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General Discussion  » Is the PvP anything other than zerg?

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128 posts found
  Vyeth

Novice Member

Joined: 12/17/07
Posts: 1464

Celebrated pariah of MMORPG.com

3/05/14 12:25:43 PM#81

Is ANY PvP anything more than zerg?

Zerging is considered "Teamwork" and "Organization" in MMO's. It basically follows the same flow as a raid. Bring as many people as you can and beat the s#i! outta someone..

The only formula to winning in pvp is a = b + x, where a is your army size and b is the enemies army size..

  greenreen

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 1461

3/05/14 12:27:49 PM#82
Originally posted by Sk1ppeR
Originally posted by greenreen

When people compare the PVP to GW2 and say "like equals like" forecasting that they are going to be identical there are some  factors not taken into account.

1. Guild Stores and Guilds only being able to claim one area at a time.

This gives incentive to hold property and unlike GW2, one guild cannot own all of the map at once so a leading force should splinter once economy matters. In weekend betas people aren't concerned with economic gain because their characters aren't permanent.

2. Larger map allows for devious activity.

Even a zerg can't be everywhere at once. Since the size of this map is larger than the size of the GW2 maps, there is more space for people to congregate to play sideline things. In LOTRO we organized public vent groups for people to do one on one planned fighting, I see no reason it won't happen here because the spacing encourages it. This would be uplifted by cross-faction guilding.

3. Crafting styles originating from a character or dropped

There's a chance you will get a crafting style drop for something you like but also not. With cross faction trading in a guild store you can get a style of crafted item easier than your could from your own home area where people have to find the style versus having it as a default.

https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/5713/kw/alliance%20points

"...When an individual player joins a guild, all of the characters on that player’s account will gain access to the guild regardless of their character's alliance."

I'm taking this to read their guild store too.

4. Names are visible

With names comes vendetta and history. In GW2 your enemy was invader #4567891. Instead in ESO you see who you are fighting by name. You will gain and lose enemies. There will be people you want to target in a crowd. Over time we will all have our nemesis and seek them out because of history. A person can't hide well even in a zerg when people are hell bent to focus target them. Just taking on the Emperor title will make you known for awhile and people will be frothing to be able to get you back once your skill line has been decreased and you are regular Joe again. Anyone who has been in a game with regular PVP and names knows some of the names around them and plenty of their enemies. There is a revenge system too for killing players who have killed a lot of people recently. There is also a leaderboard displaying who is near the top again reinforcing name recognition.

5. Ranking

Zergs will be full of the weak because zergs are their mainstay. As people level, they will start to congregate with like minds on their level and form stronger groups for point gains avoiding many of the fodder entrants who will only give them average rewards when there are bigger fish to fry. I'm sure a higher ranked player could get gains from tickling the zerg but if the incentive is there to seek out higher ranks, they may take that incentive to heart and in combination with name recognition there will be players to hunt as their rank increases.

https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/3794/~/are-there-pvp-ranks%3F-if-so%2C-do-we-gain-more-or-less-alliance-points-depending

"...There are 50 PvP ranks with 25 titles and grades. When players rank up, they're worth more Alliance Points to enemies who manage to get a kill, but they won't earn less for killing lower-ranked players. They'll get more Alliance Points for killing higher-ranked characters."

 

 

 

You should really play some Gw2 WvW before expressing your opinion, mainly looking at your point one :) It's the same in Gw2.

Larger maps also impose the "ghost town" syndrome, also having to repair whats broken doesn't sound like all that much fun since you might get attacked before you manage to fix the keep you just earned...ouch.

I'm not really fond of RNG or gear treadmill like your point three, but I suppose thats more of a "per person" opinion.

I'm not sure that visible names are a good thing, mainly because of 13 year old keyboard warriors that will spam shit every time they get killed. It just adds up for nasty chat. There's a reason for the names in Gw2 to be like that, also the chat to be server locked, not global.

Gw2's WvW rank titles do show how strong a particular player might be, again, you should actually play Gw2 before expressing opinion about it. They are also automatic, so you can't hide that. People get a general idea of how strong you might be.

I played GW2. There are no guild stores in that game. Read it again UNLIKE GW2, players can't claim all keeps and resources in this game. You can't even claim a resource in GW2, you can only flip it for your side but you can't setup a guild store. That's something unique to this game.

You didn't understand #3 at all. The point was that as an Argonian I inherently have the style line. There is no RNG. That's the point, cross faction selling and buying eradicates the RNG drop chance for styles of alternate crafting styles until everyone has been seasoned enough to get them all simply because of time. If my Argonian guilds up with your Khajiit you can sell me your Khajiit styled gear and vice versa and neither of us were challenged to have the skill inherently.

Read what the titles are about - there are more alliance points gained fighting people your level and higher. I never claimed there were no ranks in the other game. I claimed that rank means something in this game for points and those are personal points adding incentive to personal rewards for taking advantage of the schema. It's not hard to ask me to help myself, everyone is inherently looking out for themselves and some greatly so in PVP.

Keep reaching. The PVP in this game is superior on all points. From the classes being all able to sneak, block, wear any gear or weapons and use many skill lines to having class skills alone which is predictable. Being able to move some siege weapons is another thing GW2 didn't have, it's all static. Ever drop a siege weapon that was 2 foot out of hitting something - tough luck. Also, you don't have to feed supplies to the siege weapons, they come pre-supplied. No running for supply in this game to even use your items. Supply was a mess in that game. People stole it from keeps constantly instead of taking it from camps and no one repaired doors and walls because they were too busy zerging. Again, see #1 for incentive. 

 

  Arataki

Novice Member

Joined: 12/19/07
Posts: 243

3/05/14 12:31:28 PM#83

OP, it sounds like you are looking for game mechanics that actively discourage any sort of arbitrary number grouping.

The play space is built in such a way that 'zerging' keeps and strongholds do not always equal victory. I would dare to say most of the time, such a tactic is costly. There are places in which 'zergs' are pretty much impossible such as within public dungeons. And there are wide open spaces armies can battle it out.

Your responses are less "can a zerg be beaten by small groups?" and more "They should have X game mechanic to punish large groups." The answer to the former, as others have posted, is yes. To the latter, no. And why should there be?

  CrazKanuk

Elite Member

Joined: 10/06/09
Posts: 1271

3/05/14 12:34:16 PM#84

At some point or another, any RvR type game with a large enough scale will become a zergfest...... at some level. I think that ESO has done a pretty good job of minimizing that as much as possible. I think there are plenty of PvP options regardless of your play style. 

 

I hope Camelot Unchained is taking notes right now :) 

Crazkanuk

----------------
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  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15730

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

3/05/14 12:39:51 PM#85
Originally posted by botrytis

It is the same as GW2 - don't kind yourself.  GW2 is not zergy (initially it was because that is how people play - but coordinated wins the day every time).  if you are coordinated - small groups can do much damage.

 

I wasn't impressed with ESO combat - no feedback and boring (key spam). If you like it - more power to ya. But, it is not the savior for MMO's that many say it is - it is just another game on rails.

You guys on the GW2 forums would have a cow when someone said people were trumping the game up in such a way. I thought it was just the haters who say stuff like that?

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7363

3/05/14 12:44:36 PM#86
I do a lot of small group and solo play. 

When I eat chocolate chip pie it just doesn't feel like chocolate chip cookies. The texture, the consistency, it's just not the same and this is disappointing.

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7363

3/05/14 12:45:58 PM#87
Originally posted by Vyeth

Is ANY PvP anything more than zerg?

Zerging is considered "Teamwork" and "Organization" in MMO's. It basically follows the same flow as a raid. Bring as many people as you can and beat the s#i! outta someone..

 

damn good answer when talking about group battles lol

When I eat chocolate chip pie it just doesn't feel like chocolate chip cookies. The texture, the consistency, it's just not the same and this is disappointing.

  Reticulata

Novice Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 82

3/05/14 2:18:39 PM#88

What is your definition of zerg?

To me it is a large group mowing down single players or small groups.

The siege battles are designed to be large scale. I don't consider an hour long keep battle between 2 or 3 factions consisting of 100 players on all sides a zerg. It is simply large scale combat.

There is a lot more to the pvp map than simply participating in large scale siege battles.

The fact alone that any class can stealth makes it very easy for a single player or small group to avoid being zerged if they see a large group rolling in the distance.

 

 

 

  free2play

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/13/05
Posts: 1817

3/05/14 2:28:48 PM#89
Originally posted by Reticulata

What is your definition of zerg?

To me it is a large group mowing down single players or small groups.

The siege battles are designed to be large scale. I don't consider an hour long keep battle between 2 or 3 factions consisting of 100 players on all sides a zerg. It is simply large scale combat.

There is a lot more to the pvp map than simply participating in large scale siege battles.

The fact alone that any class can stealth makes it very easy for a single player or small group to avoid being zerged if they see a large group rolling in the distance.

 

 

 

Those will all end up being alpha primary type strategy though.

100 vs 100 always become 100 vs 1 x 100. Part of this is tied to PvE where everyone focuses on a boss or a primary target that is made 'hard' by making it a hit point wall that requires 6 or 12 people to chew on. It carries over to PvP.

 

No Dev can ever balance my character to take damage from 12 people so alpha or zerging will always work. It's why people do it.

  WarThor

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/20/06
Posts: 42

3/05/14 2:34:29 PM#90
I like to roll out with the zerg once and awhile but I really enjoy small stealth gank groups getting peeps here and there more.  So you might see me helping the zerg you might not see me till its too late.  Muhahaha!
  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4935

3/05/14 3:24:04 PM#91
What is the reward system like? How this game rewards players for accomplishments, will determine how much zerg there will be. If it works in player's favor and they get the most amount of credit for being in large groups, then that's what's going to happen despite what's possible and fun.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  botrytis

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2542

3/05/14 3:29:07 PM#92
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by botrytis

It is the same as GW2 - don't kind yourself.  GW2 is not zergy (initially it was because that is how people play - but coordinated wins the day every time).  if you are coordinated - small groups can do much damage.

 

I wasn't impressed with ESO combat - no feedback and boring (key spam). If you like it - more power to ya. But, it is not the savior for MMO's that many say it is - it is just another game on rails.

You guys on the GW2 forums would have a cow when someone said people were trumping the game up in such a way. I thought it was just the haters who say stuff like that?

One word - TOUCHE!  Everyone on the ESO forum is grumpy because people are saying PvP will be zergy  - Unless is it a defined PvP (like Halls of heros in GW1), it will be zergy.

 

When you get a large amount of player on one map, that is what happens. Guilds don't want to listen to guilds, etc. Coordination is out the window - it is hard to do and manage.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  Azzras

Novice Member

Joined: 2/10/14
Posts: 422

One Shot, Two Kills.

3/05/14 3:31:47 PM#93
Originally posted by Velocinox
Originally posted by Satarious
Originally posted by MikeB
Originally posted by Velocinox

Tower zerg, open field zerg, scouting for their zerg...

 

Does that about sum it up?

 

Sell me.

No.

As MikeB said, No.  There are plenty of youtube videos out there that show small groups taking out stragglers.

 

So a smaller zerg?

I'm starting to think the OP doesn't understand the term zerg.

He thinks a group of 4 is a zerg?

/sigh

  botrytis

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2542

3/05/14 3:36:55 PM#94
Originally posted by Azzras
Originally posted by Velocinox
Originally posted by Satarious
Originally posted by MikeB
Originally posted by Velocinox

Tower zerg, open field zerg, scouting for their zerg...

 

Does that about sum it up?

 

Sell me.

No.

As MikeB said, No.  There are plenty of youtube videos out there that show small groups taking out stragglers.

 

So a smaller zerg?

I'm starting to think the OP doesn't understand the term zerg.

He thinks a group of 4 is a zerg?

/sigh

A Zerg is any amount of players on one. That is the definition - it is about numbers not skill. If there are rewards for better armor that make people 'LEET' then the game will get zergy - that is what happened in Rift.

 

Get used to it. As I said, unless it is defined PvP, it will have zergs - period.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  Azzras

Novice Member

Joined: 2/10/14
Posts: 422

One Shot, Two Kills.

3/05/14 3:38:51 PM#95
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by Azzras
Originally posted by Velocinox
Originally posted by Satarious
Originally posted by MikeB
Originally posted by Velocinox

Tower zerg, open field zerg, scouting for their zerg...

 

Does that about sum it up?

 

Sell me.

No.

As MikeB said, No.  There are plenty of youtube videos out there that show small groups taking out stragglers.

 

So a smaller zerg?

I'm starting to think the OP doesn't understand the term zerg.

He thinks a group of 4 is a zerg?

/sigh

A Zerg is any amount of players on one. That is the definition - it is about numbers not skill. If there are rewards for better armor that make people 'LEET' then the game will get zergy - that is what happened in Rift.

 

Get used to it. As I said, unless it is defined PvP, it will have zergs - period.

Another that doesn't understand the term or its origins.

/sigh again.

  Velocinox

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/15/06
Posts: 664

 
OP  3/05/14 8:12:52 PM#96
Originally posted by Azzras
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by Azzras
Originally posted by Velocinox
Originally posted by Satarious
Originally posted by MikeB
Originally posted by Velocinox

Tower zerg, open field zerg, scouting for their zerg...

 

Does that about sum it up?

 

Sell me.

No.

As MikeB said, No.  There are plenty of youtube videos out there that show small groups taking out stragglers.

 

So a smaller zerg?

I'm starting to think the OP doesn't understand the term zerg.

He thinks a group of 4 is a zerg?

/sigh

A Zerg is any amount of players on one. That is the definition - it is about numbers not skill. If there are rewards for better armor that make people 'LEET' then the game will get zergy - that is what happened in Rift.

 

Get used to it. As I said, unless it is defined PvP, it will have zergs - period.

Another that doesn't understand the term or its origins.

/sigh again.

 

The source was starcraft zergling rushes where masses of units overran fewer units. However, the CONCEPT has been around for much longer. It's just the word is more recognizable to gamers than military terminology. It has been expressed in the military world as force concentration. If you read the link in the very first paragraph you see a term I used earlier in the thread force multiplication via the use of geological features and fortifications.

 

Now if you're playing the starcraft series, then you can stick to the strict definition of 'zerg', but since we are obviously not, then it expands to the greater definition that all gamers have come to recognize, that of larger force beats smaller force if all other factors are equal.

 

As to my intent, the post was offered as a question, not a statement of fact. How so many are reacting to a question about a game in a gaming forum like I am hurting their little sister or kicking their dog amazes me. Isn't it possible to discuss a game without becoming emotional and defensive? Did they make the game? Then why are they defending it like it is a family member? (Or would they even defend a family member this strongly...)

 

Now that you're up to speed, I hope you can contribute to the thread productively, rather than attempting to derail it through the unrelated minutia of starcraft trivia. (unless of course that is precisely your intent)

 

That all being said and cleared up, here's a quote from Nietzsche for you:

“The snake which cannot cast its skin has to die. As well the minds which are prevented from changing their opinions; they cease to be mind.”

 

 

'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.


No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than the one you've become familiar with.


How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.

  whisperwynd

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/22/06
Posts: 1426

Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the priviledge to do so as well.

3/05/14 8:18:18 PM#97
Originally posted by Velocinox

 

As to my intent, the post was offered as a question, not a statement of fact. How so many are reacting to a question about a game in a gaming forum like I am hurting their little sister or kicking their dog amazes me. Isn't it possible to discuss a game without becoming emotional and defensive? Did they make the game? Then why are they defending it like it is a family member? (Or would they even defend a family member this strongly...)

 

 

Sadly not here it seems. Humour it also seems to be frowned upon, wayyy too serious sometimes.  

  drakaena

Novice Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 508

3/05/14 8:29:43 PM#98
@Satarious
No offense to you (such is the saying before someone tells you something unflattering lol) but I recall you specifically defending GW2 WvW in the same manner before it went live.
  Lord_Athon

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/02/09
Posts: 165

Homer: You maybe a smart girl Lisa, but you don't know much about hurt people's feelings

3/05/14 8:39:43 PM#99

at the moment i'm almost tried to say that non said word in this post, ..... ahhh ZERG

what the matter with you guys? and pvp is all about what? people trying to give the best of them selfs in a game. So?!

I'm a bit worried when a game starts from the zero begining, i've done some start ups as most of you, and years ago was the comunity, then was the rush to cap lvl. If we try to play a bit, woud just be great. I'm really hoping this is a great game, with some bugs off, wiil one of the best i tried. Hope will be to you all.

  spizz

Novice Member

Joined: 7/11/04
Posts: 2585

3/05/14 9:57:27 PM#100
Originally posted by Velocinox

Tower zerg, open field zerg, scouting for their zerg...

 

Does that about sum it up?

 

Sell me.

 

Just get a beta key for the next beta weekend and find out.

 

The game offers all kind of pvp gameplay from 1v1, small to medium group pvp and mass pvp.

 

 

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