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Landmark

Landmark 

General Discussion  » "Anything that can cause you death in the future...we will remove it" WTF??

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232 posts found
  Kevyne-Shandris

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/08
Posts: 1980

You can't † BURY † ¤¤ Holy Paladins ¤¤ As we will always __.- ASCEND -.__

3/09/14 1:16:04 PM#141
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by bcbully

The griefers have already won.

 

They have these people completely terrified, and happy to live boxes.


When they see new things, their first thought is "Will I be griefed?" If they can conceive away they may possibly be griefed, their first thought is to get rid of it. It's a form of PTS for some.

Whatever was done to those people had to be wrong. I see people citing UO, 15 years ago as reasons why they feel as they do.

15 years later, they would rather play in a box than build in a world because of those same griefers. I feel for these people. I wont pretend to know how to help.

I have to ask though, Is this the type of design we really want for the entirety of Landmark?

 

 

It's more than that, people don't seem to want to "compete" anymore in MMO's, outside of controlled combat situations or PVE scenarios.

Not only do they wish to avoid non-consensual PVP, they aren't interested in competing for resource nodes, learning to form the best relationships in game for mutual benefit, won't spend the time to create the best, most unique gear, they want it dropped or they want to be able to craft everything themselves with no reliance on others.

These titles are largely about going through the motions for the most part, and everyone wants total control of everything, what they do, what others do to them, what they spend their time on, and they will brook no interference from anyone, be it player, game design or anything else that might spoil their "fun."

The needs of the many are definitely overlooked to cater to the needs of the one.

 

Because after over 10 years of it, it became older than dirt.

 

Call it for what it really is: burnout of the same resource "threats".

Call it for what it really is: sick of FFA PvP in the nth MMO.

Call it for what it really is: not worth the time or money to waste on griefers.

 

I want to build a shiny new cathedral in a very pretty locale. I don't want to build it where heathens can defile it because they're heathens, and doing it because they're bored heathens, like they do in the nth MMO.

 

The only danger I seek is that God will be angry if it's not done, not the wrath of fellow humans snorting cocaine and bragging they can in chat.

 

Until people can play like human beings in an anonymous social scene, PvP needs to stay in it's own corner.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10633

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

3/09/14 1:43:29 PM#142
Originally posted by krage

I just can't see a game where people toil over creating structures to the best of their ability, farming materials over days, weeks, months, or even years would want to play a game where those labors of love can just be taken away in a fraction of the time they took to make it lol.

I think beach bullies comes to my mind, people want to build

and the non-consensual pvpers (Griefers imo in this kind of game) want to

Again though, I would not mind a PVP server, PVP island, or event setting to flag your claim at all...I am just not on board with forcing others (Like my wife who does not like PVP) to deal with your preferred gameplay that directly ruins their gameplay.

I would really even love to see and play with Guild claims that can go to war and attempt to invade each others castles or other structures with traps and other cool things to defeat intruders...just not as the base gameplay for everyone.

 

I keep coming back to Minecraft as an example of what might or might not work.  Playing on Minecraft servers where players have unfettered freedom results in a couple of things that I've seen.  One is the world is just a mess.  It's nearly impossible to even run through populated areas, much less build anything.  Two is that the players who have been there longer tend to farm the weaker players, especially the new players.  Three is that players don't actually build anything visible, and nothing that isn't 100% functional.  Think an obsidian box with a hidden water drop exit and possibly a bed the player can /home to if it's allowed on the server.

 

"Freedom" results in a lot of negatives when applied to the general gamer population.

 

A server that implements some restrictions on player behavior results in a very different experience.  If players can claim chunks that give both build and PvP protections, then they build things worth seeing.  Alliances with other players become meaningful and having a space to build and to be safe doesn't require being the largest single group on the server.  Another side effect of build restrictions combined with allowing OW PvP outside of safe zones is that the world doesn't turn into swiss cheese, and new players are both careful, but not farmed.

 

Is SOE going too far into the "protective" side of things?  Maybe, but probably not.  Most Minecraft players aren't on PvP servers, and if they are, most of them are playing with friends, not the general public.  A great many players are playing the single player version of the game.  SOE has probably read this one correctly.  Players who can have their constructions destroyed probably aren't going to build anything worth putting in EQN, which is why EQN:L exists.  I'm not sure why people thought EQN:L was going to be a better Darkfall or Mortal Online.

 

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Vorthanion

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1917

3/09/14 2:03:05 PM#143
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by DamonVile

The way land mark seems to be going about things makes me think they took a page right out of firefalls development.

Nobody really seems to have any idea what they really want to build but if enough people ask for it they'll add it in.

I almost feel like they really have nothing designed beyond building tools, idk. Beta starts in 3 weeks though...

Umm......Landmark's primary focus is building.  This has priority over pve and pvp.  Maybe you are following the wrong game and EQN is the one you should be waiting on.  This is their minecraft game.  EQN is the one that is focusing on adventuring, parkour and pvp.

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2435

World > Quest Progression

3/09/14 2:14:28 PM#144
Vorthanion

Landmark will be a lot more than structure building once it's fully fleshed out, PvE and PvP included. A good way to look at it, and similar has been said by SoE, Landmark will have content developed by players, EQN will have content developed by SoE.
  MrG8

Novice Member

Joined: 3/01/10
Posts: 79

3/09/14 2:31:36 PM#145
Haha you guys are amazing, you actually WANT to be able to ruin for others? Oh jesus... Well, what if they made one server that this would be possible? A server where someone actually can ruin your whole gameplay.... lets make that and see how many will play on that server... probably not a lot of people.
  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10633

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

3/09/14 2:34:44 PM#146
Originally posted by Aelious
Vorthanion

Landmark will be a lot more than structure building once it's fully fleshed out, PvE and PvP included. A good way to look at it, and similar has been said by SoE, Landmark will have content developed by players, EQN will have content developed by SoE.

 

One of the ideas they have floated is having continents with different rule sets.  Some continents would be "safe" and others would have monsters and a continent that not only has monsters, but has monsters inside player Landmarks.

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danieltack/2013/10/02/everquest-next-landmark-is-much-more-than-a-world-builder/

 

Seems like they could do the same thing with PvP.  It wouldn't make sense for a "safe" continent to have PvP, but that doesn't mean there couldn't be as many continents as there are rule sets.  A continent with a PvP rule set, but building is protected and a continent with a PvP rule set and where destruction is possible, but only using siege weapons, and so on.

 

**

 

If continent generation is largely procedure, the additional cost for additional continents would be negligible.

 

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  midnitewolf

Novice Member

Joined: 3/04/04
Posts: 27

3/09/14 2:40:59 PM#147

Here is the community's problem.  They all want it their way and if it isn't they gripe about it instead of moving on to a game that does have what they want in it.  This then leads to the problem with developers, they want to try to be everything to everyone instead, of just trying to make a good game that appeals to a subset of people.  These two things combined are the downfall of the MMO.

32% want Landmark to not have negative situations such as PvP or having their creations destroyed by other random players, what is wrong with them designing the game to accommodate that at the expense of those seeking mayhem and destruction.  For god's sake the game doesn't have to accommodate everyone, rather it just has to accommodate enough to be profitable.

Same goes with PvP vs PvE, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a game that offers zero PvP and there are millions of players that would be perfectly find with a well made 100% PvE game that didn't face situations where PvP balancing screwed up PvE gameplay. Again the game doesn't have to be everything to everyone.

Anyway, the sooner developers start realizing this fundamental truth and start designing games that appeal to specific markets that would generate modest but still highly profitable games rather than trying to be the next WoW, the sooner we will actually have good MMOs again.

  krage

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/22/11
Posts: 412

3/09/14 2:48:52 PM#148

Separate continents of varying threats would be great, go when you have that itch to adventure against NPCs on a island with NPC theme threats, or even PVP islands. If they do this I hope the rewards scale based on the difficulty, like there should never be an exclusive material per se but some of the more rare materials/rewards should be gated behind the more dangerous tasks like mining in a pvp zone or exploring that cave with a dragon poking his head out lol.

Especially on PVP zones, if people lay claims there that are able to get torn up by others hopefully the material gathering side is lessened through abundant materials. That and it will still make for a nice day trip for PVP-PVErs who just want to maximize farming mats without fearing a bit of pvp.

  Sinella

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/03/09
Posts: 337

3/09/14 3:20:28 PM#149
Originally posted by bcbully

The griefers have already won.

 

They have these people completely terrified, and happy to live boxes.


When they see new things, their first thought is "Will I be griefed?" If they can conceive away they may possibly be griefed, their first thought is to get rid of it. It's a form of PTS for some.

Whatever was done to those people had to be wrong. I see people citing UO, 15 years ago as reasons why they feel as they do.

15 years later, they would rather play in a box than build in a world because of those same griefers. I feel for these people. I wont pretend to know how to help.

I have to ask though, Is this the type of design we really want for the entirety of Landmark?

 

 

I think you really misunderstand things. Where you see freedom I see awful restrictions. Where you see restrictions I see freedom. I'm not happy to live in boxes..that's why I'm glad they don't allow other players to destroy people's creations or non-consensual PvP.

FFA PvP is the biggest restriction for me in a game, that's why I don't like games like that. How annoying it is when another player can stop me doing whatever I like, when he can waste my precious gaming time by forcing me to entertain him....where is my freedom then. I want a game where I can spend my time as I choose to, and that decision doesn't have to depend on the mood of some bullying kid who had a bad day and who wants to let his anger out on me or on my in-game creation. This is exactly the design I want to see in Landmark.

 

  Ender4

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2094

3/09/14 4:01:25 PM#150


Originally posted by Sinella

FFA PvP is the biggest restriction for me in a game, that's why I don't like games like that. How annoying it is when another player can stop me doing whatever I like, when he can waste my precious gaming time by forcing me to entertain him....where is my freedom then. I want a game where I can spend my time as I choose to, and that decision doesn't have to depend on the mood of some bullying kid who had a bad day and who wants to let his anger out on me or on my in-game creation. This is exactly the design I want to see in Landmark.


You have a really warped view of PvP. I think the best way for some like you and someone like me to coexist in gaming is to go with the specialty server. We just view gaming in such a completely different fashion.

Having said that in Landmark itself PvP doesn't make much sense unless it is consensual. In EQN I fully expect to see a PvP server.

  Kevyne-Shandris

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/08
Posts: 1980

You can't † BURY † ¤¤ Holy Paladins ¤¤ As we will always __.- ASCEND -.__

3/09/14 7:38:18 PM#151
Originally posted by Ender4

 


Originally posted by Sinella

 

FFA PvP is the biggest restriction for me in a game, that's why I don't like games like that. How annoying it is when another player can stop me doing whatever I like, when he can waste my precious gaming time by forcing me to entertain him....where is my freedom then. I want a game where I can spend my time as I choose to, and that decision doesn't have to depend on the mood of some bullying kid who had a bad day and who wants to let his anger out on me or on my in-game creation. This is exactly the design I want to see in Landmark.

 


 

You have a really warped view of PvP. I think the best way for some like you and someone like me to coexist in gaming is to go with the specialty server. We just view gaming in such a completely different fashion.

Having said that in Landmark itself PvP doesn't make much sense unless it is consensual. In EQN I fully expect to see a PvP server.

The issue is, even if players had a PvE server (like WoW offers) we're not free of the PvP, nor have options to turn it off, despite being on PvE servers (Shandris-Bronzebeard are PvE connected realms, not PvP).

 

New content that PvE players pay for, is being used to make content at their expense on those very PvE realms (Timeless Isle even allows same faction players TO KILL THEIR OWN FOR PVP COINS).

 

Enough of that madness.

 

Either it is PvE or it isn't. The two play styles are at odds in what their goals are to do in the game. Instance PvP is fine, because it's OFF THE SERVER.

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7238

 
OP  3/09/14 8:33:39 PM#152
Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris

 

....The two play styles are at odds in what their goals are to do in the game. Instance PvP is fine, because it's OFF THE SERVER.

As someone who loves a good raid just as much as a good brawl, I could not disagree more. the last thing I want is a PvP only battle ground, or a PvE only dungeon grinder. 

 

Emergent game play is neither pve or pvp. Anything can happen. Give me more of that. 

 

That being said, build with emergent systems in place, THEN turn combat off on a server(s) for those who don't want it. What's the problem?

 

/problem solved

 

edit - the last time I played WoW pallys were impossible to kill anyways!!!

When I eat chocolate chip pie it just doesn't feel like chocolate chip cookies. The texture, the consistency, it's just not the same and this is disappointing.

  User Deleted
3/09/14 8:42:21 PM#153
This was no surprise at all. Landmark was never going to be a PvP game. It's a bridge to pay the bills for EQN. It's a cute builder that by a dev that has talked a pretty good game but hasn't come through on 90% of it. Landmark is satisfying as a builder, I give it that. 
  Kevyne-Shandris

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/08
Posts: 1980

You can't † BURY † ¤¤ Holy Paladins ¤¤ As we will always __.- ASCEND -.__

3/09/14 8:49:30 PM#154
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris

 

....The two play styles are at odds in what their goals are to do in the game. Instance PvP is fine, because it's OFF THE SERVER.

As someone who loves a good raid just as much as a good brawl, I could not disagree more. the last thing I want is a PvP only battle ground, or a PvE only dungeon grinder. 

 

Emergent game play is neither pve or pvp. Anything can happen. Give me more of that. 

 

That being said, build with emergent systems in place, THEN turn combat off on a server(s) for those who don't want it. What's the problem?

 

/problem solved

 

edit - the last time I played WoW pallys were impossible to kill anyways!!!

Play WoW now and see what the World of Stuncraft has done to paladins. It ain't fun.

 

And "emergent game play" maybe your cup of tea, but when I rolled my toon on a PvE server it was to play on a server where the PvE is the content. That means anything but PvP and it's concepts.

 

It takes much more resources to make a good PvE game as art assets aren't cheap, but that's PvE, and players who enjoy it roll on PvE realms and pay for that content.

 

So solving that problem is this: PvE realm = PvE content and PvP realm = PvP content.

 

/solved

  Allein

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/13
Posts: 921

3/09/14 8:57:16 PM#155
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris

 

....The two play styles are at odds in what their goals are to do in the game. Instance PvP is fine, because it's OFF THE SERVER.

As someone who loves a good raid just as much as a good brawl, I could not disagree more. the last thing I want is a PvP only battle ground, or a PvE only dungeon grinder. 

Emergent game play is neither pve or pvp. Anything can happen. Give me more of that. 

That being said, build with emergent systems in place, THEN turn combat off on a server(s) for those who don't want it. What's the problem?

/problem solved

So it isn't either, but then you say turn PVP off, implying that it is on by default...

Emergent is just a buzzword like sandbox. It means whatever you want it to mean. There is no one definition or meaning.

Wouldn't it make more sense to just have either PVP or PVE servers (various types of each even) and then provide the tools for players to do what they want within those rule sets? No default anything.

Log in to an empty world. Up to players to do it all. 

The only problem is the one you've created. SOE sounds to be doing pretty much what you are suggesting. Again, not sure why the need to fix a problem that doesn't even exist.

Now when it comes to EQN. If they try to make it a PVP or PVE game by default and then tack on one afterwards. That will be an issue. I'm hoping they get that figured out. As the story, lore, AI, quests, world in general can be built completely different depending on the games focus or lack of one.

  Allein

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/13
Posts: 921

3/09/14 9:05:27 PM#156
Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris

....The two play styles are at odds in what their goals are to do in the game. Instance PvP is fine, because it's OFF THE SERVER.

As someone who loves a good raid just as much as a good brawl, I could not disagree more. the last thing I want is a PvP only battle ground, or a PvE only dungeon grinder. 

Emergent game play is neither pve or pvp. Anything can happen. Give me more of that. 

That being said, build with emergent systems in place, THEN turn combat off on a server(s) for those who don't want it. What's the problem?

/problem solved

edit - the last time I played WoW pallys were impossible to kill anyways!!!

Play WoW now and see what the World of Stuncraft has done to paladins. It ain't fun.

And "emergent game play" maybe your cup of tea, but when I rolled my toon on a PvE server it was to play on a server where the PvE is the content. That means anything but PvP and it's concepts.

It takes much more resources to make a good PvE game as art assets aren't cheap, but that's PvE, and players who enjoy it roll on PvE realms and pay for that content.

So solving that problem is this: PvE realm = PvE content and PvP realm = PvP content.

/solved

I hope SOE doesn't provide any content or at least very little. I'd rather have a clean slate and let players build the world.

Only difference would be that PVP would allow for players to attack one anther. Beyond that SOE doesn't have to do anything.

No extra content, resources, balance, etc. It is up to players to decide what goes. Would need various types of servers probably, but takes little effort on their part and puts all the load on us.

EQN is a completely different beast though. That needs a lot of work upfront.

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7238

 
OP  3/09/14 9:20:41 PM#157
Originally posted by Prhyme
This was no surprise at all. Landmark was never going to be a PvP game. It's a bridge to pay the bills for EQN. It's a cute builder that by a dev that has talked a pretty good game but hasn't come through on 90% of it. Landmark is satisfying as a builder, I give it that. 

Sadly that's what  the "NO!" contingent wants. There are no more than 500 (very generous guess) people spread across 200 islands at any given time. The population of this Alpha is about the same as End of Nations. Yet they still want more of the same. 

When I eat chocolate chip pie it just doesn't feel like chocolate chip cookies. The texture, the consistency, it's just not the same and this is disappointing.

  kairel182

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/23/13
Posts: 153

3/09/14 9:39:09 PM#158

I'm confused.  Everquest has and always will/should be about a strong PvE and group based style game.  Why are you surprised that the Landmark, which is nothing more than testing the basics of the game and engine through building and harvesting will not host any such PvP, especially FFA style?

 

Not every game can be a PvP, RvR, FFA PvP style focused game nor should they be.  This should have ZERO PvP in any form so they can craft an exceptionally strong PvE scene.  Mixing the two and creating silly rule sets never works and merely appeases a small subset of players but usually only half-assed.  

 

Don't get me wrong, I love PvP.  But MMO's in general aren't designed properly for it.  I'm looking into something such as Camelot Unchained for my unrelenting PvP itch and EQ:Next for me solid PvE core gameplay.  I really hope neither compromise their core ideas.

  Ramonski7

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/21/03
Posts: 2696

"A wise man has something to say, but a fool just has to say something."

3/09/14 9:44:51 PM#159

Everquest Next: Landmark is for a doozer community:

 

Why the hell would you invite a fraggle to the party?

 

You know what they eat right?


"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  jusomdude

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/21/06
Posts: 2359

3/09/14 9:46:50 PM#160
Originally posted by kairel182

I'm confused.  Everquest has and always will/should be about a strong PvE and group based style game.  Why are you surprised that the Landmark, which is nothing more than testing the basics of the game and engine through building and harvesting will not host any such PvP, especially FFA style?

 

Not every game can be a PvP, RvR, FFA PvP style focused game nor should they be.  This should have ZERO PvP in any form so they can craft an exceptionally strong PvE scene.  Mixing the two and creating silly rule sets never works and merely appeases a small subset of players but usually only half-assed.  

 

Don't get me wrong, I love PvP.  But MMO's in general aren't designed properly for it.  I'm looking into something such as Camelot Unchained for my unrelenting PvP itch and EQ:Next for me solid PvE core gameplay.  I really hope neither compromise their core ideas.

Somehow most players equate sandbox with ffa pvp. IDK where it started, but I'm glad SoE doesn't agree. FFA PvP is the lowest form of PvP there is, bacause it usually revolves around griefing no matter how people try to spin it as otherwise.

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