Trending Games | Pirate101 | ArcheAge | Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn | Wasteland 2

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,860,087 Users Online:0
Games:742  Posts:6,245,450
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Angry Birds Epic Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Ascend: Hand of Kul Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Boot Hill Heroes Borderlands 2 Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel Bound by Flame Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Bravada Bravely Default Bravely Second Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Cast & Conquer Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Child of Light Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Dead Island Dead Island 2 Dead Island: Riptide Deco Online Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Divinity: Original Sin Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Age: Inquisition Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Drakengard 3 Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dungeon of the Endless Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Fearless Fantasy Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy Type-0 HD Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Heart Forth Alicia Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes & Legends: Conquerors of Kolhar Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online Kyn L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Phoenix Edition LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Lichdom: Battlemage Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lords of the Fallen Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Moonrise Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Persona V Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Project Blackout Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Project Zomboid Puzzle Pirates Quest for Infamy Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Risen 3: Titan Lords Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sacred 3 Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Chance Heroes Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow Realms Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Styx: Master of Shadows Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Banner Saga The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Hammers End The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing 2 The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Total Domination Transformers Universe Transistor Transverse Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune Wasteland 2 WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenoblade Chronicles: X Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

Elder Scrolls Online

Elder Scrolls Online 

General Discussion  » Quests ruin the immersion of an MMORPG

5 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 » Search
91 posts found
  Erda

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/26/14
Posts: 97

3/24/14 10:28:12 AM#61

Personally I don't mind quests if they are engaging and not fetch this or that.  TSW had a great quest system and I was absolutely immersed in the game, especially the main storyline.  Unfortunately once the quests were done, I was pretty much done with the game.  Little staying power although I will be back to see any new issues.   Other quest based games have been painful to play and this is one reason why I won't be picking up WildStar at release.  I found them painful.

I haven't played enough ESO to make a judgment yet.  The quests I did, I found enjoyable.  I do believe though that folks should have alternative ways to progress.  If you want to mob grind, that should be a viable option.  Dungeon running should also grant a nice chunk of experience.  I will probably do all the quests in ESO--the same that I do in any game.  For me, it adds to my immersion in the world.  For others though, there should be options to get off the quest track.

OP--I get what you are saying about Asheron's Call.  That was our first MMO and probably my best gaming experience ever.  I recall doing very few quests aside from our weapon quests.  We managed to find our own fun for many years in the that game.   Since then, I've enjoyed the various MMOs I've played but nothing matches the freedom I felt in Asheron's Call 1. 

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4819

3/24/14 10:30:34 AM#62
Originally posted by prowess
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by prowess
Originally posted by Wizardry

FACT is questing on rails has absolutely nothing to do with role playing.

Then the design that has been copied for years except by FFXI ,giving out leveling Xp for doing these quests is just  ridiculous.

quest+xp=anti role playing.

You can call these games questing games but they are not rpg's.Also if everyone is following the exact same path,it is not a mmo design because YOUR role playing and YOUR game should never be identical to everyone else's.

 

 

quality analytics

Or one persons narrow view of the term roll playing.

How do you roll play?  is that with a ball or dice?

 

There is a big difference between people who act out their character and people who take on the roll of that character in the story. One often has an elaborate back store and a whole persona for the role they're playinh. The other simply logs in and guides the character through the adventure. Both "role play" but only one is doing any type of "acting". Role playing game isn't defined by only one type of role play but is often argued that there is only one way...the right way!!!! To do it. So to one type of rp'er quests are part of the adventure. To the other trying to make it as much like LARP as possible I guess any npc could be considered immersion breaking.

There's a saying about evolution and why we have two eyes and two ears but only one mouth. Clearly it didn't see the internet coming or it never would have given us ten fingers to type with.

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4819

3/24/14 10:32:09 AM#63
Wow posting from a phone turns everything into a wall of text...

There's a saying about evolution and why we have two eyes and two ears but only one mouth. Clearly it didn't see the internet coming or it never would have given us ten fingers to type with.

  gestalt11

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/17/06
Posts: 6169

3/24/14 10:54:05 AM#64

I am basically going into this with eyes wide open and planning on basically exploring and running around and only doing quests as they come a long as a supplement.  The flipside is that I am sure I will be doing some quests, for various reasons, for which I am over leveled.  Either because they are special or just because they sound cool.  I will most likely wind up skipping a lot of xp favourable quests.

 

Basically I am not going to let quests drive this game, but at the same time I know I will be doing many of them.  That may or may not work out, but I will know whether it does before I pay a sub.

 

It is a catch 22 if you jam all your advancement into quests you essentially ruin the feel of quests themselves.  See quests are about telling a story, NOT someone reading you a story.  This means the pacing of the story, your story, is fundamentally important.  MMORPGs that run 20 stories simultaneously and incentivize you to run them as fast as possible are absolutely sabotaging their own ability to allow the story to unfold in a good manner.

 

Yet people want story.  You need to step away from the false construct and do your own thing.  Its not about being on rails.  The whole problem is pacing/perspective and nothing else.  

 

This whole system that was basically started by blizzard had its points but its fundamentally flawed and everyone basically knows it.  Its taken a while for it to sink in, but its just plain tiresome and deep down we all know it.

 

There is actually very little wrong with the quests themselves.  But if you ruin the pacing of a book and you ruin the entire book.  You could have best sections of prose ever written but ruin the pacing and the story is null and void.

 

This is what the quest advancement system does to the quests themselves.  It is like a series of individually well written paragraphs in a novel but the novel itself still sucks.

 

The system the quests are a part, that system itself, simply makes you tired of them even if they are individiually good.  But the only reason you get tired of them is because they jammed down your throat over and over and over again 30 at a time.

 

The solution is quite simple take a step back, take deep breath and breath it out and do the quests only when feel like it.  I am pretty sure this will cause you to level probably something like 50% slower.   But these games, they just are made basically exactly contrary to human nature in this regard.  You simply cannot allow yourself to follow the pattern of the game, unless your sole motivation is being an achiever, then it doesn't matter.  

 

These jam as many quests as possible into a character log at all possible times designed games are inherently contradictory.  It like reading the Wheel of Time books before Sanderson finished it up.  Too many disparate storyline, too many characters.  First 4-5 book were really tight but I have had a VERY large number of people say they just lost thread on the whole because the story just got scattered to the winds for them.

 

Imagine your character and what he/she is currently doing as far as quests as a novel.  Now imagine that each quests is a subplot in that novel.

 

Which do you think is a better story the novel with 30 sub plots or the one with 4 subplots?  Now consider an evolution of that question.  If you had 30 COMPLETELY NEW subplots every chapter how connected would you feel to the novel at all?  Answer: almost none at all.

 

Thus these quest systems should in fact be designed a long the lines of actually good writing rather than designed a long the lines of a maximal about of carrots doled out.  Because while do like carrots (if they are uncooked) and I am in fact able to the eat the same over and over for much longer than most people I still get permanently sick of something I eat too much of.

 

How many people do you know can't eat something anymore because they ate too much of it as a college student (often something cheap like box mac and cheese or ramen noodles)?  Well this is  the MMORPG quests system variation created by blizzard and mimiced by everyone else.

 

It is a system designed to tell stories, whose mechanics completely undermine the basics of storytelling and is destined to make everyone, eventually overtime get so sick of the "taste" that eating it one more time is just something that, while not bad tasting, is just not something they can do anymore.  

 

In reality the small carrots should not come from the quests.  There should not be that many quests in your log, those quests should have far more meat and continue for long periods.  There should be all sorts of little discoverable side objectives, but should be fundamentally different than quests, in fact the side things should explain very little to you.  You should never know whether a cave is empty or full of treasure.  But in an MMO, you find a cave, there is something in it because we know humans made it.   Only the quests should work that way and only because of the story behind it having informed us of things.

  udon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/23/07
Posts: 1614

3/24/14 11:03:38 AM#65
Originally posted by prowess

Addendum: too many games, these days, put the story focus on the world...  So you're playing a part in a play..  I wish we had a current-generation game that just allowed players to carve out their own destinies..  Asheron's Call had the best storyline ever: you've been sucked into this crazy and dangerous world.  That's it.  Now go figure it out.  When did that formula expire?

It expired when games started to consider themselves an alternative to traditional entertainment like TV and Movies instead of table games.  Which also not so oddly enough was when MMO's subscriptions started to be measured in the millions instead of tens of thousands.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10635

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

3/24/14 11:25:35 AM#66
Originally posted by KalSirian2

You cite Alan Wake, this is a single player game, no one here is saying that quests aren't an important part of single player games. Only that they don't fit well in a multiplayer environment, in the way the are done nowadays.

And no one is saying that you absolutely can't have fun doing quests in current MMORPGs, only that it could be done differently, and it might work better.

 

See, now we're getting into an opinion that someone is trying to generalize as being a generally accepted truth or a fact.  Except it's not.  Your experience is not the same experience that everyone else has.  There are over seven million people playing WoW, with quests and it seems to be working just fine.  If it was some sort of a fact or even a generally accepted truth that quests don't work in a multiplayer environment, then they wouldn't work so well in WoW.

 

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  KalSirian2

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/27/12
Posts: 31

3/24/14 4:27:36 PM#67
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by KalSirian2

You cite Alan Wake, this is a single player game, no one here is saying that quests aren't an important part of single player games. Only that they don't fit well in a multiplayer environment, in the way the are done nowadays.

And no one is saying that you absolutely can't have fun doing quests in current MMORPGs, only that it could be done differently, and it might work better.

 

See, now we're getting into an opinion that someone is trying to generalize as being a generally accepted truth or a fact.  Except it's not.  Your experience is not the same experience that everyone else has.  There are over seven million people playing WoW, with quests and it seems to be working just fine.  If it was some sort of a fact or even a generally accepted truth that quests don't work in a multiplayer environment, then they wouldn't work so well in WoW.

 

Quests are not the source of WoW's success. Every single WoW player I talked to told me the same thing : they kept playing to be with their buddies. Now THIS is the interesting part : make a world that you can enjoy with others, and you will have success.

What I'm saying on the other hand is that mmo questing doesn't favor player/player interaction. Obviously it won't completely destroy it, but it seems worth a try to do things differently and see how it goes. Just saying "X and Y were part of Z game and Z sold" doesn't mean that X and Y were the reason of the Z's success.

Since we're talking about TESO, do you really think that questing was a big part of the Elder Scrolls games ? To me, it wasn't. Sure you got quests, but they were just incentives to go explore dungeons. Most of the reward was from the dungeon itself. And free roaming, was always for me the biggest time sink in both Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim. Questing was always completely optional.

  Lord.Bachus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/14/07
Posts: 8599

I believe in life before death... So dont forget to enjoy it while you still can.

3/24/14 4:46:04 PM#68
Originally posted by KalSirian2
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by KalSirian2

You cite Alan Wake, this is a single player game, no one here is saying that quests aren't an important part of single player games. Only that they don't fit well in a multiplayer environment, in the way the are done nowadays.

And no one is saying that you absolutely can't have fun doing quests in current MMORPGs, only that it could be done differently, and it might work better.

 

See, now we're getting into an opinion that someone is trying to generalize as being a generally accepted truth or a fact.  Except it's not.  Your experience is not the same experience that everyone else has.  There are over seven million people playing WoW, with quests and it seems to be working just fine.  If it was some sort of a fact or even a generally accepted truth that quests don't work in a multiplayer environment, then they wouldn't work so well in WoW.

 

Quests are not the source of WoW's success. Every single WoW player I talked to told me the same thing : they kept playing to be with their buddies. Now THIS is the interesting part : make a world that you can enjoy with others, and you will have success.

What I'm saying on the other hand is that mmo questing doesn't favor player/player interaction. Obviously it won't completely destroy it, but it seems worth a try to do things differently and see how it goes. Just saying "X and Y were part of Z game and Z sold" doesn't mean that X and Y were the reason of the Z's success.

Since we're talking about TESO, do you really think that questing was a big part of the Elder Scrolls games ? To me, it wasn't. Sure you got quests, but they were just incentives to go explore dungeons. Most of the reward was from the dungeon itself. And free roaming, was always for me the biggest time sink in both Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim. Questing was always completely optional.

The OP obviously never understood that a large majorrity of players likes to be netertained, and quests are the ultimate entertainment.....

 

sure, it would have been much more awesome, if those questst would have had true options to choose from which could have led to a fraction system in an open world, but that was not the developers choice....

 

but then who cares, in 134 hours i will immerse me intoo the stories and quests of dagerfall... And i am looking forward to my travels and the stories on them

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  Talemire

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/01/06
Posts: 753

Jesus is Lord.

3/24/14 5:09:00 PM#69
Despite ESO's quest structure, it's fun as heck. Besides, Zenimax has left plenty of room for further development and improvements. Wouldn't be surprised if the game opened up a lot of over the course of time.

------------------------------
MMORPGs are great to look forward to after a hard day of work, but heaven is the ultimate reward for those who live Christ-like.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10635

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

3/24/14 5:45:31 PM#70
Originally posted by KalSirian2
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by KalSirian2

You cite Alan Wake, this is a single player game, no one here is saying that quests aren't an important part of single player games. Only that they don't fit well in a multiplayer environment, in the way the are done nowadays.

And no one is saying that you absolutely can't have fun doing quests in current MMORPGs, only that it could be done differently, and it might work better.

 

See, now we're getting into an opinion that someone is trying to generalize as being a generally accepted truth or a fact.  Except it's not.  Your experience is not the same experience that everyone else has.  There are over seven million people playing WoW, with quests and it seems to be working just fine.  If it was some sort of a fact or even a generally accepted truth that quests don't work in a multiplayer environment, then they wouldn't work so well in WoW.

 

Quests are not the source of WoW's success. Every single WoW player I talked to told me the same thing : they kept playing to be with their buddies. Now THIS is the interesting part : make a world that you can enjoy with others, and you will have success.

What I'm saying on the other hand is that mmo questing doesn't favor player/player interaction. Obviously it won't completely destroy it, but it seems worth a try to do things differently and see how it goes. Just saying "X and Y were part of Z game and Z sold" doesn't mean that X and Y were the reason of the Z's success.

Since we're talking about TESO, do you really think that questing was a big part of the Elder Scrolls games ? To me, it wasn't. Sure you got quests, but they were just incentives to go explore dungeons. Most of the reward was from the dungeon itself. And free roaming, was always for me the biggest time sink in both Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim. Questing was always completely optional.

 

Having played WoW for years, I can tell you that the majority of the players are playing through the quests.  They have the option of doing nothing but dungeons, nothing but PvP or just grinding mobs, but they are playing through the quests.  That doesn't mean that quests are the reason WoW is so successful, but it does mean that quests work just fine in a multiplayer environment.

 

Again though, your experience as an individual is not something that can be generalized to anyone but you.  I know two people who played something like 200+ hours in Skyrim, and among other things they really liked, they really like the quests.  So I have double the number of people than you've mentioned saying that the quests were a primary draw in Skyrim.  That doesn't mean they were the primary draw though.  Two people is pretty meaningless compared to the ten million people who bought the game.  More information is needed to say whether or not questing is a good fit for an ES MMORPG.  Probably the kind of information available to the ESO developers and designers.

 

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  aesperus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4758

3/24/14 6:00:35 PM#71
Originally posted by prowess

Most quests just kill the game for me...  Especially when the questing is mandatory (as is the case with ESO).  Like I'm too stupid to realize that the 4 guys standing next to me talking to the same NPC are doing the exact same quest that is my "destiny?"

Just give me tools and get out of my way, I'll make my own quests.  Asheron's Call was fantastic in the early days..  There weren't "quests" but we fuckin quested, man.

If there wasn't a mandatory linear story arc questline, I would be thrilled about this game..  I just can't force myself to spend hours and hours doing a questgrind..  I could, however, spend that time grinding mobs, gathering, crafting, exploring, getting into open-world PvP, getting lost, figuring things out...  I've had quite enough "go there and do this then run all the way back to me and left-click 42 times" to last me a lifetime.

Addendum: too many games, these days, put the story focus on the world...  So you're playing a part in a play..  I wish we had a current-generation game that just allowed players to carve out their own destinies..  Asheron's Call had the best storyline ever: you've been sucked into this crazy and dangerous world.  That's it.  Now go figure it out.  When did that formula expire?

Have u never played an Elder Scrolls game!? They are all quest based. All of them. As you point out, most games nowadays are.

Asheron's Call was a good game. You can still play it today if you like. This game is not AC, nor should anyone think it would be. AC, inspite being a great game; is a niche game. Comparatively few gamers would support such a game these days. Sandboxes are becoming more popular, but most people NEED direction. You give them a blank slate and say "now you figure it out" and what happens? They compain that either A) There is nothing to do (whether or not that is actually true) or B) They can't understand it / figure it out on their own.

This is why many newer sandboxes still hold on to some linear elements. Many still have a clear progression of some-kind to set players on the right track. Starbound, for example, does this with a tutorial questing system that guides players through what they can build on their way to unlocking harder planets. Eve also has something similar. While it is awesome to see a game that leaves the bulk of its content up to the player to figure out, there's a reason those games are very rare. Most gamers want to be handheld to some extent.

It sucks, but that's the reality of it. Between the internet and nearly 2 generations of games holding our hands, people have grown used to having something (or someone) else tell them how to play a game, or what to do. Now it's expected.

  prowess

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/04/07
Posts: 170

 
OP  3/24/14 6:08:50 PM#72
Originally posted by KalSirian2

OP, I agree 100% with you, in fact I have made the exact same constatation a couple months ago.

If you think about it, MMOs have been trying to apply a single player RPG formula to a MULTI player game for a decade.

99% of people don't even read quest dialog, they just go wherever the arrow points on the map, click or kill whatever needs to be clicked or killed, and go back to the NPC to "complete" the quest.

Or even better they do it in batch : get all the quests in the hub, run around the area poking at whatever shows as quest material on the minimap, and then talk to all the NPCs who gave the quests (often several quests per NPC), before doing the next batch if this has unlocked new quests, or heading to the next town (often conveniently pointed to by the one of the last quests in the current hub).

Talk about "Role play". And yea, we're not stupid, we know that the people around us are doing the same things, removing all meaning to our actions and leaving only the reward.

Obviously you can't hand craft tailored quests for every player.

So that leaves one option : remove questing almost completely. The only type of quest that make sense in a sane mmorpg is one requiring a large amount of players to accomplish a difficult task, and the game world remaining changed once the quest is complete.

And since you just removed a big chunk of work by removing questing, you can now put more work in your game mechanics, such as combat, crafting, world and player interactions and such. Don't give the player a Hero badge right out of character creation. Instead, put him in an unforgiving, dangerous world, and let him prove his worth. The stories people remember aren't the ones written in quest dialog. They are the ones they live.

Much more can be said about this but I'll leave it at that for now...

Good insights...  I thought Warhammer Online did their Public Quest thing really well..  Although you knew it was a recycling situation, you still felt connected to it and it had a semblence of logic to the quests' existence.

Rift took this formula to the next level but completely failed in a lot of other ways


I chose the Xfinity speed test because it does not reveal my ISP.

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15619

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

3/24/14 6:15:34 PM#73
Originally posted by lizardbones
 

 

Having played WoW for years, I can tell you that the majority of the players are playing through the quests.  They have the option of doing nothing but dungeons, nothing but PvP or just grinding mobs, but they are playing through the quests.  That doesn't mean that quests are the reason WoW is so successful, but it does mean that quests work just fine in a multiplayer environment.

 

Again though, your experience as an individual is not something that can be generalized to anyone but you.  I know two people who played something like 200+ hours in Skyrim, and among other things they really liked, they really like the quests.  So I have double the number of people than you've mentioned saying that the quests were a primary draw in Skyrim.  That doesn't mean they were the primary draw though.  Two people is pretty meaningless compared to the ten million people who bought the game.  More information is needed to say whether or not questing is a good fit for an ES MMORPG.  Probably the kind of information available to the ESO developers and designers.

 

Exactly, yet it seems many cannot make a point about their own preference without trying to encompass some majority opinion behind it. No one does this, no one does that, 90% do this, so on and so forth, when all they really have to say is, "I don't like questing: here's why..".

I personally find SKyrim to not have a whole lot for other playstyles outside of questing, You can change that with mods like Jobs in Skyrim, one of the bard mods, the carriage mod (one of my personal favorites right now) etc... With these mods I can RP a merchant blacksmith traveling between the holds selling my wares. Without those mods that experience would be completely hollow and all imagination.. ON the other hand an MMO easily allows for a playstyles like this ( the merchant).

Anyway my point is, without the quests Skyrim is a rather hollow experience IMO, there are a few things you can do outside of questing from an RP standpoint (built in). Hunting, Smithing, Hearthfire housing, and adoption. Yet none are really all that fleshed out, to be enough for a full on play-through like that without mods IMO. The only real side activity they took time on was dungeon dives, but few of them are not tied to a quest line of some form or bounty mission.

 

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  prowess

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/04/07
Posts: 170

 
OP  3/24/14 6:17:44 PM#74
Originally posted by someforumguy

It would have mattered a lot if the quests were not the main source of xp. Character progression could've been done by using abilities like in Skyrim. That way questlines would not be mandatory and you could do whatever you want to progress your character. But that would require an interesting world to explore I guess.

Correct.  And creating an interesting world takes a passionate design approach..  creating a world littered with questhubs, on the other hand...  I don't want quests to be taken out of the game, I just want it not a mandatory experience...  let me do quests the way I want to do them and let me leave the min-maxing to other parts of the game..  If you don't left-click thru dialogue and just run from marker to marker, you're not making effective use of your time.  It's not a single-player game..


I chose the Xfinity speed test because it does not reveal my ISP.

  Bannuk

Elite Member

Joined: 7/11/06
Posts: 191

3/24/14 6:21:15 PM#75
Originally posted by prowess
Any statement made by a person is an opinion...  I happen to be a long-time game-theorist and developer, so I think my opinion has a lot of value..  But you never have to qualify your statements as your opinions because that's a given.

Sorry, but dead wrong.  Your opinion has no more value than anyone else's, that's why it's an opinion.  Now, I respect your opinion but totally disagree with everything you said in the OP.    

  prowess

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/04/07
Posts: 170

 
OP  3/24/14 6:25:48 PM#76
Originally posted by Erda

Personally I don't mind quests if they are engaging and not fetch this or that.  TSW had a great quest system and I was absolutely immersed in the game, especially the main storyline.  Unfortunately once the quests were done, I was pretty much done with the game.  Little staying power although I will be back to see any new issues.   Other quest based games have been painful to play and this is one reason why I won't be picking up WildStar at release.  I found them painful.

I haven't played enough ESO to make a judgment yet.  The quests I did, I found enjoyable.  I do believe though that folks should have alternative ways to progress.  If you want to mob grind, that should be a viable option.  Dungeon running should also grant a nice chunk of experience.  I will probably do all the quests in ESO--the same that I do in any game.  For me, it adds to my immersion in the world.  For others though, there should be options to get off the quest track.

OP--I get what you are saying about Asheron's Call.  That was our first MMO and probably my best gaming experience ever.  I recall doing very few quests aside from our weapon quests.  We managed to find our own fun for many years in the that game.   Since then, I've enjoyed the various MMOs I've played but nothing matches the freedom I felt in Asheron's Call 1. 

I didn't play TSW but I agree with you.  There is room for quests in MMOs, but to make it the main focus of your progression..  You've just replaced grinding mobs with grinding quests.

The only part of ESO I found enjoyable was John Cleese and a bit of the combat.  I found the character design restrictive and the gameplay was a treadmill.  The combat was decent until I realized that it was merely auto-targeting..  the FPS aspects are an illusion.


I chose the Xfinity speed test because it does not reveal my ISP.

  prowess

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/04/07
Posts: 170

 
OP  3/24/14 6:34:52 PM#77
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by KalSirian2
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by KalSirian2

You cite Alan Wake, this is a single player game, no one here is saying that quests aren't an important part of single player games. Only that they don't fit well in a multiplayer environment, in the way the are done nowadays.

And no one is saying that you absolutely can't have fun doing quests in current MMORPGs, only that it could be done differently, and it might work better.

 

See, now we're getting into an opinion that someone is trying to generalize as being a generally accepted truth or a fact.  Except it's not.  Your experience is not the same experience that everyone else has.  There are over seven million people playing WoW, with quests and it seems to be working just fine.  If it was some sort of a fact or even a generally accepted truth that quests don't work in a multiplayer environment, then they wouldn't work so well in WoW.

 

Quests are not the source of WoW's success. Every single WoW player I talked to told me the same thing : they kept playing to be with their buddies. Now THIS is the interesting part : make a world that you can enjoy with others, and you will have success.

What I'm saying on the other hand is that mmo questing doesn't favor player/player interaction. Obviously it won't completely destroy it, but it seems worth a try to do things differently and see how it goes. Just saying "X and Y were part of Z game and Z sold" doesn't mean that X and Y were the reason of the Z's success.

Since we're talking about TESO, do you really think that questing was a big part of the Elder Scrolls games ? To me, it wasn't. Sure you got quests, but they were just incentives to go explore dungeons. Most of the reward was from the dungeon itself. And free roaming, was always for me the biggest time sink in both Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim. Questing was always completely optional.

 

Having played WoW for years, I can tell you that the majority of the players are playing through the quests.  They have the option of doing nothing but dungeons, nothing but PvP or just grinding mobs, but they are playing through the quests.  That doesn't mean that quests are the reason WoW is so successful, but it does mean that quests work just fine in a multiplayer environment.

 

Again though, your experience as an individual is not something that can be generalized to anyone but you.  I know two people who played something like 200+ hours in Skyrim, and among other things they really liked, they really like the quests.  So I have double the number of people than you've mentioned saying that the quests were a primary draw in Skyrim.  That doesn't mean they were the primary draw though.  Two people is pretty meaningless compared to the ten million people who bought the game.  More information is needed to say whether or not questing is a good fit for an ES MMORPG.  Probably the kind of information available to the ESO developers and designers.

 

When I played WoW, I did quests because I found them to be extremely easy and they outpaced any other means of advancement by sometimes 10 fold.


I chose the Xfinity speed test because it does not reveal my ISP.

  prowess

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/04/07
Posts: 170

 
OP  3/24/14 6:42:37 PM#78
Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by prowess

Most quests just kill the game for me...  Especially when the questing is mandatory (as is the case with ESO).  Like I'm too stupid to realize that the 4 guys standing next to me talking to the same NPC are doing the exact same quest that is my "destiny?"

Just give me tools and get out of my way, I'll make my own quests.  Asheron's Call was fantastic in the early days..  There weren't "quests" but we fuckin quested, man.

If there wasn't a mandatory linear story arc questline, I would be thrilled about this game..  I just can't force myself to spend hours and hours doing a questgrind..  I could, however, spend that time grinding mobs, gathering, crafting, exploring, getting into open-world PvP, getting lost, figuring things out...  I've had quite enough "go there and do this then run all the way back to me and left-click 42 times" to last me a lifetime.

Addendum: too many games, these days, put the story focus on the world...  So you're playing a part in a play..  I wish we had a current-generation game that just allowed players to carve out their own destinies..  Asheron's Call had the best storyline ever: you've been sucked into this crazy and dangerous world.  That's it.  Now go figure it out.  When did that formula expire?

Have u never played an Elder Scrolls game!? They are all quest based. All of them. As you point out, most games nowadays are.

Asheron's Call was a good game. You can still play it today if you like. This game is not AC, nor should anyone think it would be. AC, inspite being a great game; is a niche game. Comparatively few gamers would support such a game these days. Sandboxes are becoming more popular, but most people NEED direction. You give them a blank slate and say "now you figure it out" and what happens? They compain that either A) There is nothing to do (whether or not that is actually true) or B) They can't understand it / figure it out on their own.

This is why many newer sandboxes still hold on to some linear elements. Many still have a clear progression of some-kind to set players on the right track. Starbound, for example, does this with a tutorial questing system that guides players through what they can build on their way to unlocking harder planets. Eve also has something similar. While it is awesome to see a game that leaves the bulk of its content up to the player to figure out, there's a reason those games are very rare. Most gamers want to be handheld to some extent.

It sucks, but that's the reality of it. Between the internet and nearly 2 generations of games holding our hands, people have grown used to having something (or someone) else tell them how to play a game, or what to do. Now it's expected.

 

I played EVERY Elder Scrolls game and while I did quests, they were not quest-based.  I explored.  As soon as I made it to the open world, whichever direction they told me to go, I went the opposite way and I thrived.  FREEDOM was the biggest draw for all the ES games.  You could go through the quests in a linear way or you could just go join the mages guild..  You could just start killing guards...  Nothing was mandatory.  You could be a hunter/gatherer all your life and just craft and never do a single quest.  When I did quests in ES games, it was because they appealed to me at the moment they were available.  ESO immediately thrusts you on a questgrind and quests outpace any other means of advancement so heavily that they are mandatory if you want to be "good" at the game.  And since the regions are all broken up by level-ranges, you MUST questgrind in order to experience more content.  While I accept level-ranges as a necessary evil, look at how asheron's call did it..  There's a massive world and like 15 noob-towns with low-level mobs nearby and the further into the wilderness you traveled, the harder mobs got...  not that this would work for ESO, but locking you into a questgrind is not freedom and freedom is what made me love ES games.


I chose the Xfinity speed test because it does not reveal my ISP.

  daltanious

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 1783

3/24/14 7:16:05 PM#79
Originally posted by prowess

Most quests just kill the game for me... 

Never ever heard anything more silly then this. Unless you love to play i.e. tennis on console, quests ARE the game. And Immersion. And rest.

  prowess

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/04/07
Posts: 170

 
OP  3/24/14 7:46:43 PM#80
Originally posted by daltanious
Originally posted by prowess

Most quests just kill the game for me... 

Never ever heard anything more silly then this. Unless you love to play i.e. tennis on console, quests ARE the game. And Immersion. And rest.

as brilliant of an argument you laid out, what with stating your point of view assertively and all, I disagree for all the reasons I have already expressed.


I chose the Xfinity speed test because it does not reveal my ISP.

5 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 » Search