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Elder Scrolls Online

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General Discussion  » This Video is to Educate the Ignorant on MMO Graphics

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36 posts found
  Warjin

Novice Member

Joined: 10/25/09
Posts: 1203

 
OP  3/06/14 1:14:50 AM#1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYoLh0ajX9U

 

In a nut shell, if you can run Skyrim on Ultra at 60 + FPS on your computer you will run ESO on Ultra at about 20-30 FPS, MMO's are a different beast, it can not be done with our current technology both on our end and server side.

We might have Skyrim type graphics in a MMO running at 60 + FPS with 100 people playing in about 5-10 years, remember 15 years ago games like Ultima online took a desktop computer to run, now we can run Ultima even World of Warcraft on tables & smartphones.

 

 

 

  Karteli

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/09/12
Posts: 2704

3/06/14 1:18:43 AM#2
Originally posted by Warjin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYoLh0ajX9U

 

In a nut shell, if you can run Skyrim on Ultra at 60 + FPS on your computer you will run ESO on Ultra at about 20-30 FPS, MMO's are a different beast, it can not be done with our current technology both on our end and server side.

We might have Skyrim type graphics in a MMO running at 60 + FPS with 100 people playing in about 5-10 years, remember 15 years ago games like Ultima online took a desktop computer to run, now we can run Ultima even World of Warcraft on tables & smartphones.

 

YouTube caps at 24 fps, just sayin.

 

Game looks great for a 24 fps game!

 

But then again gameplay > graphics

Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  MMO-Relic

Novice Member

Joined: 12/12/13
Posts: 82

Typing is no substitute for thinking.

3/06/14 1:28:28 AM#3
Excellent post. :)

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It is true, the older you get, the less patience you have for those who watch a Youtube video and from that believe they know it all.

  Tygranir

Novice Member

Joined: 6/24/13
Posts: 765

3/06/14 1:33:26 AM#4
Doesn't explain why there are older MMOs that look much better with both graphics and animations than ESO though. Nice video, explains a few things nicely. Doesn't explain lackluster choices on what current tech CAN do.

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  Warjin

Novice Member

Joined: 10/25/09
Posts: 1203

 
OP  3/06/14 1:54:25 AM#5
Originally posted by Tygranir
Doesn't explain why there are older MMOs that look much better with both graphics and animations than ESO though. Nice video, explains a few things nicely. Doesn't explain lackluster choices on what current tech CAN do.

My guess is ESO wanted to make sure that RVR was playable on a broad range of computers, to date I don't think we have any MMO's out there that can handle this many players on one screen, maybe Plantside 2 but remember that game also has no NPC's, even PS2 character models look watered down to keep up with the player load, my bet if ESO was a pure PvE game they could of done better with the character models.

  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3200

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

3/06/14 2:08:30 AM#6


Originally posted by Warjin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYoLh0ajX9U

 

In a nut shell, if you can run Skyrim on Ultra at 60 + FPS on your computer you will run ESO on Ultra at about 20-30 FPS, MMO's are a different beast, it can not be done with our current technology both on our end and server side.

We might have Skyrim type graphics in a MMO running at 60 + FPS with 100 people playing in about 5-10 years, remember 15 years ago games like Ultima online took a desktop computer to run, now we can run Ultima even World of Warcraft on tables & smartphones.

 


That video makes such a weak sauce argument and relies heavily on the limitations of the gamebryo engine.

The only argument worth merit is the item variants on player models.


TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  Sk1ppeR

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/29/12
Posts: 534

3/06/14 2:14:46 AM#7

The video is bullshit. This guy basically explains that a MMO client renders and load stuff you do not see, that's bullshit. Every modern game, especially ones done in Hero Engine render and load only what you see. Have you ever wondered why you get fps boost when you move your camera away from the fun stuff, for example looking backwards? Yeah...this guy is bullshit most of the time, however he does make some pretty strong points. MMOs are usually watered down because of the people that play them. I doubt anyone is playing battlefield 4 in a 4+ year old PC, while 4+ year old PCs are i suppose the norm in MMO. But yeah, take what this guy is saying with a bit of grain of salt. He's not completely right :) 

 

On the other hand, I would love to see MMO being done in the latest Frostbite engine, that shit scales like a beast. Throw it an octa-core CPU and it will utilize it. Dual GPUs? No problem! And it's impressive, battlefield 4 with 64 players per map, with low ping, in an FPS ... given a first person shooter throws a lot more stuff on the network stack, the rate of commands alone is super high even if its just couple of bits going

 

P.S: Lawl i just wasted my time writing this post ... OP next time please do check the comment section of the video before posting a video. 

  skyline385

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/09/13
Posts: 601

3/06/14 2:20:01 AM#8
Originally posted by Tygranir
Doesn't explain why there are older MMOs that look much better with both graphics and animations than ESO though. Nice video, explains a few things nicely. Doesn't explain lackluster choices on what current tech CAN do.

Only Unreal Engine games (Tera, Blade and Soul) look better (but lack detailed foliage and the armors aren't textured as good as in ESO) from the ones already released. Black Desert uses it's own custom engine whereas there are some CryEngine games in development too. Bless Online uses the Unreal Engine as well.

ESO looks beautiful especially in many later areas. Many people who claim otherwise seemingly come up with 10 year old MMOs as examples which leads me to believe that they are just the typical haters.

  Brabbit1987

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 645

3/06/14 2:21:30 AM#9

Holy crap . .you all do know the information in that video is false and untrue.

 

I have to point out several things to explain why.

First, A single player game lags with that many NPCs because YOUR computer has to process it ALL. Physics plays a major roll in why it lags when you kill NPC's. Has nothing to do with graphics. It's why he is able to handle it when they are alive, but not when he kills them due to ragdoll physics.  Second, Skyrim is a terrible example since it's game engine actually has loads of problems unless you use mods to fix such problems. It has really bad memory issues.

As for MMO games, the server handles physics and NPCs and the game world, and all the events that are part of the game. Not your computer.

The truth of the matter is a person can easily make an MMO just as graphical as a single player game, the issue occurs when you are trying to broaden your audience and make the game being able to be handled across many older systems. Graphics are handled locally. So if your computer can handle 100 detailed characters in a single player game, it can handle the same in an MMO.

You want a good example? Planetside 2. That game did not skimp on graphics in the least bit.

 

The real reason why most MMOs do not have all that great graphics has nothing to do with performance issues or it being impossible. It all has to do with broadening out your audience allowing more players to be able to play and being able to have more players appear on the screen all at once. You want to have 300 players battles? Well unless you want everyone playing to have some amazing computer, you are going to need to lower the quality of your graphics.

Again, not that it's not possible, it's more of an issue of availability. You also have to remember ESO is on the newer consoles, which makes them very limited with how far they can push the graphics while still being able to obtain a certain amount of players on the screen at once.

And please don't go and say that is what he said, because it isn't. All his reasoning for why was false. He was correct about the showing many characters on the screen is an issue, but again all his reasons and examples are incorrect.

 

This is why you ask a game developer folks .. not some random youtuber who has no clue what he is talking about.

Heck even some comments point out how he is wrong. >.>

 

Edit: Oh also forgot to mention, in single player worlds your computer renders only what you can see, and the same goes with MMO worlds as well. Rendering out the world is done locally.  Your computer doesn't need to render the entire world and everything that is going on. Again the server processes all that information of what is going on. Not your computer.

  skyline385

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/09/13
Posts: 601

3/06/14 2:27:24 AM#10
Originally posted by Sk1ppeR

The video is bullshit. This guy basically explains that a MMO client renders and load stuff you do not see, that's bullshit. Every modern game, especially ones done in Hero Engine render and load only what you see. Have you ever wondered why you get fps boost when you move your camera away from the fun stuff, for example looking backwards? Yeah...this guy is bullshit most of the time, however he does make some pretty strong points. MMOs are usually watered down because of the people that play them. I doubt anyone is playing battlefield 4 in a 4+ year old PC, while 4+ year old PCs are i suppose the norm in MMO. But yeah, take what this guy is saying with a bit of grain of salt. He's not completely right :) 

 

On the other hand, I would love to see MMO being done in the latest Frostbite engine, that shit scales like a beast. Throw it an octa-core CPU and it will utilize it. Dual GPUs? No problem! And it's impressive, battlefield 4 with 64 players per map, with low ping, in an FPS ... given a first person shooter throws a lot more stuff on the network stack, the rate of commands alone is super high even if its just couple of bits going

 

P.S: Lawl i just wasted my time writing this post ... OP next time please do check the comment section of the video before posting a video. 

You are very wrong about Battlefield 4's network handling. The game is fun and all but their network code is terrible.

Battlefield servers use a 10Hz tick rate which if i understand correctly means that the servers update themselves every 100ms. This is like FFXIV 250ms server response time. Compare that to CS:GO which has 64Hz and 128Hz tick rates on their servers.

Dice themselves have admitted this and said that the game is built in such a way that it's not possible to correct it.

Sources:

 

Battlefield 4 Netcode - The Real Delay

 

http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/1xo8gf/battlefield_4_netcode_the_real_delay/

 

DICE explains state of Battlefield 4 "netcode issues"

 

DICE: you can never have “perfect” netcode in Battlefield 4

 

The point is DICE themselves are saying that the game has netcode issues because it has to handle 64 players so this comes out as a limitation of the Frostbite engine itself. This essentially makes the engine useless for MMOs.

 

  rounner

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/07/06
Posts: 532

3/06/14 2:32:12 AM#11
Quite a bit of BS here, even for mmorpg.com
  NexusCZ

Novice Member

Joined: 9/12/07
Posts: 65

3/06/14 2:35:27 AM#12

Good laugh i had, op video delusional as f***.

 Not saying the game have bad graphics but what he is saying is complete garbage like the heroengine it was been already proven with different self-called supposed "aaa" titles which are in fact small instanced bullcrap which run and perform like poop.

  skyline385

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/09/13
Posts: 601

3/06/14 2:43:24 AM#13
Originally posted by NexusCZ

Good laugh i had, op video delusional as f***.

 
 Not saying the game have bad graphics but what he is saying is complete garbage like the heroengine it was been already proven with different self-called supposed "aaa" titles which are in fact small instanced bullcrap which run and perform like poop.

Post your proofs next time. And no SWTOR doesn't count. It uses an Alpha version of the engine which was heavily customised by Bioware. It's so different from the Hero Engine that it can't even be updated to the final release.

  redbug

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/16/05
Posts: 185

3/06/14 2:45:06 AM#14
They sacrificed graphics in order to make there mega server dreams come true. The graphics in this game are average at best, if the fan boys like it though I guess its good enough. I suspect the majority of the people not complaining are the same people with outdated 17inch monitors and dual core computers.
  NexusCZ

Novice Member

Joined: 9/12/07
Posts: 65

3/06/14 2:53:36 AM#15
Originally posted by Warjin

In a nut shell, if you can run Skyrim on Ultra at 60 + FPS on your computer you will run ESO on Ultra at about 20-30 FPS, MMO's are a different beast, it can not be done with our current technology both on our end and server side.

Yes but not because mmo will somehow magically process rendering on server side like you saying in video had a good laugh at your very good knowledge.

 

In fact it is because heroengine = complete garbage for kid devs period.

  Randallt3mp

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 174

3/06/14 3:06:04 AM#16
Originally posted by redbug
They sacrificed graphics in order to make there mega server dreams come true. The graphics in this game are average at best, if the fan boys like it though I guess its good enough. I suspect the majority of the people not complaining are the same people with outdated 17inch monitors and dual core computers.

What mmo has or is capable of "much" better graphics?  
 

Why do you think no MMO with BF3, Crysis, witcher quality graphics has been made yet?  Few people would be able to run it.  It's fine for single player or maybe up to 64 ppl in A SMALL MAP, but for a huge mmo? cmon.

You can believe what you want, but If you are waiting for an MMO with that level of graphics that actually works well?  Well you are gonna be waiting for many years.  And even by then you are still going to say that those graphics aren't as good as the sp games graphics at that time.

Some of us like playing mmos now or maybe within year or two so we are willing to accept lower than top grade graphics, which ESO still looks very good by the way and runs extrememly smooth.

MMOs Played: FFXI,Age of Conan, Aion, Rift, SWTOR, TERA, TSW, GW2

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  Sk1ppeR

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/29/12
Posts: 534

3/07/14 12:37:45 PM#17
Originally posted by skyline385
Originally posted by Sk1ppeR

The video is bullshit. This guy basically explains that a MMO client renders and load stuff you do not see, that's bullshit. Every modern game, especially ones done in Hero Engine render and load only what you see. Have you ever wondered why you get fps boost when you move your camera away from the fun stuff, for example looking backwards? Yeah...this guy is bullshit most of the time, however he does make some pretty strong points. MMOs are usually watered down because of the people that play them. I doubt anyone is playing battlefield 4 in a 4+ year old PC, while 4+ year old PCs are i suppose the norm in MMO. But yeah, take what this guy is saying with a bit of grain of salt. He's not completely right :) 

 

On the other hand, I would love to see MMO being done in the latest Frostbite engine, that shit scales like a beast. Throw it an octa-core CPU and it will utilize it. Dual GPUs? No problem! And it's impressive, battlefield 4 with 64 players per map, with low ping, in an FPS ... given a first person shooter throws a lot more stuff on the network stack, the rate of commands alone is super high even if its just couple of bits going

 

P.S: Lawl i just wasted my time writing this post ... OP next time please do check the comment section of the video before posting a video. 

You are very wrong about Battlefield 4's network handling. The game is fun and all but their network code is terrible.

Battlefield servers use a 10Hz tick rate which if i understand correctly means that the servers update themselves every 100ms. This is like FFXIV 250ms server response time. Compare that to CS:GO which has 64Hz and 128Hz tick rates on their servers.

Dice themselves have admitted this and said that the game is built in such a way that it's not possible to correct it.

Sources:

 

Battlefield 4 Netcode - The Real Delay

 

http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/1xo8gf/battlefield_4_netcode_the_real_delay/

 

DICE explains state of Battlefield 4 "netcode issues"

 

DICE: you can never have “perfect” netcode in Battlefield 4

 

The point is DICE themselves are saying that the game has netcode issues because it has to handle 64 players so this comes out as a limitation of the Frostbite engine itself. This essentially makes the engine useless for MMOs.

 

Every online game has 100ms delay which is never accounted for because that's the standard. Its not just Battlefield or Counter Strike or final fantasy. The network engines are written with that in mind.

  Lord.Bachus

Elite Member

Joined: 5/14/07
Posts: 8562

I believe in life before death... So dont forget to enjoy it while you still can.

3/07/14 1:03:55 PM#18
Originally posted by Tygranir
Doesn't explain why there are older MMOs that look much better with both graphics and animations than ESO though. Nice video, explains a few things nicely. Doesn't explain lackluster choices on what current tech CAN do.

Ithe graphics are in my opinion the best of  any MMO out there

annimatioms are actually quite natural... Look at the 2 handed  annimations, if you ever wielded a battlehammer or a twohander you will recognise the annimations as realistic... 

even the armor styles are to my taste..

 

graphics have i proved greatly over the last few months, you should treat yourself to a gamepc and try next weekends beta on highest settings for yourself...  

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations)
Currently playing : The Elder Scrolls Online and Wildstar

  Aeonblades

Elite Member

Joined: 10/12/12
Posts: 2038

3/07/14 1:16:48 PM#19
Originally posted by Tygranir
Doesn't explain why there are older MMOs that look much better with both graphics and animations than ESO though. Nice video, explains a few things nicely. Doesn't explain lackluster choices on what current tech CAN do.

Uh. I can't think of an MMO that looks better on my current system running ESO on Ultra High +. Maybe enlighten us into what games would look better? I have tried pretty much all the major MMO's that have come out in 14 years, I'm really excited to hear about one that looks that good if so!

Currently Playing: ESO,FFXIV, various betas
Have played: You name it.

  SwashBuccaneer

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/04/10
Posts: 147

3/07/14 1:19:12 PM#20
The game isn't even that ugly.  I don't get the gripe.  It runs nicely on max settings for me and looks pretty damn good.
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