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Elder Scrolls Online

Elder Scrolls Online 

General Discussion  » Best gear will be looted, not crafted.

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369 posts found
  Lorimar

Novice Member

Joined: 3/12/13
Posts: 9

3/09/14 6:33:02 AM#121

Nooooo... and here I thought Zenimax was THE 'Good Guy Developer' !

 

Sorry, but that one had to be :D

  ImperialSun

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/05/12
Posts: 231

3/09/14 6:34:05 AM#122
Originally posted by karmath

They say that they want to do their own thing, yet their actions equate into making it more like every other themepark clone.

Pretty fucking baffling.

 

This....

  ImperialSun

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/05/12
Posts: 231

3/09/14 6:42:10 AM#123

Let's be honest here...

 

The reason they have made these changes to xp for players when grouped and pvpers  across the board is because just six weeks from launch they have realised they don't have enough content and the content they do have will only last players a very short while, then they will leave.

 

this is a pure panic move, shit we have no content, players will max in like 2 weeks...too near release to address the issue in a professional manner so let's just nerf their Xp and crank up the grind to keep them playing longer...

 

 

  Apraxis

Novice Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1509

3/09/14 6:47:31 AM#124
Originally posted by Tbau
I wouldn't be surprised. DaoC started out with the best gear being crafted and then the developers caved in and changed it, one of them is the head of TESO development.

I guess your memories are not really right.

In the beginning in DAoC the Epic Quest Armor + some Drops (like Legion) was the best available. Just with the Expansion Shrouded Island and introduction of Echanting of Gear(or whatever the actual name was) crafted gear, and crafted sets was the norm, because withit you could come extremely close to the cap(stat, resistance and so on).

So no.. it wasn't like that in DAoC.. however almost every DAoC veteran will agree that after SI was the best state of DAoC and crafting.. as crafted item were the norm(not necessary the best in any single case, Sidi DRops were still valuable to complement your crafted set).

And yes, i would like if TESO would be something similar to DAoC after SI. We will see how it turns out in the long run.. because it is 100% clear that there will more than enough balance changing after release.. and we will see how it will settle in the future.

  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 5558

3/09/14 6:53:40 AM#125
Originally posted by ImperialSun
Originally posted by timidobserver
Originally posted by Fearum
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by Bannuk
Originally posted by Grym
Originally posted by DMKano

You can't compare a shallow crafting system in ESO to one of the best crafting systems ever - SWG.

Let alone a themepark based game vs a sandboxy game.

C'mon, apples and oranges.

Sorry dude, just lost credibility when you state ESO crafting is shallow.  By making that statement, I'm not sure you tried the crafting for any length of time.  I admit I never played SWG, so I can't compare the two styles.  However, I did ESO crafting for two full beta periods and was impressed with the level of complexity.  You can't just sit down and craft whatever you decide to make without researching traits, tempers, materials, styles, etc.  The crafting system in this game will take many many hours to master.  Your criticism, in this instance, seems uninformed.

Just because it takes hours to research does not make the crafting deep and complex, just time consuming.

Ding ding ding!

To Grym - I lost credibility but you admit you never played SWG hence you don't understand how shallow ESOs crafting is in comparison.

Hehe, dude its shallow, because 99% of all MMOs crafting is shallow in comparison, ESO is no different.

Get it?

 

SWG was such a great game they had to shut it down because people wouldn't stop playing it.

When I saw them glorifying SWG I had the same thought lol. At no stage did that game ever do particularly well. This is why they kept revamping it over and over until they eventually just shut it down. 

 

I wonder if ESO will be live for around 10 years and be so loved by its fan base that they devote years of free time to making an ESO emulator long after it's gone?

 

i think we all know the answer to that lol

Also totally ignores the fact that it was SOE that totally screwed up SWG,

First with the CU, although i will admit they probably went off the rails when they introduced the Hologrind for Jedi's, something that should never have existed in the game except as a very rare NPC.

 But they gave the game a final death blow with the NGE. The crafting community had already left by that point.

 SWG could have still been going strong if only they hadn't tried to change the original game mechanics, it would have been a niche game much as Eve online is, and probably with similar numbers, the fact that it had the best crafting system of any game including ones still in development, is a huge factor, as is the fact that it introduced social gaming through both medical and entertainment skill tree's. It also had housing and trading features that no other game has managed to do half as well.

 So if a game is compared to SWG's features, its because they still represent the best that has so far been achieved.

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 7033

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

3/09/14 6:56:43 AM#126

All they had to do is make drop rates extremely rare and with hidden agenda,that way players usually would not want to spend weeks/months/years killing the same boss for one item.Also to better add realism to games,you should NOT be able to kill the same Boss more than once,so you only get one shot at that drop item from that Boss.It really looks dumb in games when you supposedly killed that Boss but he is right back there in the same place 20 minutes later.

The REAL problem is that this game and every other are just so one dimensional it is making mmorpg's near obsolete.That problem is that these games are nothing more than gear grinds/progression,NO other reason to play.Yes we hear it all the time,FUN FUN,i call BS on that because players are playing every game the exact same way.

This is extremely lame game development,these devs need to come up with some other reason to get players to play.The main linear questing every game offers is nothing more than a single player design,something i have been saying about these games for years.That makes all these games single player games with internet attached with co op play to raid dungeons.

IMO it really is pretty sad that not one dev can come up with FUN as the reason to login instead of repeating grinds to gain levels and gear.I have a really hard time believing that some Warrior in 1592 would set out on a quest to kill 10 bears or repeat grind killing the same creature over and over for a drop item.This is why mmorpg design development has NOTHING todo with realistic  Role playing and because of the actual game play also has VERY little to do with the MMO aspect as well,other than of course internet and co-op play.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  Haralin

Novice Member

Joined: 1/22/11
Posts: 92

3/09/14 7:37:27 AM#127
For me it should be that all armor or weapons are available from crafting or PvE or PvP so every Playstyle can achieve what he wants.
  Deddmeat

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/20/10
Posts: 337

Not sure how I got K.A.E.S last PvP was CoD and UO lol

3/09/14 8:07:33 AM#128

@Phry .. who told you crafters had gone after the NGE, sure it sucked what they did but I still had my crafter, was in a city. I think there were at least 3 or 4 of us crafting in just the small city/town lol

Ofcourse some had FANTASTIC house layouts you'd be totally envious of, i tried to make mine respectable but hell, some of the guys/gals they were experts at interior decorating ;-)

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 5262

3/09/14 9:07:26 AM#129
Originally posted by timidobserver
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by timidobserver
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

I'm glad I saw this thread before I went and pre-ordered.

So TESO is like so many other MMOs out there now huh?

Scratch one more game off my To-Do list.

The game has a lot of betas. You'd probably get a better feel for the game if you joined one rather than some how using this thread to get an overall view of the game.

Unless you are a crafter, there isn't really much in this thread that gives a big picture view of the game. 

It's about the crafting. 

I thought FF14 ARR was supposed to be HUGE on crafting. It had classes dedicated to crafting that were as equally painstaking to level (Harder actually) than the combat classes. Then when they released the 2nd raid, crafting was left out. 

I went into a game believing there was finally an MMO that would keep crafting on par with PVE. It didn't. 

I almost went into TESO with the same hope. I'm just glad I know now.

 

And as you can imagine, a beta weekend isn't going to show me what I'm looking for.

Oh, well yeh, if crafting is a big enough deal to you that you can base your entire decision on whether to play the game on some beta change, then yeh TESO probably isn't for you.

I do think it is better to go and play the game and find out for yourself though. I never really take the word of others on that sort of thing if I have the ability to freely find out for myself. 

Your tone sounds very judgmental for my wanting an MMO with endgame competitive crafting.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  ImperialSun

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/05/12
Posts: 231

3/09/14 9:09:19 AM#130
Originally posted by Phry
Originally posted by ImperialSun
Originally posted by timidobserver
Originally posted by Fearum
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by Bannuk
Originally posted by Grym
Originally posted by DMKano

You can't compare a shallow crafting system in ESO to one of the best crafting systems ever - SWG.

Let alone a themepark based game vs a sandboxy game.

C'mon, apples and oranges.

Sorry dude, just lost credibility when you state ESO crafting is shallow.  By making that statement, I'm not sure you tried the crafting for any length of time.  I admit I never played SWG, so I can't compare the two styles.  However, I did ESO crafting for two full beta periods and was impressed with the level of complexity.  You can't just sit down and craft whatever you decide to make without researching traits, tempers, materials, styles, etc.  The crafting system in this game will take many many hours to master.  Your criticism, in this instance, seems uninformed.

Just because it takes hours to research does not make the crafting deep and complex, just time consuming.

Ding ding ding!

To Grym - I lost credibility but you admit you never played SWG hence you don't understand how shallow ESOs crafting is in comparison.

Hehe, dude its shallow, because 99% of all MMOs crafting is shallow in comparison, ESO is no different.

Get it?

 

SWG was such a great game they had to shut it down because people wouldn't stop playing it.

When I saw them glorifying SWG I had the same thought lol. At no stage did that game ever do particularly well. This is why they kept revamping it over and over until they eventually just shut it down. 

 

I wonder if ESO will be live for around 10 years and be so loved by its fan base that they devote years of free time to making an ESO emulator long after it's gone?

 

i think we all know the answer to that lol

Also totally ignores the fact that it was SOE that totally screwed up SWG,

First with the CU, although i will admit they probably went off the rails when they introduced the Hologrind for Jedi's, something that should never have existed in the game except as a very rare NPC.

 But they gave the game a final death blow with the NGE. The crafting community had already left by that point.

 SWG could have still been going strong if only they hadn't tried to change the original game mechanics, it would have been a niche game much as Eve online is, and probably with similar numbers, the fact that it had the best crafting system of any game including ones still in development, is a huge factor, as is the fact that it introduced social gaming through both medical and entertainment skill tree's. It also had housing and trading features that no other game has managed to do half as well.

 So if a game is compared to SWG's features, its because they still represent the best that has so far been achieved.

 

 

Could not agree more with this post :)

 

 

  Dogblaster

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 505

3/09/14 9:11:48 AM#131
Originally posted by Haralin
For me it should be that all armor or weapons are available from crafting or PvE or PvP so every Playstyle can achieve what he wants.

Well but is had to be balanced :) How you make crafting best for example weapon in-game to be as hard as dropping it from some super hard boss you need 12 people to kill? 

  Lahuzer

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/07/09
Posts: 686

Sit on my face and tell me that you love me...

3/09/14 9:14:15 AM#132
If they are really going down this road, and making crafting on par with looting I just cancell my preorder. How freaking lame is that? If people don't wanna craft, they should turn to crafters and buy the equpiment they want. Cause during the time it takes crafters to gather recources etc to craft stuff with, those that don't wanna craft can do dungeons and quest and grind or whatever and get gold to buy the gear. If they going through with this I won't play it. And they had just won me over to preorder it. Morons.
  ImperialSun

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/05/12
Posts: 231

3/09/14 9:22:56 AM#133
Originally posted by Dogblaster
Originally posted by Haralin
For me it should be that all armor or weapons are available from crafting or PvE or PvP so every Playstyle can achieve what he wants.

Well but is had to be balanced :) How you make crafting best for example weapon in-game to be as hard as dropping it from some super hard boss you need 12 people to kill? 

 

The best items in game should be crafted. Period.

 

who wants to run the same old PvE content over and over and over and over and over and over for a 1% chance at a single component drop split between 12 people.

 

that sort of thinly veiled gear treadmill is so 2010....where is the innovation I keep hearing about? 

  Preacher26

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 377

"This isn't good or bad. It's just the way of things. Nothing stays the same."

3/09/14 9:23:52 AM#134

Crafting should play an important role in this game. I don't think players should be forced to craft to obtain BiS items but IDE love a system that tied crafting into the gearing process... Like epics being the rarest quality that drops and NEEDING crafters to upgrade that gear to legendaries.... That way the best base items would be earned through the combat/adventure portion of the game but only with the help of a crafter can those items be upgraded to BiS. Otherwise why craft?  Just to make leveling easier or for an fresh 50 starter set? 

 

Crafting needs to be an important, social aspect of the game. IMHO of coarse

  SavageHorizon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/14/13
Posts: 1582

3/09/14 9:26:53 AM#135
Originally posted by reeereee
Originally posted by timidobserver
I find it hilarious that people think that crafters should be able to make gear that is superior to end game raid gear. On what planet does that even make sense. 

Apparently there were games like that in the time before WoW.

There are still games like that, Age Of Wulin/Wushu being one of them.

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  Apraxis

Novice Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1509

3/09/14 9:28:13 AM#136
Originally posted by timidobserver
I find it hilarious that people think that crafters should be able to make gear that is superior to end game raid gear. On what planet does that even make sense. 

On every planet, except the raiding one. Point is, for most players it is the better solution. Crafters get their credits, pvp player don't have to raid for their gear(just buy it from crafters, and give them credits for their work), and any other player basicly, too.

And this was one reason why DAoC worked out that good.. until ToA, until the best gear did come from Raidlike content.

Ok.. i do get that raiders do want some incentive.. but can this incentive be, that every other group is forced to do raiding, too, although they all hate raiding? No.. no not really.. not in any imaginable world, planet or universe.

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7498

3/09/14 9:38:58 AM#137


Originally posted by Tbau

I wouldn't be surprised. DaoC started out with the best gear being crafted and then the developers caved in and changed it, one of them is the head of TESO development.


Same goes for EVE, the flagship of sandbox game design. For the past years, CCP is driving the game purely into loot based economy.

Player crafted economy is interesting but not worthy concept to follow. The thing is, once you remove loot as progression or just gameplay objective, what to replace it with?

And honestly, loot is the best reward provided in video game (MMO)RPG ever. People just love loot, so why not giving it to them?

  Latronus

Novice Member

Joined: 1/10/08
Posts: 718

PC is not political correctness, it means Political Cowardice!

3/09/14 9:44:31 AM#138
Originally posted by Apraxis
Originally posted by timidobserver
I find it hilarious that people think that crafters should be able to make gear that is superior to end game raid gear. On what planet does that even make sense. 

On every planet, except the raiding one. Point is, for most players it is the better solution. Crafters get their credits, pvp player don't have to raid for their gear(just buy it from crafters, and give them credits for their work), and any other player basicly, too.

And this was one reason why DAoC worked out that good.. until ToA, until the best gear did come from Raidlike content.

Ok.. i do get that raiders do want some incentive.. but can this incentive be, that every other group is forced to do raiding, too, although they all hate raiding? No.. no not really.. not in any imaginable world, planet or universe.

It's been this way for a long time.  Casuals want the best gear but don't want to raid.  Raiders want the best gear to set themselves apart from the casuals.  Crafters want to their time crafting to have meaning and be rewarded for it.  

Now, if the numbers were there that crafting should provide the best rewards then there would be more MMOs where this was the case.  I bet the demographics just will not support your argument.   If they did, then crafted gear would be the best.  Since this is a subscription game, they made the decision that would bring in the most $$$$$.

  ImperialSun

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/05/12
Posts: 231

3/09/14 9:52:11 AM#139
Originally posted by Latronus
Originally posted by Apraxis
Originally posted by timidobserver
I find it hilarious that people think that crafters should be able to make gear that is superior to end game raid gear. On what planet does that even make sense. 

On every planet, except the raiding one. Point is, for most players it is the better solution. Crafters get their credits, pvp player don't have to raid for their gear(just buy it from crafters, and give them credits for their work), and any other player basicly, too.

And this was one reason why DAoC worked out that good.. until ToA, until the best gear did come from Raidlike content.

Ok.. i do get that raiders do want some incentive.. but can this incentive be, that every other group is forced to do raiding, too, although they all hate raiding? No.. no not really.. not in any imaginable world, planet or universe.

It's been this way for a long time.  Casuals want the best gear but don't want to raid.  Raiders want the best gear to set themselves apart from the casuals.  Crafters want to their time crafting to have meaning and be rewarded for it.  

Now, if the numbers were there that crafting should provide the best rewards then there would be more MMOs where this was the case.  I bet the demographics just will not support your argument.   If they did, then crafted gear would be the best.  Since this is a subscription game, they made the decision that would bring in the most $$$$$.

 

Precisely.

 

ZOS have confirmed they are no longer making the game for MMORPG players OR elder scrolls fans. It's there in black and white in the OP.

 

i assume the new target audience IS casuals then? Which supports the decision to shaft crafters, Competetive pvpers and old school MMORPG players who value being able to level and enjoy the gaming experience with their friends.

  someforumguy

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/25/07
Posts: 3518

3/09/14 9:54:47 AM#140
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Tbau

 

I wouldn't be surprised. DaoC started out with the best gear being crafted and then the developers caved in and changed it, one of them is the head of TESO development.


 

Same goes for EVE, the flagship of sandbox game design. For the past years, CCP is driving the game purely into loot based economy.

Player crafted economy is interesting but not worthy concept to follow. The thing is, once you remove loot as progression or just gameplay objective, what to replace it with?

And honestly, loot is the best reward provided in video game (MMO)RPG ever. People just love loot, so why not giving it to them?

It doesn't have to be just one way or the other. Loot can easily be tied into crafting. This has been done by several games.

As example : All gear is crafted, but can be customized with upgrades. The upgrades are looted and are needed to customize the crafted gear to efficiently support specific character builds. Players can add the upgrades themselves to gear, but crafters can then improve upon it.

Different crafting styles have to be looted (by reengineering weapons and armour or whatever) , which then give a blue print for the crafter to finish.

Just a simple example of how looting can tie in with crafting and creates more trade. Even trade windows can be made secure in a way that you never have to actually hand over your loot to some unknown crafter, and the crafter can still use it for an applying it to gear.

I also think that a large part of the community needs their loot fix, so yeah, completely crafting based might not be very popular for a themepark MMO. But there are many options to make crafting still very much needed. Instead of just some redundant hobby.

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