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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The Price of Honesty . . . in Dollars.

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22 posts found
  deathgiant

Novice Member

Joined: 3/04/10
Posts: 31

 
OP  3/18/14 9:00:19 AM#1

When a used car salesman sells a "lemon" on a lie, he gets a bad reputation by word of mouth. In this day and age, word of mouth is exponentially faster and wider spread. Twitter, facebook, forums, fansites . . . it all piles together into what is the public and private opinion of the masses.

 

As such, when any company, including mmo companies, use "underhanded practices" to achieve their goal of increased revenue, with small print, confusing contracts, or unscrupulous notes in EULA's that require a lawyer to understand, or any method that might seem immoral, it hurts the goodwill and trust of those who gave and give them their hard earned money.

 

Trust and openness is expected in any healthy business relationship. Sure, there are business secrets, but not when it comes to the fundamental legality and mutual understanding between both ends of the transaction.

 

Lack of understanding and communication can be unnerving.

"What are you doing with the product(s) into which I am investing my time and money?"

"Is my personal information, not just credit card information, safe?"

And "Can I ~trust~ that the company has my best interests at heart?"

Investors expect communication and openness. Games, telecommunications . . . whatever.

 

 

There are always nay-sayers, and those that excuse underhanded tactics to separate money from wallets; there are those who do not mind overspending with a company that is known for exploiting their customers. Because they can spend that money again on a different game. And again. And again.

 

So, final point for all us investors, and something for self-reflection: how many lies and how much deceit in your business affairs until you pack up and head somewhere else?

 

. . . and final point for those who mistreat their investors: There is a price to honesty . . . in dollars.

  Flyte27

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/13/05
Posts: 2255

3/18/14 11:23:55 AM#2
From what I've seen so far in current MMOs people don't care.  They will keep handing over their money.  I've tried to vote with my wallet for a long time, but there are to many people who are supporting these games with micro transactions.  If a game can't live by subscription then there is something wrong with it IMO.  These games may be generating money, but they can't seem to do it in an honest way.  If the game was really entertaining good products people wouldn't mind supporting them via a subscription fee.  For some reason the rules you mention don't apply to the software industry.
  nariusseldon

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

3/18/14 11:59:27 AM#3

1) I am not  an investor ... i play games to have fun.

2) If i ignore the cash shop, and play a f2p MMO for free, devs are not getting my money. Whether they are honest or not do not concern me. The only thing concerns me is whether the game is fun for me.

  CrazKanuk

Elite Member

Joined: 10/06/09
Posts: 1481

3/18/14 12:17:44 PM#4
Originally posted by deathgiant

When a used car salesman sells a "lemon" on a lie, he gets a bad reputation by word of mouth. In this day and age, word of mouth is exponentially faster and wider spread. Twitter, facebook, forums, fansites . . . it all piles together into what is the public and private opinion of the masses.

 

As such, when any company, including mmo companies, use "underhanded practices" to achieve their goal of increased revenue, with small print, confusing contracts, or unscrupulous notes in EULA's that require a lawyer to understand, or any method that might seem immoral, it hurts the goodwill and trust of those who gave and give them their hard earned money.

 

Trust and openness is expected in any healthy business relationship. Sure, there are business secrets, but not when it comes to the fundamental legality and mutual understanding between both ends of the transaction.

 

Lack of understanding and communication can be unnerving.

"What are you doing with the product(s) into which I am investing my time and money?"

"Is my personal information, not just credit card information, safe?"

And "Can I ~trust~ that the company has my best interests at heart?"

Investors expect communication and openness. Games, telecommunications . . . whatever.

 

 

There are always nay-sayers, and those that excuse underhanded tactics to separate money from wallets; there are those who do not mind overspending with a company that is known for exploiting their customers. Because they can spend that money again on a different game. And again. And again.

 

So, final point for all us investors, and something for self-reflection: how many lies and how much deceit in your business affairs until you pack up and head somewhere else?

 

. . . and final point for those who mistreat their investors: There is a price to honesty . . . in dollars.

OMFG! Ok, I'm going to go ahead and throw this right out there. I understand that there are cases where CHILDREN mis-understand what they're doing. There are even some iOS games which charge your credit card with the simple press of a button. However, for adults, there is absolutely NO EXCUSE you can give that excuses you from putting money into a game. You know what you're doing when you do it, and if you don't then, as a self-professed "Investor", I've got some great ideas I'd love to throw your way! 

 

I have 4 kids ranging from 6 to 12. Each of them has their own iPod connected through MY iTunes account. They've each had their devices for 3 years now and I have had but ONE incident where my kids bought something, and that was my youngest, who was 4 at the time!!! 

 

In addition, each of my kids has an account set up on SWTOR, two of my kids have accounts set up on multiple F2P MMOs. 

 

The one thing that I can tell you is they know when they're being sold something. Also, they have the mental fortitude to make calculated decisions. My 9 year-old once said to me, "I wanted to buy these gems (for 5 bux), but I only need to wait for an hour, so whatever." with regards to Clash of Clans (which is like one of the grabbiest of grabby games). 

 

So, not making excuses, but if a 9 year-old is able to make better financial decisions than a 40 year-old person, how bad is that? I'm really sorry, but I have a really tough time sympathizing with people who don't have the necessary intellect to make a good purchase decision. Or maybe they feel it is a good purchase for them.

 

You know what America really needs more of? Accountability!!! Really, if I need to read one more article about a fat person blaming McDonald's for making them fat, or someone filing a law suit against the lawnmower company because it didn't say "Not a hedge trimmer" and they cut their arm off, I think I'll be sick. Really sorry, but there is a massive difference between someone selling you a lemon and a F2P game. What you're talking about is a car salesperson selling you a car that you KNOW didn't have AC and then you coming back later and complaining it doesn't have AC. You KNOW what the product is, but you think you'll be fine. Sorry, it's not really as underhanded as you're making it out to be. 

 

Crazkanuk

----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10942

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

3/18/14 12:58:16 PM#5

I'm with CrazKanuk on this.  The majority of the burden should be on the people playing the games.  If something looks iffy, don't buy it.  If it's a F2P game, and you don't think it'll be fun, don't buy the cash shop items.  If you're not capable of not buying the cash shop items, don't play the game.

 

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  MsPtibiscuit

Novice Member

Joined: 2/24/14
Posts: 156

3/18/14 1:19:08 PM#6

The problem is the players.

Now even MMO goes out with day-one DLC and cash shop and people still want to buy them.

  Shrilly

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/24/11
Posts: 363

3/18/14 1:20:10 PM#7
Originally posted by deathgiant

When a used car salesman sells a "lemon" on a lie, he gets a bad reputation by word of mouth. In this day and age, word of mouth is exponentially faster and wider spread. Twitter, facebook, forums, fansites . . . it all piles together into what is the public and private opinion of the masses.

 

As such, when any company, including mmo companies, use "underhanded practices" to achieve their goal of increased revenue, with small print, confusing contracts, or unscrupulous notes in EULA's that require a lawyer to understand, or any method that might seem immoral, it hurts the goodwill and trust of those who gave and give them their hard earned money.

 

Trust and openness is expected in any healthy business relationship. Sure, there are business secrets, but not when it comes to the fundamental legality and mutual understanding between both ends of the transaction.

 

Lack of understanding and communication can be unnerving.

"What are you doing with the product(s) into which I am investing my time and money?"

"Is my personal information, not just credit card information, safe?"

And "Can I ~trust~ that the company has my best interests at heart?"

Investors expect communication and openness. Games, telecommunications . . . whatever.

 

 

There are always nay-sayers, and those that excuse underhanded tactics to separate money from wallets; there are those who do not mind overspending with a company that is known for exploiting their customers. Because they can spend that money again on a different game. And again. And again.

 

So, final point for all us investors, and something for self-reflection: how many lies and how much deceit in your business affairs until you pack up and head somewhere else?

 

. . . and final point for those who mistreat their investors: There is a price to honesty . . . in dollars.

Man iv'e been saying this for weeks. 

 

edit:typo and emote

  Shrilly

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/24/11
Posts: 363

3/18/14 1:23:28 PM#8
Originally posted by CrazKanuk
Originally posted by deathgiant

When a used car salesman sells a "lemon" on a lie, he gets a bad reputation by word of mouth. In this day and age, word of mouth is exponentially faster and wider spread. Twitter, facebook, forums, fansites . . . it all piles together into what is the public and private opinion of the masses.

 

As such, when any company, including mmo companies, use "underhanded practices" to achieve their goal of increased revenue, with small print, confusing contracts, or unscrupulous notes in EULA's that require a lawyer to understand, or any method that might seem immoral, it hurts the goodwill and trust of those who gave and give them their hard earned money.

 

Trust and openness is expected in any healthy business relationship. Sure, there are business secrets, but not when it comes to the fundamental legality and mutual understanding between both ends of the transaction.

 

Lack of understanding and communication can be unnerving.

"What are you doing with the product(s) into which I am investing my time and money?"

"Is my personal information, not just credit card information, safe?"

And "Can I ~trust~ that the company has my best interests at heart?"

Investors expect communication and openness. Games, telecommunications . . . whatever.

 

 

There are always nay-sayers, and those that excuse underhanded tactics to separate money from wallets; there are those who do not mind overspending with a company that is known for exploiting their customers. Because they can spend that money again on a different game. And again. And again.

 

So, final point for all us investors, and something for self-reflection: how many lies and how much deceit in your business affairs until you pack up and head somewhere else?

 

. . . and final point for those who mistreat their investors: There is a price to honesty . . . in dollars.

OMFG! Ok, I'm going to go ahead and throw this right out there. I understand that there are cases where CHILDREN mis-understand what they're doing. There are even some iOS games which charge your credit card with the simple press of a button. However, for adults, there is absolutely NO EXCUSE you can give that excuses you from putting money into a game. You know what you're doing when you do it, and if you don't then, as a self-professed "Investor", I've got some great ideas I'd love to throw your way! 

 

I have 4 kids ranging from 6 to 12. Each of them has their own iPod connected through MY iTunes account. They've each had their devices for 3 years now and I have had but ONE incident where my kids bought something, and that was my youngest, who was 4 at the time!!! 

 

In addition, each of my kids has an account set up on SWTOR, two of my kids have accounts set up on multiple F2P MMOs. 

 

The one thing that I can tell you is they know when they're being sold something. Also, they have the mental fortitude to make calculated decisions. My 9 year-old once said to me, "I wanted to buy these gems (for 5 bux), but I only need to wait for an hour, so whatever." with regards to Clash of Clans (which is like one of the grabbiest of grabby games). 

 

So, not making excuses, but if a 9 year-old is able to make better financial decisions than a 40 year-old person, how bad is that? I'm really sorry, but I have a really tough time sympathizing with people who don't have the necessary intellect to make a good purchase decision. Or maybe they feel it is a good purchase for them.

 

You know what America really needs more of? Accountability!!! Really, if I need to read one more article about a fat person blaming McDonald's for making them fat, or someone filing a law suit against the lawnmower company because it didn't say "Not a hedge trimmer" and they cut their arm off, I think I'll be sick. Really sorry, but there is a massive difference between someone selling you a lemon and a F2P game. What you're talking about is a car salesperson selling you a car that you KNOW didn't have AC and then you coming back later and complaining it doesn't have AC. You KNOW what the product is, but you think you'll be fine. Sorry, it's not really as underhanded as you're making it out to be. 

 

Thats what hes pointing out... How much bs are yall willing to buy and take, before you look at the ground and wonder where the innovation was where was the industry heading.

We will never know.

  Reklaw

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/07/06
Posts: 6168

The adult I am takes care of most things real life. However my inner-child is a GAMER!!

3/18/14 3:35:57 PM#9

Not sure if I understand this topic. Since I do not consider myself to be in a bussines relationship with game.

Games are my hobby, it's entertainment. And yes I spend money to be entertained (just box fee and/or sub, don't care for cashshops)

I avoid certain games that might feel more like a casino then an actuall game.

As for trusting gamecompany's or developers, to a certain point I do hope they provide me the promise of releasing a fun game, if not their loss not mine really. But it's the same trust level I have for writters, movie makers and any every other type of entertainment.

The only investment I make with games is providing myself with some entertainment and as a investment for my gaming hobby. And if it's not entertaining I don't spend money on it.

 

  Madimorga

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/26/10
Posts: 2012

3/18/14 4:13:20 PM#10

"There's a sucker born every minute."  

 

And many companies count on this.  In fact, the entire advertising industry is built on it.  Unless you really do think that sparkly new toothpaste is going to make you irresistible to that hot member of your preferred gender.

I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

~Albert Einstein

  Superman0X

Elite Member

Joined: 3/28/06
Posts: 1080

3/18/14 4:39:41 PM#11


Originally posted by Flyte27 From what I've seen so far in current MMOs people don't care.  They will keep handing over their money.  I've tried to vote with my wallet for a long time, but there are to many people who are supporting these games with micro transactions.  If a game can't live by subscription then there is something wrong with it IMO.  These games may be generating money, but they can't seem to do it in an honest way.  If the game was really entertaining good products people wouldn't mind supporting them via a subscription fee.  For some reason the rules you mention don't apply to the software industry.
 

The problem is that people do not actually understand how you vote with your wallet. Every dollar that you spend, counts as a vote. The market will chase after the money spent.

What most people do when they say they are 'voting with thier wallet' is NOT spend money on stuff they dont like. When you do this, you dont get ANY say in the outcome.

The proper (and only effective) way to vote with your wallet is to spend LOTS of money on stuff that you like, or is in the right general category. Want to see more P2P games? Buy 10 accounts, and pay the sub fee monthly. Get everyone else to do the same. Suddenly you will see P2P games making a ton of money, and every developer will want to make a P2P game to cash in.

This is what has happened with F2P, they were able to sell 2-3x as many subs by making the game free. It is because the people who wanted this were willing to pay for it, that developers suddenly started wanting to make thier games F2P.

The market always chases after the money spent. There are a few individuals that will try to branch out, and take risks with new markets.... but 80% will always just be following the money. If you want to see things change, make sure that there is always lots of money in the places that you want to go.

  Riannes

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/07/11
Posts: 65

3/18/14 4:49:47 PM#12
Originally posted by Superman0X

 


Originally posted by Flyte27 From what I've seen so far in current MMOs people don't care.  They will keep handing over their money.  I've tried to vote with my wallet for a long time, but there are to many people who are supporting these games with micro transactions.  If a game can't live by subscription then there is something wrong with it IMO.  These games may be generating money, but they can't seem to do it in an honest way.  If the game was really entertaining good products people wouldn't mind supporting them via a subscription fee.  For some reason the rules you mention don't apply to the software industry.
 

 

The problem is that people do not actually understand how you vote with your wallet. Every dollar that you spend, counts as a vote. The market will chase after the money spent.

What most people do when they say they are 'voting with thier wallet' is NOT spend money on stuff they dont like. When you do this, you dont get ANY say in the outcome.

The proper (and only effective) way to vote with your wallet is to spend LOTS of money on stuff that you like, or is in the right general category. Want to see more P2P games? Buy 10 accounts, and pay the sub fee monthly. Get everyone else to do the same. Suddenly you will see P2P games making a ton of money, and every developer will want to make a P2P game to cash in.

This is what has happened with F2P, they were able to sell 2-3x as many subs by making the game free. It is because the people who wanted this were willing to pay for it, that developers suddenly started wanting to make thier games F2P.

The market always chases after the money spent. There are a few individuals that will try to branch out, and take risks with new markets.... but 80% will always just be following the money. If you want to see things change, make sure that there is always lots of money in the places that you want to go.

 

nice post. a good read.

  Creslin321

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 5424

3/18/14 5:26:35 PM#13

You know, I get what CrazKanuk is saying with regard to accountability, but I also get what the OP is saying.

As for me, I generally will never pre-purchase a game.  Once a game is released there is normally PLENTY of information out on the net for you to make an informed decision.  Don't fall into the trap of pre-ordering...

However, I do think that some companies make questionable decisions in the interest of profiteering that will cause them to lose customers.  For example, I think that charging a sub, and a premium box price, AND forcing players to buy the collectors edition to play all the races in the game is just a little F'd up.  If it wasn't for this crap, I would probably buy ESO, but as is, I'm going to hold off for now.

Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  DamonVile

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4909

3/18/14 5:42:58 PM#14
Originally posted by Flyte27
From what I've seen so far in current MMOs people don't care.  They will keep handing over their money.  I've tried to vote with my wallet for a long time, but there are to many people who are supporting these games with micro transactions.  If a game can't live by subscription then there is something wrong with it IMO.  These games may be generating money, but they can't seem to do it in an honest way.  If the game was really entertaining good products people wouldn't mind supporting them via a subscription fee.  For some reason the rules you mention don't apply to the software industry.

You realize you just typed out " I try to vote the right way but too many people vote wrong"

  kostanza

Novice Member

Joined: 3/07/05
Posts: 48

3/18/14 5:47:43 PM#15
??? Pretty vague topic here. Sounds like someone paid for something with grand expectations to me.
  Loktofeit

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

3/18/14 6:11:46 PM#16
Originally posted by deathgiant

As such, when any company, including mmo companies, use "underhanded practices" to achieve their goal of increased revenue, with small print, confusing contracts...

Can you explain the particular contracts or small print that you re referring to?

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Flyte27

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/13/05
Posts: 2255

3/18/14 10:14:30 PM#17
Originally posted by Superman0X

 


Originally posted by Flyte27 From what I've seen so far in current MMOs people don't care.  They will keep handing over their money.  I've tried to vote with my wallet for a long time, but there are to many people who are supporting these games with micro transactions.  If a game can't live by subscription then there is something wrong with it IMO.  These games may be generating money, but they can't seem to do it in an honest way.  If the game was really entertaining good products people wouldn't mind supporting them via a subscription fee.  For some reason the rules you mention don't apply to the software industry.
 

 

The problem is that people do not actually understand how you vote with your wallet. Every dollar that you spend, counts as a vote. The market will chase after the money spent.

What most people do when they say they are 'voting with thier wallet' is NOT spend money on stuff they dont like. When you do this, you dont get ANY say in the outcome.

The proper (and only effective) way to vote with your wallet is to spend LOTS of money on stuff that you like, or is in the right general category. Want to see more P2P games? Buy 10 accounts, and pay the sub fee monthly. Get everyone else to do the same. Suddenly you will see P2P games making a ton of money, and every developer will want to make a P2P game to cash in.

This is what has happened with F2P, they were able to sell 2-3x as many subs by making the game free. It is because the people who wanted this were willing to pay for it, that developers suddenly started wanting to make thier games F2P.

The market always chases after the money spent. There are a few individuals that will try to branch out, and take risks with new markets.... but 80% will always just be following the money. If you want to see things change, make sure that there is always lots of money in the places that you want to go.

The problem with that (as I pointed out) is that there are no MMORPGs right now worth paying a sub for.  Not even one MMORPG that is out there right now is worth it IMO.  That's why all these MMOs have gone free to play fairly quickly.  A game needs to justify being pay to play.  You don't just support any game that uses pay to play in order to support the payment model.

  nariusseldon

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

3/18/14 11:55:19 PM#18
Originally posted by Flyte27
A game needs to justify being pay to play. 

No it does not. Just make it F2P with a cash shop. No justification needed.

 

  StonesDK

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/06/11
Posts: 1845

3/19/14 6:12:35 AM#19

Games are not a necessity of life, unless there's something wrong with you. In light of that, no sane person puts their money hoping to change where the genre is headed. If you are placing your bets on any other reason, other than what you find entertaining, you should consider, re-evaluating your mental health and what gaming does to it.

 

Having said that, it never fails to amaze me how many people have bought lifetime subs for games that ultimately failed to deliver or changed in a way that led the customer dissatisfied. There's nobody to blame but yourself.

 

 

  muffins89

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/15/12
Posts: 1255

3/19/14 6:23:41 AM#20

it's generational. more and more people are growing up "wealthy" and have no consequences for their actions. they see something they want, they buy it. they end up not liking it? "oh well, hey, what's that?" and it's on to the next thing. they have everything they could possibly want so why not have things they don't want/need. it's not about business ethics. it's about consumerism.

I think the prostitute mod corrupted your game files man. -elhefen

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