches you to carefully consider every action that you make and to choose your friends and contracts wisely.

Sociopaths DO NOT have a place in EVE, and hiding behind "he's just scamming" is an idiotic excuse.

2)  His victim is the product of a coddled and babied society who believes that everything is fair and just.  He's the kind of person who probably got a trophy on the baseball field even when his team lost just because he showed up.   He's gullible in the extreme and he led himself down this path voluntarily.  

Anyone with even an ounce of common sense knows that if it's posted in Jita local chat, then it's a scam.  No one in their right mind hands over all of their possessions and then starts reading wikipedia entries out loud to a group of people on a VOIP server, no matter how much they promise you.  Then to top it off, the way he reacts towards his wife over a video game is absurd.

 

Both of these individuals clearly have psychological issues.   Erotica 1's issues are malevolent and sociopathic.  The victim clearly has cognitive development issues in the area of social interaction to not even once question the acts that he's being asked to perform.

I have never scammed anyone in any game, feels "dirty" to me, so therefore I judge you as not worthy of playing EVE.

Wait, you say what you did was not that bad?  I deal with absolutes, all scammers are scum and need to be removed from the game forever?

OK, I really don't believe that, but don't think for a minute there aren't some folks out there who do.

Again, if Erotica did nothing within the game world itself to break it's rules, how can you say CCP should take action to ban him.  What if they find out one of their subscribers has a criminal record in real life, perhaps in embezzeling, should they ban him even if he never breaks a single in-game rule?

Like I said, hard to know where to draw the line.

 

 

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
"People can do with their money what they want. But... that doesn't make it smart" - COORS
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Hulluck

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/19/13
Posts: 477

3/26/14 4:04:52 PM#31
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by h0urg1ass

Both parties are at fault here.  There's simply no other way to look at this particular case.

1)  Erotica1 is the lowest form of human life on Earth.  He's a sociopath who should spend the rest of his life in solitary confinement and allow him no contact with society.  This type of person cannot feel empathy for anyone but themselves and in fact, they always view themselves as the victim in any situation.  Even in this situation he will find a way to twist the facts in order to believe that he is in fact the victim here.

This type of person should be banned from EVE along with his cohorts.  Any game company that turns its eyes on such a clear cut case of sociopathic malevolence is 100% absolutely wrong.  No amount of "EVE is supposed to be evil" will ever convince me otherwise.  He simply has no place in this community.  

Scammers DO have a place in EVE.  I have both scammed and been scammed.  It teaches you to carefully consider every action that you make and to choose your friends and contracts wisely.

Sociopaths DO NOT have a place in EVE, and hiding behind "he's just scamming" is an idiotic excuse.

2)  His victim is the product of a coddled and babied society who believes that everything is fair and just.  He's the kind of person who probably got a trophy on the baseball field even when his team lost just because he showed up.   He's gullible in the extreme and he led himself down this path voluntarily.  

Anyone with even an ounce of common sense knows that if it's posted in Jita local chat, then it's a scam.  No one in their right mind hands over all of their possessions and then starts reading wikipedia entries out loud to a group of people on a VOIP server, no matter how much they promise you.  Then to top it off, the way he reacts towards his wife over a video game is absurd.

 

Both of these individuals clearly have psychological issues.   Erotica 1's issues are malevolent and sociopathic.  The victim clearly has cognitive development issues in the area of social interaction to not even once question the acts that he's being asked to perform.

I have never scammed anyone in any game, feels "dirty" to me, so therefore I judge you as not worthy of playing EVE.

Wait, you say what you did was not that bad?  I deal with absolutes, all scammers are scum and need to be removed from the game forever?

OK, I really don't believe that, but don't think for a minute there aren't some folks out there who do.

Again, if Erotica did nothing within the game world itself to break it's rules, how can you say CCP should take action to ban him.  What if they find out one of their subscribers has a criminal record in real life, perhaps in embezzeling, should they ban him even if he never breaks a single in-game rule?

Like I said, hard to know where to draw the line.

 

 

I don't know that CCP should do anything. Expressed my views earlier edited thoughts in as I was listening to the whole thing.  Let's say if CCP took action on one they should on both.  I've heard worse from scams but the scammers didn't take so long getting the reaction.  That dude was the scary kind of unstable. What his wife said was stupid but her quivering with emotion was a bit much. What he did in the end he should have done early on. He knew the entire time he was scammed. But "What if."   Pretty powerful when you just lost everything.  These guys could have drawn him back in over and over dangling that carrot there even while he was exploding. Disturbing what I just listened to from all parties over a game of all things..

  Hazelle

Novice Member

Joined: 1/20/11
Posts: 773

3/27/14 2:14:57 AM#32
Originally posted by uplink4242
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by cronius77
yeah seriously anyone who falls for stuff like this deserves to get ripped off for being that stupid. While in the article the scammer is obviously some moronic idiot , if players were not so greedy this wouldnt happen now would it? You got these type of players in every game and you cannot blame a community of a video game for having some idiots who love to scam. If you think this is bad maybe you should go look up some of the bullying and issues in wow for example. Games with large playerbases are always going to attract good and bad players alike and the larger the game , the larger your chances are to run into the filth in this world. There is much more vile and evil things going on in this world , this is just immature pricks having fun at the expense of some idiot.

Sending away one's entire list of assets to someone is probably the dumbest thing I've seen in gaming. If someone falls for that I'm not going to have pity for them being scammed. Eve is famous for 'scams', but in reality there has been like 3 scams that actually had an effect in this game over the past 10 years, the rest being nothing but preying on people's massive ignorance that are as elaborate "give me money, I give you twice back" or "give me your weapon, I enchant it for you".

However, the whole mental harassment that came after it is simply disgusting and unethical, and is only going to give a bad name to the community. 

Saying it's not a big deal is also a slippery slope.  There have been people killed in real life over game disputes, but if you look at it, it's actually not a big deal compared to the holocaust and 9/11. For something that happened over a game, it was a big deal, and really gives a bad impression of the community to the outside world.

Pretty much how I see it.

What they did had nothing to do with the game or scamming except that they used the game as a platform to psychologically torture a fellow human being. If they logged off their toons the result would of been the same so I'm not sure what game they were playing but it was not eve online.

CCP should probably come out with a statement deploring the behavior of those "video gamers" for the reasons I've given and ban them from the game.

Scamming is a part of eve but using what you scammed to (as you said) mentally harass is just plain old sick.

  Teala

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/16/04
Posts: 7439

"Really officer, they're herbs."

3/27/14 2:41:31 AM#33

Why is everyone coming down on this...this is EVE, it's a part of it.   What I don't understand is just how someone could be so naive when it is said repeatedly over an over again in local chat in Jita and all the other main trade hubs - don't fall for scams!  Anyone that actually thinks that someone is just going to double your ISK - because they say they will...don't play EVE - you're the reason things like this happen - you're gullible and lack good judgment.   The guy that fell for this scam I do not feel sorry for one bit.   It's like people that believe in God and hand over cash to churches - it's a scam.   If the God of a church is so powerful, what does a church or religion have need of money for - why doesn't your God just provide for it's needs - he is suppose to be all mighty and powerful - or are you not capable of good judgement to understand this - hmmmm?  

Oh and don't try to tell me I'm just as bad as the scammers that did this because I don't feel sorry for this guy...that guy at one point actually knew he had been scammed and yet "he allowed" them to continue on.   All he had to do was stop.   So more than once this person showed bad judgement.   In fact he did it 4 times.   So no, I don't feel bad for this person.   And his language toward the end of the sound clip...that is inexcusable. 

  Hazelle

Novice Member

Joined: 1/20/11
Posts: 773

3/27/14 4:51:45 AM#34
Originally posted by Teala

Why is everyone coming down on this...this is EVE, it's a part of it.   What I don't understand is just how someone could be so naive when it is said repeatedly over an over again in local chat in Jita and all the other main trade hubs - don't fall for scams!  Anyone that actually thinks that someone is just going to double your ISK - because they say they will...don't play EVE - you're the reason things like this happen - you're gullible and lack good judgment.   The guy that fell for this scam I do not feel sorry for one bit.   It's like people that believe in God and hand over cash to churches - it's a scam.   If the God of a church is so powerful, what does a church or religion have need of money for - why doesn't your God just provide for it's needs - he is suppose to be all mighty and powerful - or are you not capable of good judgement to understand this - hmmmm?  

Oh and don't try to tell me I'm just as bad as the scammers that did this because I don't feel sorry for this guy...that guy at one point actually knew he had been scammed and yet "he allowed" them to continue on.   All he had to do was stop.   So more than once this person showed bad judgement.   In fact he did it 4 times.   So no, I don't feel bad for this person.   And his language toward the end of the sound clip...that is inexcusable. 

I've been reading around and it looks like most people aren't coming down on the scam but the hour and a half of psychological mindfuck that happened after he was scammed.

I'd like you to consider that it's really easy to have good judgement when you are not emotionally involved with something.  I'll bet that there's not a person reading this that hasn't allowed their emotions to cloud their good judgement.

What they did was wrong and blaming the victim doesn't make their wrong doing any more right.

  uplink4242

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/15/08
Posts: 239

3/27/14 5:13:13 AM#35

Ahem, "this is Eve" is not an excuse, Eve is just like any other game in the sense that griefing other people is a punishable offense. The only difference is that scamming and the use of other game mechanics don't constitute griefing in Eve, and that recording had absolutely nothing to do with game mechanics. It seems like a lot of people like to justify all the bullshit for messing with others with buzzwords like "emergent gameplay" and "content creation". There have even been other scams that were reimbursed by CCP before, I wonder why everyone always forgets that? Your "HTFU" mentality holds as much water as CCP decides to think it does.

It's still a gray line, and it will be interesting to see CCP's stance over all the bad press this is generating lately. 

  Wraithone

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3583

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

3/27/14 5:14:51 AM#36

Well, its sad when some one gets scammed, but anyone playing the game should remember the three most important rules.

Rule One. Trust No One.  Seriously. There are lots of good people in EVE, but there are also lots of Goonies and other such.

Rule Two. NEVER un dock anything you can't afford to replace.

Rule Three. Keep your clone up to date, and use jump clones in dangerous situations.

  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 5543

3/27/14 5:37:16 AM#37
Originally posted by Hazelle
Originally posted by Teala

Why is everyone coming down on this...this is EVE, it's a part of it.   What I don't understand is just how someone could be so naive when it is said repeatedly over an over again in local chat in Jita and all the other main trade hubs - don't fall for scams!  Anyone that actually thinks that someone is just going to double your ISK - because they say they will...don't play EVE - you're the reason things like this happen - you're gullible and lack good judgment.   The guy that fell for this scam I do not feel sorry for one bit.   It's like people that believe in God and hand over cash to churches - it's a scam.   If the God of a church is so powerful, what does a church or religion have need of money for - why doesn't your God just provide for it's needs - he is suppose to be all mighty and powerful - or are you not capable of good judgement to understand this - hmmmm?  

Oh and don't try to tell me I'm just as bad as the scammers that did this because I don't feel sorry for this guy...that guy at one point actually knew he had been scammed and yet "he allowed" them to continue on.   All he had to do was stop.   So more than once this person showed bad judgement.   In fact he did it 4 times.   So no, I don't feel bad for this person.   And his language toward the end of the sound clip...that is inexcusable. 

I've been reading around and it looks like most people aren't coming down on the scam but the hour and a half of psychological mindfuck that happened after he was scammed.

I'd like you to consider that it's really easy to have good judgement when you are not emotionally involved with something.  I'll bet that there's not a person reading this that hasn't allowed their emotions to cloud their good judgement.

What they did was wrong and blaming the victim doesn't make their wrong doing any more right.

I disagree, the victim was for want of a better word, extremely foolish, and i have absolutely no sympathy for them, so okay, its not something i would do myself, as i don't feel the need to 'scam' people, but i don't see where the Scammer actually broke any rules, but here's the thing, the victim was in effect the victim of his own greed, because the easiest people to scam are the dishonest ones, scammers exploit peoples greed, although the sheer gullibility exhibited by the victim is cringeworthy in the extreme. Hopefully the 'victim' learned an important lesson about greed, far better to learn it in a game than IRL where the consequences are real, and not virtual.

  User Deleted
3/27/14 5:39:36 AM#38
Originally posted by Hazelle
Originally posted by Teala

Why is everyone coming down on this...this is EVE, it's a part of it.   What I don't understand is just how someone could be so naive when it is said repeatedly over an over again in local chat in Jita and all the other main trade hubs - don't fall for scams!  Anyone that actually thinks that someone is just going to double your ISK - because they say they will...don't play EVE - you're the reason things like this happen - you're gullible and lack good judgment.   The guy that fell for this scam I do not feel sorry for one bit.   It's like people that believe in God and hand over cash to churches - it's a scam.   If the God of a church is so powerful, what does a church or religion have need of money for - why doesn't your God just provide for it's needs - he is suppose to be all mighty and powerful - or are you not capable of good judgement to understand this - hmmmm?  

Oh and don't try to tell me I'm just as bad as the scammers that did this because I don't feel sorry for this guy...that guy at one point actually knew he had been scammed and yet "he allowed" them to continue on.   All he had to do was stop.   So more than once this person showed bad judgement.   In fact he did it 4 times.   So no, I don't feel bad for this person.   And his language toward the end of the sound clip...that is inexcusable. 

I've been reading around and it looks like most people aren't coming down on the scam but the hour and a half of psychological mindfuck that happened after he was scammed.

I'd like you to consider that it's really easy to have good judgement when you are not emotionally involved with something.  I'll bet that there's not a person reading this that hasn't allowed their emotions to cloud their good judgement.

What they did was wrong and blaming the victim doesn't make their wrong doing any more right.

And this has about as much a link to EVE as anything else because the torture happened out of game.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19509

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

3/27/14 5:40:26 AM#39
Just to again point out, this activity is not reflective of the EVE community as a whole, nor is this behavior unique to EVE.

One of the best griefing guilds of all time, the Dark Wolves have been making people miserable and screwing with folks since 1996.

www.darkwolvesgaming.com

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
"People can do with their money what they want. But... that doesn't make it smart" - COORS
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Volenibblets

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/08/12
Posts: 203

3/27/14 6:09:58 AM#40

Eve replicates the Stanford Prison Experiment in an MMORPG format. They've taken a virtual world with no real consequences and they've provided a blank slate and all the conditions (and incentives) necessary for people to act like sadists, sociopaths or just plain dicks if they choose...and guess what happens?

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