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General Discussion  » Zenimax got it wrong.

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  Allacore69

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/25/12
Posts: 878

3/17/14 10:16:28 AM#21


Originally posted by alicorn

Originally posted by Pyatra Several threads on this site actually linked patch notes that were newer than this last beta, and that was 2 weeks ago.  You seemed unsure about that point so just wanted to let you know they were already making huge fixes with quests to that build even before beta this weekend.
It's not a matter of confusion.  Patch notes can say anything.  I'm have not seen it for myself so I'm not taking a side on whether it's accurate or not.  I'm going to be playing anyway so I'm not concerned.  My point was that epic tales of a better version don't matter to the millions of people who don't really understand the point of beta and are breaking their mice in frustration and flaming the game.

I've been beta testing as far back as Ultima Online so I get it, but inviting everyone and their grandma to see the game in that state wasn't a great idea from a marketing standpoint.



You throw Ultima around a lot so I did some research. Here's what I found.

ULTIMA ONLINE HAD NO BETA!

The only betas were : Enhanced Client
A modified version of the Kingdom Reborn client, renamed as the "Enhanced Client," was introduced as part of the Stygian Abyss expansion. It was released as an open beta in July 2009 and the changes included enhanced macro abilities, a more configurable interface, changes to the mapping system, and graphical improvements.[33] The enhanced graphics of the Kingdom Reborn client had been retired in favor of lower resolution original graphics that more closely resembled the original 2D client. This graphic set was based on the Third Dawn client and was previously available in the Kingdom Reborn client as optional original graphics.

and : In May 1996, Ultima Online: Shattered Legacy is shown at the 1996 E3 Expo. Then, in August 1997, Lord British had an unfortunate accident. While giving a speech to a bright-eyed Britannian crowd, the King was engulfed in flames and spent some time in the realm of the dead. He was killed by Rainz, who was later banned from the game for reasons unrelated to the killing. Later, with the aid of his companions, he was revived and finished his speech, much to the delight of those in attendance.[34][35]
September 1997 was the last day of the original beta test. The beta ended with a bang, as players were treated to an "end of the world" scenario with Shadowlords, demons, and other evil creatures slaughtering every character in sight. Ultima Online opened its doors to the public.[36] In 1998, the game expanded, and the number of users reached over 100,000 worldwide. In 1999, the game expanded to Japan in January, to Europe in May, and to South Korea in July.

Source : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultima_Online

So only 2 expansions were tested publicaly for beta.

One closed(1997) and one open(2009)

The official game never had "outside" beta testing or "public" testing.

I'm not calling you out. Just clairify first so people don't look it up, like I did, and lose credibility.

Now I do agree with your post op. I have yet to see any "patch notes" for a build we have not tested yet.

I was getting pissed yesterday because the quests were bugged to death and for some reason my character would swing to death and the enemy would still be standing there looking at me like, "duh". lol

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5253

3/17/14 10:22:07 AM#22
I think the game should have been released two months later, but there is only a few MMOs that have come out where I have not thought that was the best thing to do.
  alicorn

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/10/04
Posts: 159

 
OP  3/17/14 10:23:43 AM#23

September 1997 was the last day of the original beta test. The beta ended with a bang, as players were treated to an "end of the world" scenario with Shadowlords, demons, and other evil creatures slaughtering every character in sight. Ultima Online opened its doors to the public.[36] In 1998, the game expanded, and the number of users reached over 100,000 worldwide. In 1999, the game expanded to Japan in January, to Europe in May, and to South Korea in July.

Source : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultima_Online

So only 2 expansions were tested publicaly for beta.

One closed(1997) and one open(2009)

The official game never had "outside" beta testing or "public" testing.

I'm not calling you out. Just clairify first so people don't look it up, like I did, and lose credibility.

Now I do agree with your post op. I have yet to see any "patch notes" for a build we have not tested yet.

I was getting pissed yesterday because the quests were bugged to death and for some reason my character would swing to death and the enemy would still be standing there looking at me like, "duh". lol

You aren't calling me out, I was in the beta test.  I actually have a still active account that was created the day UO launched and I had been part of the last beta in 1997 (I'm an old fart - good thing this isn't Logan's Run!) so it's fine if people look it up.  Having been beta testing that long doesn't make me special, I only use it as a reference that I have experienced betas going back a very long way when they were quite different than now.

Yeah this weekend was tough because I actuallye xpected to see some of the naggy bugs like <esc> and getting locked in crafting fixed and then to be falling through the world and have previously fine quests bugged was annoying.  I have a plan for launch though in case these issues still persist so as long as I can connect and stay online I am set to be happy :-)

  alicorn

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/10/04
Posts: 159

 
OP  3/17/14 10:26:04 AM#24
Originally posted by Scot
I think the game should have been released two months later, but there is only a few MMOs that have come out where I have not thought that was the best thing to do.

I wouldn't be surprised if Zenimax wishes they had decided on a June 1 launch date, but I think the repercussions of moving it back would be very high.  People want what they want, and they want it now, especially if it was promised to them.  Lots of people couldn't care less for excuses or the honest intent to release something better and having to wait a little longer than expected.  The gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands if they set the date back would be unimaginable.

  Gravarg

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 8/24/06
Posts: 3150

3/17/14 10:27:06 AM#25

The recent beta tests were to test server stability, Zenimax has even said this publicly.  It's not to test the client.  The final game client is already finished and being packed into boxes as we speak...

 

I would not be surprised the next time you open up your launcher and it starts to download, it will be a huge download, because the beta client is being replaced by the launch client.  I can remember when the "server test" client was rolled out a month or so ago that there was like a 6gb update, this signifies a change in the client's purpose.  Where only the core of the game was leftover, but many things they wanted to test were changed or added in, like npc collision and the like.

  alicorn

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/10/04
Posts: 159

 
OP  3/17/14 10:33:08 AM#26
Originally posted by Gravarg
The recent beta tests were to test server stability, Zenimax has even said this publicly.  It's not to test the client.  The final game client is already finished and being packed into boxes as we speak...

I'm not going to say you're wrong or right since neither of us work for Zenimax and can't truly know that.  But let's assume you're correct.  If that's true, then why did the previous beta client that was also used strictly to test server stability have so many less bugs.  Why were quests that were not broken now broken?

You can't say that it's because they used an older client to test the stability because this client had collision detection for the very first time, so it was a newer build.

I think your post is what you would like to be true, and for that matter what I would like to be true as well.  We won't know for 13 days.  That said, my OP was not being critical of there being bugs it was being critical of inviting the masses to see a bug-filled client at a time when people are deciding whether or not to buy.

Here, come taste my new spaghetti sauce.  It's not as good as the one I had you test last week, and this one tastes really strongly of vinegar, but ignore that because the stuff I have in the jars ready to ship is perfect.  This vinegar-laden one is just to test how well it stays on the spoon.

  elvigy

Novice Member

Joined: 10/15/05
Posts: 249

3/17/14 10:34:55 AM#27
Originally posted by rodarin

But yes there are some bugs. the HUD/UI bug is worse than ever now. The freezing for 2-5 seconds every minute (for a lot of people not all) is a major concern too. Dismounting on your horse, the ESC button not working etc.

I had the freezing problem as well and found that closing the launcher after you are in game fixes that. Just thought I'd pass it on.

As to OP, I agree. I will play at launch and have already pre-ordered the Imp edition so obviously I'm willing to be patient while they fix things. But it doesn't exactly put out the best impression.

Also, fyi, this WAS the latest build according to their own email invites.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17249

3/17/14 10:35:04 AM#28
Originally posted by alicorn

If the PTS is ahead of the game, that's great, BUT, Zenimax made a big mistake in my opinion.  You simply cannot invite 5 million people, 2 weeks before launch (March 30 for preorders with 5 day head start) and have that many quests broken, horse dismounts, invisible walls, getting locked in crafting or NPC dialogue, etc..  This beta was infinitely more buggy than the last two. 

Did you ever think (and i suspect the answer is "no") that because they just added collision detection they needed to test the game with "5 million people" (or however many) so they could see what exactly would break, under that stress, with this new addition?

  Allacore69

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/25/12
Posts: 878

3/17/14 10:37:08 AM#29


Originally posted by alicorn

September 1997 was the last day of the original beta test. The beta ended with a bang, as players were treated to an "end of the world" scenario with Shadowlords, demons, and other evil creatures slaughtering every character in sight. Ultima Online opened its doors to the public.[36] In 1998, the game expanded, and the number of users reached over 100,000 worldwide. In 1999, the game expanded to Japan in January, to Europe in May, and to South Korea in July. Source : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultima_Online So only 2 expansions were tested publicaly for beta. One closed(1997) and one open(2009) The official game never had "outside" beta testing or "public" testing. I'm not calling you out. Just clairify first so people don't look it up, like I did, and lose credibility. Now I do agree with your post op. I have yet to see any "patch notes" for a build we have not tested yet. I was getting pissed yesterday because the quests were bugged to death and for some reason my character would swing to death and the enemy would still be standing there looking at me like, "duh". lol
You aren't calling me out, I was in the beta test.  I actually have a still active account that was created the day UO launched and I had been part of the last beta in 1997 (I'm an old fart - good thing this isn't Logan's Run!) so it's fine if people look it up.  Having been beta testing that long doesn't make me special, I only use it as a reference that I have experienced betas going back a very long way when they were quite different than now.

Yeah this weekend was tough because I actuallye xpected to see some of the naggy bugs like <esc> and getting locked in crafting fixed and then to be falling through the world and have previously fine quests bugged was annoying.  I have a plan for launch though in case these issues still persist so as long as I can connect and stay online I am set to be happy :-)



DANG dude. Thats a long time yo'. I think I started my first beta 5 years ago lol.

Although in 1997 I was 12 lol.

  alicorn

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/10/04
Posts: 159

 
OP  3/17/14 10:39:16 AM#30
Originally posted by Gilllean
[mod edit]

 

If it launches the same way then it is Zenimax's fault.  Just because people are dumb enough to take crack doesn't absolve the seller of responsibility for the sale.  I realize that's extreme, but maybe society is to blame because people have given up hoping that game designers will hold themselves to a higher standard.

There's plenty of room for blame for everyone.  If I ever win the mega -millions jackpot I promise to put together a team to make a game done right and not release it until it's ready.  Maybe someone will beat me to the punch on putting out something with integrity because my odds of winning are kinda low.

Still wish it was March 30... unless I'm scheduled to die between now and then in which case I'd really be sorry if it were March 30!

  alicorn

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/10/04
Posts: 159

 
OP  3/17/14 10:41:48 AM#31
Originally posted by Allacore69

 


Originally posted by alicorn

September 1997 was the last day of the original beta test. The beta ended with a bang, as players were treated to an "end of the world" scenario with Shadowlords, demons, and other evil creatures slaughtering every character in sight. Ultima Online opened its doors to the public.[36] In 1998, the game expanded, and the number of users reached over 100,000 worldwide. In 1999, the game expanded to Japan in January, to Europe in May, and to South Korea in July. Source : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultima_Online So only 2 expansions were tested publicaly for beta. One closed(1997) and one open(2009) The official game never had "outside" beta testing or "public" testing. I'm not calling you out. Just clairify first so people don't look it up, like I did, and lose credibility. Now I do agree with your post op. I have yet to see any "patch notes" for a build we have not tested yet. I was getting pissed yesterday because the quests were bugged to death and for some reason my character would swing to death and the enemy would still be standing there looking at me like, "duh". lol
You aren't calling me out, I was in the beta test.  I actually have a still active account that was created the day UO launched and I had been part of the last beta in 1997 (I'm an old fart - good thing this isn't Logan's Run!) so it's fine if people look it up.  Having been beta testing that long doesn't make me special, I only use it as a reference that I have experienced betas going back a very long way when they were quite different than now.

 

Yeah this weekend was tough because I actuallye xpected to see some of the naggy bugs like and getting locked in crafting fixed and then to be falling through the world and have previously fine quests bugged was annoying.  I have a plan for launch though in case these issues still persist so as long as I can connect and stay online I am set to be happy :-)


 


DANG dude. Thats a long time yo'. I think I started my first beta 5 years ago lol.

Although in 1997 I was 12 lol.

In 1997 I was 31... told you I was old!  My first computer was in 1983, a TRS-80 Model 4 with 16k (yes 16k) memory and a cassette drive.  Oh, and it cost like $1500.  The dual 512k floppies I added later cost another $800.

  Vorthanion

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1919

3/17/14 10:41:56 AM#32
Originally posted by Pyatra
Several threads on this site actually linked patch notes that were newer than this last beta, and that was 2 weeks ago.  You seemed unsure about that point so just wanted to let you know they were already making huge fixes with quests to that build even before beta this weekend.

Haven't companies learned from the past yet?  First impressions can make or break a game, beta or not.

  alicorn

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/10/04
Posts: 159

 
OP  3/17/14 10:45:02 AM#33
Originally posted by Vorthanion
Originally posted by Pyatra
Several threads on this site actually linked patch notes that were newer than this last beta, and that was 2 weeks ago.  You seemed unsure about that point so just wanted to let you know they were already making huge fixes with quests to that build even before beta this weekend.

Haven't companies learned from the past yet?  First impressions can make or break a game, beta or not.

Thank you, that was my point.  I'm not flaming Zenimax or claiming I won't play.. I'm playing - buggy or not.  I just want the game to thrive and offering that kind of demo to that many people isn't a good idea.  I have a hard time believing collision detection broke quests, but I'm not a programmer, so maybe.

  Allacore69

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/25/12
Posts: 878

3/17/14 10:46:11 AM#34


Originally posted by alicorn

Originally posted by Vorthanion

Originally posted by Pyatra Several threads on this site actually linked patch notes that were newer than this last beta, and that was 2 weeks ago.  You seemed unsure about that point so just wanted to let you know they were already making huge fixes with quests to that build even before beta this weekend.
Haven't companies learned from the past yet?  First impressions can make or break a game, beta or not.
Thank you, that was my point.  I'm not flaming Zenimax or claiming I won't play.. I'm playing - buggy or not.  I just want the game to thrive and offering that kind of demo to that many people isn't a good idea.  I have a hard time believing collision detection broke quests, but I'm not a programmer, so maybe.


THIS^^^^^^

+1

  askdaboss

Novice Member

Joined: 9/13/11
Posts: 429

3/17/14 10:48:31 AM#35
Originally posted by alicorn
Originally posted by Ghabbo

Beta testing is the new trial. I love the game and will be playing it as soon as the servers are up, but your post is right on.

Yeah, sadly, people act like beta is an entitlement and should allow them to play through every quest and every level prior to launch.

...

Of course I just saw a commercial on TV from Best Buy where the employees take home hardware to learn how to use it before they sell it and they claim they are "beta testing" the stuff.  I don't think many people actually understand what that means or what the point is anymore.

For this situation, the game/IT companies themselves are also partly to blame.

Has anyone played Blizzard's Heartstone? The game is more polished than Professor X's skull! And they already have a cash shop in game. Beta? My ass.

Google are pulling a similar trick (gmail did it in the past, google drive), where people are basically using the "full product" but if you see a bug "eh, friend! It's only beta! (and it's been for the last year or so for you and the 500 millions people using the service already)"

 

This is perhaps the next move of AAA MMOs, releasing stuff as BETA to justify the bugs initially (of course this goes hand in hand with F2P).

Or the other option is "Kickstarter" style stuff, where people "support" the product regardless of bugs (but doesn't really fit the AAA model).

Nonetheless, P2P MMOs are massive software, so complex that they need a way to redirect the pressure and rage from the public in the rough initial weeks (Diablo, from the very same Blizzard as Heartstone failed to do this as well).

  Gilllean

Novice Member

Joined: 1/04/14
Posts: 188

3/17/14 10:50:42 AM#36

Well if on march 30 they will release unplayable client  than yes is their fault. But take in consideration they have their own testing team. Also PTS is much more fine than beta client Idk why they don't give that build to test.

Plus consider that TES TESO have some of most intersting quest with a huge variety. in nutshell is same old thing but is done with elegance and hard script no wonder there are so many bugs.

Let's just hope for the best guys. After so much work put into this game I don't believe they will release it broken .

 

Allacore69 Sorry sir but as a foreigner for me is quite difficult to know english so well as a native plus foreigners put much more time into studying it than natives  you just gain is slowly over a long period of time of repetition... Also it's 2014 Every one world wide has a computer  and out there are 5000 + languages I know 4  of them I'm just a human .... and English lag. is not main language in world just saying.

  Lord.Bachus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/14/07
Posts: 8599

I believe in life before death... So dont forget to enjoy it while you still can.

3/17/14 11:09:22 AM#37

Why cant you all just accept the fact that the next two months is a payed beta...  That will allow them to get all the bugs cleaned out...

 

the  most important day for this game is somewhere in june, as it will release in perfect state on the consoles...  Where they may sell like 3 to 4 million copies on PC, they might sell 10 to 15 million copies on consoles...  I think most of the console generation are very much ready for their first MMO.

 

 

The game is moving for greatness on the consoles, and Zenimax and Bethesda know this..

 

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  Shrilly

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/24/11
Posts: 363

3/17/14 11:18:18 AM#38
Originally posted by alicorn

*I expect flames, but please read so you actually know what you're flaming*

As a point of reference, I have been beta testing the game since last September, I am an outspoken advocate of the game, I bought the game, I plan to subscribe long term regardless of how smooth launch is or is not.  As much of a fan as I am, I'm also not blind and have to be honest.  That said, there's nothing game-breaking in my post below and really nothing intended to, or that should, scare anyone away.  I actually spent the last 3 betas doing nothing but standing around in starter areas helping new players find their footing.  That doesn't make me great or special but I anticipate that if I'm going to be critical people are going to wonder what my perspective is and if I am just calling it as I see it or looking to troll.

Zenimax always said they were not going to have an open beta, and while they didn't in the traditional sense, they kinda just did.  There are stories that the PTS has a much more updated version of the game that doesn't have all the bugs this weekend's beta does, and maybe that's true, maybe it isn't.  I'm not in a position to know the truth or say it's false so I'll leave it at "maybe".

If the PTS is ahead of the game, that's great, BUT, Zenimax made a big mistake in my opinion.  You simply cannot invite 5 million people, 2 weeks before launch (March 30 for preorders with 5 day head start) and have that many quests broken, horse dismounts, invisible walls, getting locked in crafting or NPC dialogue, etc..  This beta was infinitely more buggy than the last two.  I totally get that it's still beta and 2 weeks can lead to many fixes and a PTS server may already b cleaner, BUT, and here's where the big mistake comes in...

The truth is that MOST beta testers are NOT beta testers.  They are people out looking for a free sample.  They play the game as if it's the final model, base their purchase on how clean it is, and tell their friends to come or stay away based upon it.  Whether Zenimax intended to be giving out 5 million very bugged free samples, it's what they did and was a bad idea.  There are many of us who already bought or saw enough to go ahead an buy anyway, but there are a lot off people who will now stay away for a month, a few months, or completely.  It was really bad marketing of an excellent product in its less than clean state.

ESO is a great game and I plan to enjoy it for a long time, but unless you're bringing in 5 million real beta testers whose only intent is to find and report bugs, you're shooting yourself in the foot to expose that many people to a build far inferior to older beta versions.

Just my 2 cents, your experience may differ.

If i can't try the game and mechanics i WILL NOT BUY IT. Hpw the hell am i supposed to know what i am buying if i look at trailers?

I expereinced the same crap they been churning outta the mmo mill for years.

I'll pass.

  alicorn

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/10/04
Posts: 159

 
OP  3/17/14 11:22:45 AM#39
Originally posted by Shrilly

 

If i can't try the game and mechanics i WILL NOT BUY IT. Hpw the hell am i supposed to know what i am buying if i look at trailers?

I expereinced the same crap they been churning outta the mmo mill for years.

I'll pass.

I feel your pain, your "passing" is what frustrated me about this massive beta weekend.  It's not like everyone was going to play it anyway, but why scare off your potential market 2 weeks before launch.  Hopefully it will be released more polished than this weekend seemed and people like you will reconsider.

  Digna

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/19/05
Posts: 2014

The pen is mightier than the sword if the sword is very short, and the pen is very sharp.

3/17/14 12:12:19 PM#40

Personally I think the mistake(s) were revamping the starter areas and the more potentially  game screwing collision detection.

While I think the 'skip CH' was 'ok', it seems opposite what should be to go to the 1st city and then 'go backwards' for those wanted starter areas. Would have been better done (imo) if you appear on the starter isle as though you had done CH (starter area CH) and you were given an option to pop forward.

All that aside, the collision detection, which I did enjoy for the most part, had the possibility of adding so much overhead to the gameplay, particularly in massed player areas it had to be mass tested.

I'm enjoying the game (testing that is) and looking forward to the 30th with more anticipation than any other  game in a number of years. I think though that without condemning the game, ZOS would have been  better served by sorting out the quest bugs and things like the ESC key issue (a variant of the NPC dialog issue from the previous beta) and adding the CD later. At least with regards to pre-release marketing.

They didn't ask for my opinion and we got what we got.

I heard throughout the weekend that there was at least 1 if not multiple versions  ahead of this weekends, out on the PTS. I tried to get anyone making the statements to cough up that they were on the PTS (though I would have taken the info with a grain of salt) to try to nail the idea down. No one did that I saw. Doesn't mean there isn't another build, doesn't mean there is.

One thing that seems quite likely to me. IF there is a later build out there or if they have a magical mystery wave of fixes coming in the 1st few weeks/month (and if we figure a month that 6 weeks - a timeframe a lot of people seem to be angling towards being a reasonable period for substantial fixes), a lot of folks who are on the fence and probably a good few that 'cancelled' will probably come back. People need to feel comfortable with their money. If good info starts flowing out after release, a lot will return/join.

Here's to hoping.

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