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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Enough with the twitching already!!!

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179 posts found
  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

3/09/14 2:20:42 PM#121
Originally posted by GuyClinch
Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
Originally posted by Jjix
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

Again, this is not a bad thing. I appreciate players who enjoy playing this way. It is just sad that they have infested a whole genre based on character, not player, abilities.

Sad is only a matter of perspective.

Look at a great game like Dishonored .. you get your skills, but you have to use it in real time. Ditto for Diablo, Bioshock, and many many great games.

It is not that i don't play turn-based games (Shadowrun return is great), but I feel great when there is so much fun in the action combat area. I suppose if you don't like it, you will feel sad ... but the whole thing is really about what the masses want, and the market decide.

 

You have been repeating that same tired old argument for almost 17 thousand posts now. Incredible.

it's because he is right.

This. Developers could make turn based games - but they know better. And yes turn based was a technological limitation in games like EQ and Wow. They would have been twitchier if we had the bandwith.

Twitchier like swg and UO?

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  Neo_Liberty

Novice Member

Joined: 11/08/06
Posts: 437

3/09/14 2:27:10 PM#122
Originally posted by FinalFikus
Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
Originally posted by Jjix
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

Again, this is not a bad thing. I appreciate players who enjoy playing this way. It is just sad that they have infested a whole genre based on character, not player, abilities.

Sad is only a matter of perspective.

Look at a great game like Dishonored .. you get your skills, but you have to use it in real time. Ditto for Diablo, Bioshock, and many many great games.

It is not that i don't play turn-based games (Shadowrun return is great), but I feel great when there is so much fun in the action combat area. I suppose if you don't like it, you will feel sad ... but the whole thing is really about what the masses want, and the market decide.

 

You have been repeating that same tired old argument for almost 17 thousand posts now. Incredible.

it's because he is right.

I have to agree as well.  Rts combat is best in rts games.

2 hands 2 buttons. I just kill the boars though. I don't need 60 skills. What are you guys doing to the boars?

Idk about all that other stuff.. but i do know that ppl like to be recognized for their achievements.. and to me there is nothing more amazing than being a lower lvl player being able to complete content that a higher lvl player can't simply because you have more skill... being able to survive in a raid or dungeon when everyone else dies and keeping the team from wiping because you have amazing skill...

 

This to me is a great reward... and a great reason to go action combat.

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

3/09/14 2:49:35 PM#123
Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
Originally posted by FinalFikus
Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
Originally posted by Jjix
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

Again, this is not a bad thing. I appreciate players who enjoy playing this way. It is just sad that they have infested a whole genre based on character, not player, abilities.

Sad is only a matter of perspective.

Look at a great game like Dishonored .. you get your skills, but you have to use it in real time. Ditto for Diablo, Bioshock, and many many great games.

It is not that i don't play turn-based games (Shadowrun return is great), but I feel great when there is so much fun in the action combat area. I suppose if you don't like it, you will feel sad ... but the whole thing is really about what the masses want, and the market decide.

 

You have been repeating that same tired old argument for almost 17 thousand posts now. Incredible.

it's because he is right.

I have to agree as well.  Rts combat is best in rts games.

2 hands 2 buttons. I just kill the boars though. I don't need 60 skills. What are you guys doing to the boars?

Idk about all that other stuff.. but i do know that ppl like to be recognized for their achievements.. and to me there is nothing more amazing than being a lower lvl player being able to complete content that a higher lvl player can't simply because you have more skill... being able to survive in a raid or dungeon when everyone else dies and keeping the team from wiping because you have amazing skill...

 

This to me is a great reward... and a great reason to go action combat.

Right.

Impossible odds, the only way to play imo.

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  Kevyne-Shandris

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/08
Posts: 1980

You can't † BURY † ¤¤ Holy Paladins ¤¤ As we will always __.- ASCEND -.__

3/09/14 3:08:20 PM#124
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris
 

Who would want it though in a MMORPG, when things like immersion/story/character development is much more important? Let alone active combat is a tiring feature, that will burn players out faster?

 

It's all about the pacing to get your value out of a franchise, unless you regard franchises as but disposable entertainment (then it'll be a quite expensive hobby with little to show for it).

I do. Who says immersion/story/character dev is much more important? That is just a preference. So what if it burns players out faster. It is better to have a short and very fun game, then a longer but mediocre one.

I got more value/fun out of Deus Ex and Dishonored than most MMOs (which they should learn from), and those games have great combat, and stories.

 

But do you still play Deus Ex?

 

I do.

 

Why?

 

Because the value is still there, as the game isn't disposable to this very day. All these years later, not a game could hold a torch to the original DX game.

 

And the pacing was perfect. Could race in and pull the room. Could sneak around sentries. Could be a pacifist. Could use your tools and environment to your advantage.

 

Your play style was represented.

 

Now try to get any of that AS A DESIGN in a game today. Publishers/devs are busy more dictating their ideas, than creating something ORIGINAL.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13683

3/09/14 10:56:50 PM#125
Originally posted by Vorthanion
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Vorthanion
Originally posted by Quizzical

Why, indeed, should your success in a game depend on what you do in that game?  Surely the answer to that is obvious.

Now, twitch combat isn't the only way to prevent combat from being completely stupid and boring, but it is probably the most common.

That's the funny thing about roleplaying.......one person's mana is another's poison.  MMOs aren't just about combat nor is one style of combat better or more entertaining than the other.  It goes to show just how much game developers are still clueless after all these years, when they haven't learned to resist the stream of lemmings jumping off the cliff. (In other words, something new and exciting shouldn't equate to every upcoming MMO embracing twitchy combat).

If your game isn't about combat, then it doesn't matter much if you have good combat.  Most (not all!) MMORPGs, however, are almost entirely about combat, with any other features being (often half-baked) things to make you better at combat.  And if your game is almost entirely about combat, having bad combat is a big problem.

Once again, you are not proving that one combat mechanic is superior to another, the term good is subjective and you know it, no matter your penchant for sidestepping the issue.  There is no doubt here that combat plays a significant role even in early RPGs let alone MMORPGs and even if it wasn't, why would any gamer not want all aspects of the MMORPG to be appealing, no matter how significant in the over-all picture?  There is an audience out there for all kinds of play styles and combat mechanics and so forth.  I certainly don't see the need or the reason for developers to arbitrarily dismiss any segment of the gaming audience by ceasing to make any future MMOs that cater to them.  This lemming style of development is not only illogical, it doesn't even make good business sense.

While there may not be objectively superior combat, if 90% of the players considering playing game A or game B like game A's combat better, then game B has a problem.

  Pratt2112

Elite Member

Joined: 2/12/12
Posts: 1282

3/09/14 11:07:39 PM#126
Originally posted by Xiaoki

Dear God no.


I would rather success in combat be based on skill and not spreadsheets.


The EQ/WoW style of turn based combat has gone about as far as it will go and it is time for a change.


I want MMO combat to evolve and improve, not be cemented in the past and stagnate.

And of course, by "evolve and improve", you mean "change to become more the way I prefer it". Right?

There's nothing about tab-based combat that's "cemented in the past and stagnating". It's a viable and valid method of control/combat that still has its place. You may not prefer it, but then that just makes it a preference. Nothing more.

As was stated just earlier in this thread... We can have both. There are Twitch-based combat MMOs for those who prefer that. There are the traditional tab-targeting types for fans of that style. And hey, there are even some in the middle (lik myself) who can and do enjoy both.

Then again, I've never been one to buy into the binary mindset so many people around here have, where it has to be one or the other; where one way is "good", the other way is "bad". There's this vast gray area in-between, and it's populated by many, many people whose tastes and preferences run the gamut. It's a rather nice place to be.

I couldn't imagine limiting myself to what games I play based on some arbitrary, strict "A or B, but never Both" mindset.

  nariusseldon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20250

3/09/14 11:18:35 PM#127
Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris
 

But do you still play Deus Ex?

 

Of course not. I finished it. There are plenty of new games to play. Good game != have to play forever.

 

  nariusseldon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20250

3/09/14 11:19:23 PM#128
Originally posted by TangentPoint
 

And of course, by "evolve and improve", you mean "change to become more the way I prefer it". Right?

And what is wrong with that? You don't suppose people want games to become LESS the way they prefer?

We are all just stating our own preferences here. Everyone is just doing that.

 

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3393

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

3/10/14 10:01:57 AM#129


Originally posted by FinalFikus

Originally posted by Neo_Liberty

Originally posted by Jjix

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by AlBQuirky
Again, this is not a bad thing. I appreciate players who enjoy playing this way. It is just sad that they have infested a whole genre based on character, not player, abilities.

Sad is only a matter of perspective.

Look at a great game like Dishonored .. you get your skills, but you have to use it in real time. Ditto for Diablo, Bioshock, and many many great games.

It is not that i don't play turn-based games (Shadowrun return is great), but I feel great when there is so much fun in the action combat area. I suppose if you don't like it, you will feel sad ... but the whole thing is really about what the masses want, and the market decide.



You have been repeating that same tired old argument for almost 17 thousand posts now. Incredible.

it's because he is right.

I have to agree as well.  Rts combat is best in rts games.

2 hands 2 buttons. I just kill the boars though. I don't need 60 skills. What are you guys doing to the boars?



All these players agreeing with nariusseldon. Goes to show 2 very interesting points:
1) The masses agree
2) The masses do not want RPG elements in their games

This is what makers me sad. Players who never wanted a virtual world for their character's to play around in have taken over and changed a whole genre. It's not just MMORPGs, either. Single Player RPGs also suffer from these "my abilities trump my character's abilities" masses.

Tab targeting is NOT turn based. It can be, certainly, but you all are "assuming" turn based is the ONLY kind of combat players who dislike twitch combat want. EQ was "real time". You just did not get to click the dodge/block/riposte buttons. They did not exist for you TO click. They were skills that your character knew, not you, the player.

RTS games. How many of you pause those RTS games in order to get your units orders? Not really RTS if one pauses all the time, now is it?

Congratulations. You've morphed many game genres into your beloved FPS games.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Vorthanion

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1954

3/10/14 10:08:33 AM#130
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Vorthanion
 

We are a significant part of the gaming audience.  Do not think for one second you're going to get twitch combat in every MMORPG from now on without us putting up a fight.  You might be surprised how powerful our wallets can speak for us.  Other than GW2, how many of your fabulous twitchy style MMORPGs are considered truly successful?  Whether it is due fully or in part to the combat, it is and always will remain a factor when you are dealing with gamers and their preferences.

Diablo 3 .. sold 15M boxes. PoE is successful.

There are lots of RPGs with twitch combat that is successful .. how about Borderlands 2 .. that is even a FPS.

The only reason MMORPGs are less so is that their combat is *not* actiony enough. GW2 has a bit closer to action combat, but still quite far compared to true action RPGs.

 

Then why have any genre of games at all, lets make all of them MOBAs and be done with it.  Even better, facebook games are even more popular than anything else out there, lets emulate them and screw everything and everyone else.

  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1462

3/10/14 1:47:59 PM#131
Originally posted by Quizzical
x

While there may not be objectively superior combat, if 90% of the players considering playing game A or game B like game A's combat better, then game B has a problem.

If it was really 90% of people that preferred twitch combat I don't think turn based games would be enjoying a renaissance led by crowdfunding. Bottom line is both types of combat can require great amounts of skill (different type of skills) and I think there will always be a market for both sorts of games.

Maybe MMOs should ditch the hotbars and figure out a way to make actual turn based combat work well in the MMO format though. I know a few have attempted it.

 

 

  Holophonist

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2035

3/10/14 1:55:33 PM#132
Can anybody explain to me what kind of skill and freedom of gameplay tab targeting brings to the table compared to twitch aiming? As far as I can tell the strategic element present in tab targeting is present in twitch games as well.
  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1462

3/10/14 1:56:57 PM#133
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

x

All these players agreeing with nariusseldon. Goes to show 2 very interesting points:
1) The masses agree
2) The masses do not want RPG elements in their games

 

This is what makers me sad. Players who never wanted a virtual world for their character's to play around in have taken over and changed a whole genre. It's not just MMORPGs, either. Single Player RPGs also suffer from these "my abilities trump my character's abilities" masses.

 

 

I don't know, Nariusseldon is very fond of claiming that "the masses" agree with him (reminds me of a common tactic in political debate). There really is no proof of this. Sure FPS games are popular but it doesn't mean that there isn't a large group of people that isn't looking for something different and not being served right now.

 

Reminds me the time  about 10 years ago that I heard some "expert" talking head on TV saying that "No one wants to take pictures with their cell phone. This is the stupidest idea ever and is going to totally bomb." 

 

 

  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1462

3/10/14 2:03:24 PM#134
Originally posted by Holophonist
Can anybody explain to me what kind of skill and freedom of gameplay tab targeting brings to the table compared to twitch aiming? As far as I can tell the strategic element present in tab targeting is present in twitch games as well.

For one thing tab-targeting and turn based allows a lot more skills to be available which the player must keep track of and learn and use together.

 

Twitch combat usually has a much shorter list of skills available and is more a test of reflexes rather than knowledge (what you need to do is very obvious it's just a question of whether you are fast enough).

 

 

  Holophonist

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2035

3/10/14 2:14:09 PM#135
Originally posted by iridescence
Originally posted by Holophonist
Can anybody explain to me what kind of skill and freedom of gameplay tab targeting brings to the table compared to twitch aiming? As far as I can tell the strategic element present in tab targeting is present in twitch games as well.

For one thing tab-targeting and turn based allows a lot more skills to be available which the player must keep track of and learn and use together.

 

Twitch combat usually has a much shorter list of skills available and is more a test of reflexes rather than knowledge (what you need to do is very obvious it's just a question of whether you are fast enough).

 

 

 

Well I'm not talking about turn based combat, because that's a separate issue. I'm just talking about the targeting system. Tab targeting doesn't magically allow you to have more abilities.

tab targeting is easier. That's what this is about. It's ok to want something that is easier, but let's just call it what it is. And by the way, the reason pro twitch people think tab targeting is boring, is precisely because of the fact that it is easier and less engaging.
  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1462

3/10/14 3:22:01 PM#136
Originally posted by Holophonist

Well I'm not talking about turn based combat, because that's a separate issue. I'm just talking about the targeting system. Tab targeting doesn't magically allow you to have more abilities.

tab targeting is easier. That's what this is about. It's ok to want something that is easier, but let's just call it what it is. And by the way, the reason pro twitch people think tab targeting is boring, is precisely because of the fact that it is easier and less engaging.

It is easier in one aspect which allows more depth and difficulty in another aspect.

 

In theory you could have a twitch based combat system as deep as say DDO with over 100 abilities available at max level and all kinds of different attacks and counter-attacks for specific situations  but not many people would be able to keep track of that while also executing the twitch part.

 

There is a reason why most twitch games have like 10 or less skills available at one time.

 

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15851

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

3/10/14 3:46:55 PM#137
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by FinalFikus

Originally posted by Neo_Liberty

Originally posted by Jjix

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by AlBQuirky
Again, this is not a bad thing. I appreciate players who enjoy playing this way. It is just sad that they have infested a whole genre based on character, not player, abilities.


Sad is only a matter of perspective.

 

Look at a great game like Dishonored .. you get your skills, but you have to use it in real time. Ditto for Diablo, Bioshock, and many many great games.

It is not that i don't play turn-based games (Shadowrun return is great), but I feel great when there is so much fun in the action combat area. I suppose if you don't like it, you will feel sad ... but the whole thing is really about what the masses want, and the market decide.



You have been repeating that same tired old argument for almost 17 thousand posts now. Incredible.

it's because he is right.

I have to agree as well.  Rts combat is best in rts games.

 

2 hands 2 buttons. I just kill the boars though. I don't need 60 skills. What are you guys doing to the boars?



All these players agreeing with nariusseldon. Goes to show 2 very interesting points:
1) The masses agree
2) The masses do not want RPG elements in their games

 

This is what makers me sad. Players who never wanted a virtual world for their character's to play around in have taken over and changed a whole genre. It's not just MMORPGs, either. Single Player RPGs also suffer from these "my abilities trump my character's abilities" masses.

Tab targeting is NOT turn based. It can be, certainly, but you all are "assuming" turn based is the ONLY kind of combat players who dislike twitch combat want. EQ was "real time". You just did not get to click the dodge/block/riposte buttons. They did not exist for you TO click. They were skills that your character knew, not you, the player.

RTS games. How many of you pause those RTS games in order to get your units orders? Not really RTS if one pauses all the time, now is it?

Congratulations. You've morphed many game genres into your beloved FPS games.

Why do you assume it's people who do not like or want virtual worlds that want twitch combat mechanics? One is not representative of the other in the slightest. Hell your post makes doubly no sense considering the most popular Virtual World RPG series is TES which has always had twitch oriented combat mechanics. It was always the more linear story driven RPGS that offered turn-based combat.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  Holophonist

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2035

3/10/14 5:56:38 PM#138
Originally posted by iridescence
Originally posted by Holophonist

Well I'm not talking about turn based combat, because that's a separate issue. I'm just talking about the targeting system. Tab targeting doesn't magically allow you to have more abilities.

tab targeting is easier. That's what this is about. It's ok to want something that is easier, but let's just call it what it is. And by the way, the reason pro twitch people think tab targeting is boring, is precisely because of the fact that it is easier and less engaging.

It is easier in one aspect which allows more depth and difficulty in another aspect.

 

In theory you could have a twitch based combat system as deep as say DDO with over 100 abilities available at max level and all kinds of different attacks and counter-attacks for specific situations  but not many people would be able to keep track of that while also executing the twitch part.

 

There is a reason why most twitch games have like 10 or less skills available at one time.

I don't understand why having it be tab targeting would allow for more skills. It's just the way you target something, that's it.

 

And the reason why most twitch games have like 10 or less skills is because the games with the most skills are MMOs and they are traditionally tab target because of technical limitations.

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3393

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

3/10/14 11:42:38 PM#139


Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by AlBQuirky
All these players agreeing with nariusseldon. Goes to show 2 very interesting points:
1) The masses agree
2) The masses do not want RPG elements in their games

This is what makers me sad. Players who never wanted a virtual world for their character's to play around in have taken over and changed a whole genre. It's not just MMORPGs, either. Single Player RPGs also suffer from these "my abilities trump my character's abilities" masses.

Tab targeting is NOT turn based. It can be, certainly, but you all are "assuming" turn based is the ONLY kind of combat players who dislike twitch combat want. EQ was "real time". You just did not get to click the dodge/block/riposte buttons. They did not exist for you TO click. They were skills that your character knew, not you, the player.

RTS games. How many of you pause those RTS games in order to get your units orders? Not really RTS if one pauses all the time, now is it?

Congratulations. You've morphed many game genres into your beloved FPS games.



Why do you assume it's people who do not like or want virtual worlds that want twitch combat mechanics? One is not representative of the other in the slightest. Hell your post makes doubly no sense considering the most popular Virtual World RPG series is TES which has always had twitch oriented combat mechanics. It was always the more linear story driven RPGS that offered turn-based combat.

I had another of my long-winded posts all written out, trying to explain my thoughts. After further consideration, I think it would be a waste of space, since you so missed the points I was trying to make in my other post.

You're right. I'm wrong. Carry on.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  rojoArcueid

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5790

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

3/11/14 12:02:06 AM#140
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
 

 combat rotations

i like tab target combat in mmos but when i have to rely on combat rotations and macros it stops being fun to me. I hope the decrease of skills coming with Warlors of Draenor makes the combat less relying on those rotations so everyone can be viable playing their class in their own way and not just playing with Icy-veins or Noxxic open.

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