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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Imagination has left the building

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57 posts found
  cheyane

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/17/09
Posts: 2549

3/26/14 4:18:42 PM#21

God Narius not an insult mind you but the way you play depresses me and I am even more depressed thinking may be most people enjoy what you do seeing how the games are being dumbed down and narrative and quests and other aspects being cast off.

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  sunandshadow

Elite Member

Joined: 12/05/13
Posts: 727

3/26/14 4:27:10 PM#22
There is lots of imagination available, but very few people who want to put money behind it. :(
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20667

3/26/14 4:30:07 PM#23
Originally posted by cheyane

God Narius not an insult mind you but the way you play depresses me and I am even more depressed thinking may be most people enjoy what you do seeing how the games are being dumbed down and narrative and quests and other aspects being cast off.

Don't worry. I don't take things personally. Otherwise how can i have fun here?

Don't be depressed. It is not worth depressing over some random dude typed on the internet. Plus, if you can't beat them, join them. I find lots of SP games have good stories and gameplay, and very entertaining to me.

It is just entertainment ... may be you can just enjoy instead of complain. But of course, it is up to you. It is a free world.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20667

3/26/14 4:30:54 PM#24
Originally posted by sunandshadow
There is lots of imagination available, but very few people who want to put money behind it. :(

Imagination and ideas are a dime a dozen. Implementation, and making something happen is much harder.

 

  sunandshadow

Elite Member

Joined: 12/05/13
Posts: 727

3/26/14 4:53:22 PM#25
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by sunandshadow
There is lots of imagination available, but very few people who want to put money behind it. :(

Imagination and ideas are a dime a dozen. Implementation, and making something happen is much harder.

That's true.  Not that imagination is universal - I know a sad number of non-imaginative people - but there's more imagination than can be made into games even if every single game made were imaginative.  The supply of creativity exceeding the demand, it is literally a dime a dozen.

  Flyte27

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/13/05
Posts: 2255

3/26/14 6:16:37 PM#26
Originally posted by sunandshadow
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by sunandshadow
There is lots of imagination available, but very few people who want to put money behind it. :(

Imagination and ideas are a dime a dozen. Implementation, and making something happen is much harder.

That's true.  Not that imagination is universal - I know a sad number of non-imaginative people - but there's more imagination than can be made into games even if every single game made were imaginative.  The supply of creativity exceeding the demand, it is literally a dime a dozen.

I still contest that games are more fun when you don't know what's going on.  I remember playing my first RPG Dragon Warrior on the Nintendo Entertainment System.  I had no clue what I was doing or what the story was, but I completed the game and made up stories in my head.  There wasn't a lot of dialogue/script/lore, but it did allow you to run around the world in an overhead map wherever you wanted to.  There was also some dark dungeons where you couldn't see without a torch or a light spell.  Sadly this is an old game and it implemented tools that were much more RPG oriented then games today.  I also like to play Dark Souls and it doesn't bother me that there isn't a lot of dialogue, text, or scripts in the game.  It's mostly about finding what works against what or what you need to protect yourself properly and what you need to advance past certain areas.  I believe in a single player game can be fine like that then an MMORPG could as well.

  Fenrir767

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/27/04
Posts: 596

Take My Love, Take My Land, Take me to wear I cannot stand

3/26/14 6:26:00 PM#27
Originally posted by Flyte27
Originally posted by sunandshadow
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by sunandshadow
There is lots of imagination available, but very few people who want to put money behind it. :(

Imagination and ideas are a dime a dozen. Implementation, and making something happen is much harder.

That's true.  Not that imagination is universal - I know a sad number of non-imaginative people - but there's more imagination than can be made into games even if every single game made were imaginative.  The supply of creativity exceeding the demand, it is literally a dime a dozen.

I still contest that games are more fun when you don't know what's going on.  I remember playing my first RPG Dragon Warrior on the Nintendo Entertainment System.  I had no clue what I was doing or what the story was, but I completed the game and made up stories in my head.  There wasn't a lot of dialogue/script/lore, but it did allow you to run around the world in an overhead map wherever you wanted to.  There was also some dark dungeons where you couldn't see without a torch or a light spell.  Sadly this is an old game and it implemented tools that were much more RPG oriented then games today.  I also like to play Dark Souls and it doesn't bother me that there isn't a lot of dialogue, text, or scripts in the game.  It's mostly about finding what works against what or what you need to protect yourself properly and what you need to advance past certain areas.  I believe in a single player game can be fine like that then an MMORPG could as well.

Because a lot of people don't want to make up their own stories they are purchasing a game to consume entertainment if people want to create their own Entertainment and imagine things then they purchase Role Playing Systems like Dungeons and Dragons or GURPS.

There are also Video Games that allow you to be creative and make content such as Infamous 2's mission creator or RPG Maker. 

If you want to create entertainment there are games and systems designed for it or jobs that will allow you do it such as being a writer or Video Game creator. Most people prefer to be consumers so they want to "consume" the high quality entertainment given to them. I have played some fan made missions in Infamous 2 some of them are just god awful....

  Cephus404

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

3/26/14 6:29:30 PM#28
Originally posted by Wizardry

One sentence....

These are businesses not passion  felt game design,$$$ rules over everything else.

 

These have always been businesses.  You just remember a time when your style of play represented the majority of the marketplace and companies therefore catered to it because it was the best business decision they could make.  That's no longer the case, your style of play no longer represents the majority of the marketplace and developers are now catering to another form of gameplay that has more financial value.  Nothing has changed except you stopped being financially valuable to the developers.

Join reality.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  Flyte27

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/13/05
Posts: 2255

3/26/14 6:31:07 PM#29
Originally posted by Fenrir767
Originally posted by Flyte27
Originally posted by sunandshadow
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by sunandshadow
There is lots of imagination available, but very few people who want to put money behind it. :(

Imagination and ideas are a dime a dozen. Implementation, and making something happen is much harder.

That's true.  Not that imagination is universal - I know a sad number of non-imaginative people - but there's more imagination than can be made into games even if every single game made were imaginative.  The supply of creativity exceeding the demand, it is literally a dime a dozen.

I still contest that games are more fun when you don't know what's going on.  I remember playing my first RPG Dragon Warrior on the Nintendo Entertainment System.  I had no clue what I was doing or what the story was, but I completed the game and made up stories in my head.  There wasn't a lot of dialogue/script/lore, but it did allow you to run around the world in an overhead map wherever you wanted to.  There was also some dark dungeons where you couldn't see without a torch or a light spell.  Sadly this is an old game and it implemented tools that were much more RPG oriented then games today.  I also like to play Dark Souls and it doesn't bother me that there isn't a lot of dialogue, text, or scripts in the game.  It's mostly about finding what works against what or what you need to protect yourself properly and what you need to advance past certain areas.  I believe in a single player game can be fine like that then an MMORPG could as well.

Because a lot of people don't want to make up their own stories they are purchasing a game to consume entertainment if people want to create their own Entertainment and imagine things then they purchase Role Playing Systems like Dungeons and Dragons or GURPS.

There are also Video Games that allow you to be creative and make content such as Infamous 2's mission creator or RPG Maker. 

If you want to create entertainment there are games and systems designed for it or jobs that will allow you do it such as being a writer or Video Game creator. Most people prefer to be consumers so they want to "consume" the high quality entertainment given to them. I have played some fan made missions in Infamous 2 some of them are just god awful....

I'm not really talking about fan made missions.  I'm talking about jumping into a game and just playing it.  There is no need for any story or dialogue to me there.  The story just happens as you go along and ideas jump into your head about whats going on.  Usually said things that jump into your head about whats happening will be more interesting to you then what the developers made.  You don't have to sit there and make up a story per say.  Dark Souls is a good example as I said before.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20667

3/26/14 6:41:55 PM#30
Originally posted by Flyte27
 

I still contest that games are more fun when you don't know what's going on.  I remember playing my first RPG Dragon Warrior on the Nintendo Entertainment System.  I had no clue what I was doing or what the story was, but I completed the game and made up stories in my head.  There wasn't a lot of dialogue/script/lore, but it did allow you to run around the world in an overhead map wherever you wanted to.  There was also some dark dungeons where you couldn't see without a torch or a light spell.  Sadly this is an old game and it implemented tools that were much more RPG oriented then games today.  I also like to play Dark Souls and it doesn't bother me that there isn't a lot of dialogue, text, or scripts in the game.  It's mostly about finding what works against what or what you need to protect yourself properly and what you need to advance past certain areas.  I believe in a single player game can be fine like that then an MMORPG could as well.

More fun for YOU. And i have more fun with all the great scripting and stories in dishonored, tomb raider, and many other such games.

I believe we choose what is fun to us, and let the market decide what to make.

 

  Flyte27

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/13/05
Posts: 2255

3/26/14 6:56:21 PM#31
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Flyte27
 

I still contest that games are more fun when you don't know what's going on.  I remember playing my first RPG Dragon Warrior on the Nintendo Entertainment System.  I had no clue what I was doing or what the story was, but I completed the game and made up stories in my head.  There wasn't a lot of dialogue/script/lore, but it did allow you to run around the world in an overhead map wherever you wanted to.  There was also some dark dungeons where you couldn't see without a torch or a light spell.  Sadly this is an old game and it implemented tools that were much more RPG oriented then games today.  I also like to play Dark Souls and it doesn't bother me that there isn't a lot of dialogue, text, or scripts in the game.  It's mostly about finding what works against what or what you need to protect yourself properly and what you need to advance past certain areas.  I believe in a single player game can be fine like that then an MMORPG could as well.

More fun for YOU. And i have more fun with all the great scripting and stories in dishonored, tomb raider, and many other such games.

I believe we choose what is fun to us, and let the market decide what to make.

 

i would argue diablo 3 doesn't have that much story.  It mostly about grinding mobs.  You like the game a lot though.  i find most stories in games these days are generic and made to appeal to everyone.  They end  being pretty hollow in the process.  to me diablo 2 had a much better story and characters, but there is nothing like that today.  There is to much concern someone might be offended by something and sue.  either way id rather have little story and more actual things going on in the game.

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15971

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

3/26/14 7:07:38 PM#32
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by Wizardry

One sentence....

These are businesses not passion  felt game design,$$$ rules over everything else.

 

These have always been businesses.  You just remember a time when your style of play represented the majority of the marketplace and companies therefore catered to it because it was the best business decision they could make.  That's no longer the case, your style of play no longer represents the majority of the marketplace and developers are now catering to another form of gameplay that has more financial value.  Nothing has changed except you stopped being financially valuable to the developers.

Join reality.

Pretty much this...

Innovation comes in strides in the big business world because they can afford to operate in such a way. There are always going to be more risk takers in the small business world because of what they compete with in the big business world. It's really that simple, those risk takers have no other course of being noticed and taken seriously. There's no reason to settle for the indie version of WOW as an example... most won't even settle for the lesser AAA versions.

 

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20667

3/26/14 7:12:22 PM#33
Originally posted by Flyte27
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Flyte27
 

I still contest that games are more fun when you don't know what's going on.  I remember playing my first RPG Dragon Warrior on the Nintendo Entertainment System.  I had no clue what I was doing or what the story was, but I completed the game and made up stories in my head.  There wasn't a lot of dialogue/script/lore, but it did allow you to run around the world in an overhead map wherever you wanted to.  There was also some dark dungeons where you couldn't see without a torch or a light spell.  Sadly this is an old game and it implemented tools that were much more RPG oriented then games today.  I also like to play Dark Souls and it doesn't bother me that there isn't a lot of dialogue, text, or scripts in the game.  It's mostly about finding what works against what or what you need to protect yourself properly and what you need to advance past certain areas.  I believe in a single player game can be fine like that then an MMORPG could as well.

More fun for YOU. And i have more fun with all the great scripting and stories in dishonored, tomb raider, and many other such games.

I believe we choose what is fun to us, and let the market decide what to make.

 

i would argue diablo 3 doesn't have that much story.  It mostly about grinding mobs.  You like the game a lot though.  i find most stories in games these days are generic and made to appeal to everyone.  They end  being pretty hollow in the process.  to me diablo 2 had a much better story and characters, but there is nothing like that today.  There is to much concern someone might be offended by something and sue.  either way id rather have little story and more actual things going on in the game.

hmm .. what do D3 have to do with this conversation? You don't think i only find ONE game to be fun, did you?

I am talking about Dishonored, Tomb Raider, Bioshocks and games like that. I didn't even mentioned D3. I also like puzzle games like The Room 2 ... don't tell me you think that needs a story too.

 

  Flyte27

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/13/05
Posts: 2255

3/26/14 7:14:55 PM#34
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by Wizardry

One sentence....

These are businesses not passion  felt game design,$$$ rules over everything else.

 

These have always been businesses.  You just remember a time when your style of play represented the majority of the marketplace and companies therefore catered to it because it was the best business decision they could make.  That's no longer the case, your style of play no longer represents the majority of the marketplace and developers are now catering to another form of gameplay that has more financial value.  Nothing has changed except you stopped being financially valuable to the developers.

Join reality.

Pretty much this...

Innovation comes in strides in the big business world because they can afford to operate in such a way. There are always going to be more risk takers in the small business world because of what they compete with in the big business world. It's really that simple, those risk takers have no other course of being noticed and taken seriously. There's no reason to settle for the indie version of WOW as an example... most won't even settle for the lesser AAA versions.

 

I don't believe marketing was anything like it is today even 15 years ago.  Today everything is about marketing and selling a product.  Many of the games we used to play were made by small companies that had a lot less restrictions on them than they do today for a variety of different reasons.  I'll agree with your assessment that people won't settle for indies.  The difference is indies were the main developers when games first came out.  Now there are a lot more indie developers and a lot more AAA developers as well.  It's hard to give an indie a chance when there are so many things to spend money on and the games are sporting 2D graphics that look like they are from the early 1990s in some cases.  Even 3D graphics can be hard to take.  EQ was the first 3D game I liked graphically.  I thought Neverwinter Nights had horrible graphics and so did many of the first 3D games.  I don't even mind 2D games as long as they are not pixel art.

  Flyte27

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/13/05
Posts: 2255

3/26/14 7:16:55 PM#35
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Flyte27
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Flyte27
 

I still contest that games are more fun when you don't know what's going on.  I remember playing my first RPG Dragon Warrior on the Nintendo Entertainment System.  I had no clue what I was doing or what the story was, but I completed the game and made up stories in my head.  There wasn't a lot of dialogue/script/lore, but it did allow you to run around the world in an overhead map wherever you wanted to.  There was also some dark dungeons where you couldn't see without a torch or a light spell.  Sadly this is an old game and it implemented tools that were much more RPG oriented then games today.  I also like to play Dark Souls and it doesn't bother me that there isn't a lot of dialogue, text, or scripts in the game.  It's mostly about finding what works against what or what you need to protect yourself properly and what you need to advance past certain areas.  I believe in a single player game can be fine like that then an MMORPG could as well.

More fun for YOU. And i have more fun with all the great scripting and stories in dishonored, tomb raider, and many other such games.

I believe we choose what is fun to us, and let the market decide what to make.

 

i would argue diablo 3 doesn't have that much story.  It mostly about grinding mobs.  You like the game a lot though.  i find most stories in games these days are generic and made to appeal to everyone.  They end  being pretty hollow in the process.  to me diablo 2 had a much better story and characters, but there is nothing like that today.  There is to much concern someone might be offended by something and sue.  either way id rather have little story and more actual things going on in the game.

hmm .. what do D3 have to do with this conversation? You don't think i only find ONE game to be fun, did you?

I am talking about Dishonored, Tomb Raider, Bioshocks and games like that. I didn't even mentioned D3. I also like puzzle games like The Room 2 ... don't tell me you think that needs a story too.

 

I'm just pointing out you like a game with little story and lots of grinding.  You said you don't like games of this variety.  You said you need to have a great scripted story to play games.  Obviously that is not the case.  You can be happy with a sandbox type environment.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 6128

3/26/14 7:18:52 PM#36
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Amusing someone says that when imagination has just been given back to the players with games like EQN:Landmark...

I agree with you.

But there is more to it for me. I think imagination is just as much, or more, on the player than it is on game. I use my imagination and have fun in lots of games people complain about being rote, soulless, or cookie-cutter. I have a great time in Rift, Neverwinter, EQ2, GW2, and several other lesser known games. I have characters, I give them personas and then I go do things.

Games like Landmark and Planet Explorers are awesome because they offer a lot of concrete, hands-on, creativity. I don't need those to use my imagination though. I came from the world of PnP where all the creative stuff was just written down on paper or said outloud from things we thought. I can do that in most of my games.

Maybe I'm the odd one out, but when people complain about boredom or lack of imagination I mostly think it's their fault. There are so many game options out there now that I think if someone can't find something that sparks their imagination they need to ask themselves why and stop pointing fingers.

Curse you AquaScum!

  sunandshadow

Elite Member

Joined: 12/05/13
Posts: 727

3/26/14 7:22:22 PM#37


Originally posted by Flyte27

Originally posted by Fenrir767 Because a lot of people don't want to make up their own stories they are purchasing a game to consume entertainment if people want to create their own Entertainment and imagine things then they purchase Role Playing Systems like Dungeons and Dragons or GURPS. There are also Video Games that allow you to be creative and make content such as Infamous 2's mission creator or RPG Maker.  If you want to create entertainment there are games and systems designed for it or jobs that will allow you do it such as being a writer or Video Game creator. Most people prefer to be consumers so they want to "consume" the high quality entertainment given to them. I have played some fan made missions in Infamous 2 some of them are just god awful....
I'm talking about jumping into a game and just playing it.  There is no need for any story or dialogue to me there.  The story just happens as you go along and ideas jump into your head about whats going on.

That's a very clear illustration of the fact that people don't agree on what kind of games they want to play, or what kind of innovation they want to see in games. For myself, I WANT the story, with dialogue and characters. I'm not very interested in the kind of story that just happens as I go along. Game worlds really aren't that interactive - as soon as I get an idea of a story I'd like to act out within a world, I run into a wall that the game world doesn't react properly to what I'm trying to do. The only way I don't have my suspension of disbelief shattered is if I let the game decide what the story's going to be, and hopefully supply the interactivity needed to make that story work. 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20667

3/26/14 7:22:54 PM#38
Originally posted by Flyte27

 

I'm just pointing out you like a game with little story and lots of grinding.  You said you don't like games of this variety.  You said you need to have a great scripted story to play games.  Obviously that is not the case.  You can be happy with a sandbox type environment.

Uh .. you have no logic in what you say. If you classify D3 as a sandbox MMO ... then i like THIS particular sandbox MMO. Is that what you are saying?

Because if a sandbox has D3 combat, a lobby to match with others, the whole game is instanced so i have no need to see anyone if i don't want to, have adventure modes and random solo instance dungeons, then I am all for a sandbox. Tell me, is a sandbox defined as such?

I thought this kind of games is called ARPG, but apparently you think they are sandboxes ... no problem i can use your definition. Tell me where i can find another D3-like sandbox.

  Flyte27

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/13/05
Posts: 2255

3/26/14 7:27:15 PM#39
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Flyte27

 

I'm just pointing out you like a game with little story and lots of grinding.  You said you don't like games of this variety.  You said you need to have a great scripted story to play games.  Obviously that is not the case.  You can be happy with a sandbox type environment.

Uh .. you have no logic in what you say. If you classify D3 as a sandbox MMO ... then i like THIS particular sandbox MMO. Is that what you are saying?

Because if a sandbox has D3 combat, a lobby to match with others, the whole game is instanced so i have no need to see anyone if i don't want to, have adventure modes and random solo instance dungeons, then I am all for a sandbox. Tell me, is a sandbox defined as such?

I thought this kind of games is called ARPG, but apparently you think they are sandboxes ... no problem i can use your definition. Tell me where i can find another D3-like sandbox.


It's not a sandbox, but it is a classic style dungeon grinder.  EQ was a lot like this, but less linear and with a lot more that could be done.  Being that you don't really need story and don't mind grinding you already have two of the big things that it took to play old MMOs.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20667

3/26/14 7:32:03 PM#40
Originally posted by Flyte27
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Flyte27

 

I'm just pointing out you like a game with little story and lots of grinding.  You said you don't like games of this variety.  You said you need to have a great scripted story to play games.  Obviously that is not the case.  You can be happy with a sandbox type environment.

Uh .. you have no logic in what you say. If you classify D3 as a sandbox MMO ... then i like THIS particular sandbox MMO. Is that what you are saying?

Because if a sandbox has D3 combat, a lobby to match with others, the whole game is instanced so i have no need to see anyone if i don't want to, have adventure modes and random solo instance dungeons, then I am all for a sandbox. Tell me, is a sandbox defined as such?

I thought this kind of games is called ARPG, but apparently you think they are sandboxes ... no problem i can use your definition. Tell me where i can find another D3-like sandbox.


It's not a sandbox, but it is a classic style dungeon grinder.  EQ was a lot like this, but less linear and with a lot more that could be done.  Being that you don't really need story and don't mind grinding you already have two of the big things that it took to play old MMOs.

EQ is like D3 .... hahahahaha ....

You cannot grind EQ alone in an instance.

There is no lobby to match up and grind with someone else.

EQ has no random dungeons.

EQ has no random loot.

EQ has no roll-your-own-loot to prevent loot drama.

And EQ has horrible combat compared to Diablo 3.

But ... if you make a D3 clone with EQ skin, i will play it.

 

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