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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Expansion=P2W?

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101 posts found
  laserit

Elite Member

Joined: 3/24/10
Posts: 1874

Confusius say: Man who go to bed with itchy bum wake up with stinky finger

 
OP  3/10/14 1:33:36 PM#1

Here's a conundrum for you:

 

When you purchase an expansion for real money you are purchasing a definite competitive advantage over someone who will not or can not purchase said expansion.

 

P2P, B2P or F2P it equates to the same thing

Discuss

 

 

"If you make an ass out of yourself, there will always be someone to ride you." - Bruce Lee

  Xthos

Novice Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2657

3/10/14 1:35:03 PM#2
I have thought deeply on this, no.
  Dogblaster

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 505

3/10/14 1:37:10 PM#3

I have bought new pc hardware few months ago, now I have better FPS than others. P2W.

 

/turd

  laserit

Elite Member

Joined: 3/24/10
Posts: 1874

Confusius say: Man who go to bed with itchy bum wake up with stinky finger

 
OP  3/10/14 1:40:01 PM#4
Originally posted by Dogblaster

I have bought new pc hardware few months ago, now I have better FPS than others. P2W.

 

/turd

What's the definition of P2W that people use on this site?

 

Paying for content that gives you an advantage over other player's

 

"If you make an ass out of yourself, there will always be someone to ride you." - Bruce Lee

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

3/10/14 1:40:51 PM#5

For theme park style games, expansions should be thought of as sequels ... they're a whole new game, just with a blurry boundary between one game and the next.

 

  iridescence

Novice Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1492

3/10/14 1:48:42 PM#6

May as well just call any game that isn't free "pay to win" I suppose it's correct on a very technical level but it's clearly not what most people mean by the term.

 

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

3/10/14 1:49:43 PM#7
Originally posted by laserit
Originally posted by Dogblaster

I have bought new pc hardware few months ago, now I have better FPS than others. P2W.

 

/turd

What's the definition of P2W that people use on this site?

 

Paying for content that gives you an advantage over other player's

 

Developer sanctioned cheating w/ paid permit.

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  zekeofev

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/28/11
Posts: 233

3/10/14 1:51:22 PM#8
Originally posted by laserit
Originally posted by Dogblaster

I have bought new pc hardware few months ago, now I have better FPS than others. P2W.

 

/turd

What's the definition of P2W that people use on this site?

 

Paying for content that gives you an advantage over other player's

 

Well sure to some extent they are pay to win. However, it is just like the person who cannot afford the monthly sub. they are at a disadvantage.

 

P2W is when a player can spend more money for an advantage. But most of the content that players are going to be doing in an expansion is going to be the expansion content. When everyone buys the xpac, it is not an advantage.

 

Yes I think there is a problem with lots of xpacs and each one offering a power increase....it might as well be a cash shop then. But an occasional xpac that most of the population buys is not P2W....it almost becomes part of the subscription fee.

 

Side questions for you so I understand your viewpoint OP:

Is owning both games (and perhaps multiple handhelds) of a Pokemon generation P2W?

Is buying more latteral power P2W? (examples: buying more champions in league of legends, buying more character slots)

  Tbau

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/07/14
Posts: 407

3/10/14 2:00:20 PM#9
Originally posted by laserit

Here's a conundrum for you:

When you purchase an expansion for real money you are purchasing a definite competitive advantage over someone who will not or can not purchase said expansion.

P2P, B2P or F2P it equates to the same thing

Discuss

That would mean just buying the original is P2W because it allows you to play, while others cannot.

 

Logical fallacies do not make conundrums.

  laserit

Elite Member

Joined: 3/24/10
Posts: 1874

Confusius say: Man who go to bed with itchy bum wake up with stinky finger

 
OP  3/10/14 2:01:02 PM#10
Originally posted by zekeofev
Originally posted by laserit
Originally posted by Dogblaster

I have bought new pc hardware few months ago, now I have better FPS than others. P2W.

 

/turd

What's the definition of P2W that people use on this site?

 

Paying for content that gives you an advantage over other player's

 

Well sure to some extent they are pay to win. However, it is just like the person who cannot afford the monthly sub. they are at a disadvantage.

 

P2W is when a player can spend more money for an advantage. But most of the content that players are going to be doing in an expansion is going to be the expansion content. When everyone buys the xpac, it is not an advantage.

 

Yes I think there is a problem with lots of xpacs and each one offering a power increase....it might as well be a cash shop then. But an occasional xpac that most of the population buys is not P2W....it almost becomes part of the subscription fee.

 

Side questions for you so I understand your viewpoint OP:

Is owning both games (and perhaps multiple handhelds) of a Pokemon generation P2W?

Is buying more latteral power P2W? (examples: buying more champions in league of legends, buying more character slots)

I'm kind of stirring up the pot 

 

I'm putting this in an MMORPG viewpoint (especially P2P) The way I look at it. If the MMO company gave the player a way to grind  level's and skill's for the class's he has had access to, without giving access to  the new content, this would clear up any kind of argument.

"If you make an ass out of yourself, there will always be someone to ride you." - Bruce Lee

  Aeonblades

Novice Member

Joined: 10/12/12
Posts: 2125

3/10/14 2:14:51 PM#11
Expansions are not P2W content. 

Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.

  zekeofev

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/28/11
Posts: 233

3/10/14 2:18:49 PM#12
Originally posted by laserit
Originally posted by zekeofev
Originally posted by laserit
Originally posted by Dogblaster

I have bought new pc hardware few months ago, now I have better FPS than others. P2W.

 

/turd

What's the definition of P2W that people use on this site?

 

Paying for content that gives you an advantage over other player's

 

Well sure to some extent they are pay to win. However, it is just like the person who cannot afford the monthly sub. they are at a disadvantage.

 

P2W is when a player can spend more money for an advantage. But most of the content that players are going to be doing in an expansion is going to be the expansion content. When everyone buys the xpac, it is not an advantage.

 

Yes I think there is a problem with lots of xpacs and each one offering a power increase....it might as well be a cash shop then. But an occasional xpac that most of the population buys is not P2W....it almost becomes part of the subscription fee.

 

Side questions for you so I understand your viewpoint OP:

Is owning both games (and perhaps multiple handhelds) of a Pokemon generation P2W?

Is buying more latteral power P2W? (examples: buying more champions in league of legends, buying more character slots)

I'm kind of stirring up the pot 

 

I'm putting this in an MMORPG viewpoint (especially P2P) The way I look at it. If the MMO company gave the player a way to grind  level's and skill's for the class's he has had access to, without giving access to  the new content, this would clear up any kind of argument.

Still waiting on your answers to my questions.

 

I mean, everything is a little bit pay to win. I mean your time to play the game, your experience on similar games before the game comes out. If you really want to stretch out the definition of P2W I could say practically every game was P2W. Paying money to access a beta is a grey area that some people would say gives an advantage and some would be fine with).

 

Ultimately what is significant enough to be P2W is ultimately subjective.

 

1: If a company made a xpac at an unreasonable price point (lets say, 1000 dollars) and it offered a power increase not attainable by players who do not have the xpac then it is P2W.

 

2: If a game offered 1000 different xpacs that had small stacking power to the player that had more xpacs the game would also be pay to win.

 

I think most people would agree with 1 and 2.

 

But so how is an xpac that is optional NOT pay to win? I would argue it is population adoption rate. If most people are playing with the same level of power so that there is not an advantage then the game is not pay 2 win.

 

Now what percentage is that? 99 percent? 51 percent? Food for thought.

 

 

  iridescence

Novice Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1492

3/10/14 2:33:13 PM#13
Originally posted by zekeofev

Ultimately what is significant enough to be P2W is ultimately subjective.

 

1: If a company made a xpac at an unreasonable price point (lets say, 1000 dollars) and it offered a power increase not attainable by players who do not have the xpac then it is P2W.

 

2: If a game offered 1000 different xpacs that had small stacking power to the player that had more xpacs the game would also be pay to win.

To  me it's only P2W if the main reason anyone would buy the x-pac is for the good items. Like "This expansion adds one monster type but you can also get a +10 sword of awesome available nowhere else in the game!" is pretty  P2W but if they're adding a whole new zone and one of the bosses drops the new sword it's just new content.

 

The $1000 expansion is only a problem because it's stupid for the company to charge a price that 99% of their customers wouldn't pay. Are you arguing that expansions should be included in the sub price? If so we probably will have to get used to paying more than $15 per month. No one works for free and they need money for maintenance/servers/customer support not just for new content creation.

 

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

3/10/14 2:35:44 PM#14

If a game must charge, it must charge the same for all people to remain a game.

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 22588

3/10/14 2:49:10 PM#15
Originally posted by FinalFikus

If a game must charge, it must charge the same for all people to remain a game.

why?

Would it make more money to get the whales to pay more?

  iixviiiix

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 775

3/10/14 2:52:17 PM#16

Expansion

= game become ruin with new change

= can't play old version

= have to spend more than monthly

 

But not

= pay 2 win

Win what in first place ?

You can't continue to play without pay expansion .

It more like buy a new game or pay for new DLC than pay to win

  laserit

Elite Member

Joined: 3/24/10
Posts: 1874

Confusius say: Man who go to bed with itchy bum wake up with stinky finger

 
OP  3/10/14 3:41:14 PM#17
Originally posted by zekeofev
Originally posted by laserit
Originally posted by zekeofev
Originally posted by laserit
Originally posted by Dogblaster

I have bought new pc hardware few months ago, now I have better FPS than others. P2W.

 

/turd

What's the definition of P2W that people use on this site?

 

Paying for content that gives you an advantage over other player's

 

Well sure to some extent they are pay to win. However, it is just like the person who cannot afford the monthly sub. they are at a disadvantage.

 

P2W is when a player can spend more money for an advantage. But most of the content that players are going to be doing in an expansion is going to be the expansion content. When everyone buys the xpac, it is not an advantage.

 

Yes I think there is a problem with lots of xpacs and each one offering a power increase....it might as well be a cash shop then. But an occasional xpac that most of the population buys is not P2W....it almost becomes part of the subscription fee.

 

Side questions for you so I understand your viewpoint OP:

Is owning both games (and perhaps multiple handhelds) of a Pokemon generation P2W?

Is buying more latteral power P2W? (examples: buying more champions in league of legends, buying more character slots)

I'm kind of stirring up the pot 

 

I'm putting this in an MMORPG viewpoint (especially P2P) The way I look at it. If the MMO company gave the player a way to grind  level's and skill's for the class's he has had access to, without giving access to  the new content, this would clear up any kind of argument.

Still waiting on your answers to my questions.

 

I mean, everything is a little bit pay to win. I mean your time to play the game, your experience on similar games before the game comes out. If you really want to stretch out the definition of P2W I could say practically every game was P2W. Paying money to access a beta is a grey area that some people would say gives an advantage and some would be fine with).

 

Ultimately what is significant enough to be P2W is ultimately subjective.

 

1: If a company made a xpac at an unreasonable price point (lets say, 1000 dollars) and it offered a power increase not attainable by players who do not have the xpac then it is P2W.

 

2: If a game offered 1000 different xpacs that had small stacking power to the player that had more xpacs the game would also be pay to win.

 

I think most people would agree with 1 and 2.

 

But so how is an xpac that is optional NOT pay to win? I would argue it is population adoption rate. If most people are playing with the same level of power so that there is not an advantage then the game is not pay 2 win.

 

Now what percentage is that? 99 percent? 51 percent? Food for thought.

 

 

Here's some answer's for your question's

 

Pokémon: I'm almost 50 I've never played but my grown up kids played it when they were young. Does buying both games give you an advantage? Is one more powerful then the other? I you have both does it boost your Pokemons to be more powerful then if you just own one?. I'm sorry I have no answer for Pokémon.

 

League of Legends: Never played it, not into Moba's. If you can only get better champion's by purchasing them, It's P2W. If you can earn them in game with no money then it's not P2W IMHO

 

1: What does the price have to do with anything? What's chump change for one is completely unaffordable for another.

 

2: I can see what your getting at, 1000's is quite a number but where's the threshold?  is 10 too many?  25? 50? 100? 500?

 

Again my view is if a player who does not purchase an Xpack can in some form (grind or whatever) attain max level and a complete skill list, one could not argue P2W. They could still compete with other player's

 

I would argue an Xpack as it is now, should give purchaser's new content, new classes or whatever. But it should not leave player's who do not purchase at a disadvantage level and skill wise.

 

 

 

"If you make an ass out of yourself, there will always be someone to ride you." - Bruce Lee

  iridescence

Novice Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1492

3/10/14 3:54:30 PM#18
Originally posted by laserit
 

I would argue an Xpack as it is now, should give purchaser's new content, new classes or whatever. But it should not leave player's who do not purchase at a disadvantage level and skill wise.

 

 

 

Why not? You pay for the game as it exists at launch. There's an assumption that an MMO is going to grow from what it is at launch and most players are happy to pay that price. Those who are not are not entitled to it for free.

 

You're asking for an MMO to remain static just to please the very small minority of players who can't afford a $30 expansion and yes, you say "well you can add new areas just not new powers or skills or gear" but we all know that increased character progression is the main thing most players want out of expansions. I doubt I'd even buy an expansion that didn't offer any way for my character to progress.

 

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

3/10/14 4:05:02 PM#19
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by FinalFikus

If a game must charge, it must charge the same for all people to remain a game.

why?

Would it make more money to get the whales to pay more?

Sure, but that is a device to get money from whales. Not a game. Unless there are some examples GAMES elsewhere in the world that have similar rules and is accepted as a game that I cant think of. Im not trying to hard though.

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

3/10/14 4:13:15 PM#20
Originally posted by iridescence
Originally posted by laserit
 

I would argue an Xpack as it is now, should give purchaser's new content, new classes or whatever. But it should not leave player's who do not purchase at a disadvantage level and skill wise.

 

 

 

Why not? You pay for the game as it exists at launch. There's an assumption that an MMO is going to grow from what it is at launch and most players are happy to pay that price. Those who are not are not entitled to it for free.

 

You're asking for an MMO to remain static just to please the very small minority of players who can't afford a $30 expansion and yes, you say "well you can add new areas just not new powers or skills or gear" but we all know that increased character progression is the main thing most players want out of expansions. I doubt I'd even buy an expansion that didn't offer any way for my character to progress.

 

Really? Anyone want the developer to grief you back 5-10 levels instead  of player vs player stuctures? Besides the pve only guys. Or implementing a new crafting system that offer alternative advancement?

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

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