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Elder Scrolls Online

Elder Scrolls Online 

General Discussion  » Add-on Free Cyrodiil

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138 posts found
  indef

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/12
Posts: 374

3/05/14 10:59:27 AM#61
Originally posted by berenim
We just do not know what Zenimax thought. Hell there are enough inventors who regret theior inventions in retrospective, because they were misused in their eyes. Also we do not know who is the majority of players, now who is the vocal minority. But the heat of discussion shows the sides wont be so far away in numbers...

Is there any person who can translate what the hell this guy just said?

  BizkitNL

Old School

Joined: 12/29/02
Posts: 2333

"Free to play, pay to win""

3/05/14 11:06:31 AM#62
Originally posted by indef
Originally posted by berenim
We just do not know what Zenimax thought. Hell there are enough inventors who regret theior inventions in retrospective, because they were misused in their eyes. Also we do not know who is the majority of players, now who is the vocal minority. But the heat of discussion shows the sides wont be so far away in numbers...

Is there any person who can translate what the hell this guy just said?

Imagine Mr. Miyagi saying that post out loud. It suddenly....makes sense. Holy crap!

Feel like trying Planetside 2? Get a headstart with the starter kit!

  Azoth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/08/04
Posts: 626

3/05/14 11:08:03 AM#63
Originally posted by indef
Originally posted by berenim
We just do not know what Zenimax thought. Hell there are enough inventors who regret theior inventions in retrospective, because they were misused in their eyes. Also we do not know who is the majority of players, now who is the vocal minority. But the heat of discussion shows the sides wont be so far away in numbers...

Is there any person who can translate what the hell this guy just said?

That making mods available might or might not be a good idea ? Pretty straight forward to me ...

  shawnsum

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/04/14
Posts: 14

3/05/14 11:14:11 AM#64
Originally posted by Azoth

It is not totally blindly tho, there are animations and they can be countered. I guess it does become a matter of preferences. You either get a more visceral fight with visual indicators. Or you get it written for you to read.

Long casting stuff, you might not know exactly what is coming your way but you should know that it's most likely nothing good. With the pvp mod you see what your current target is trowing your way, but by focusing on that bar you are missing what the guy next to him is doing.

I like the combat in Elder Scrolls game exactly for that, I don't read the stuff on a bar, I look at my opponents, it makes it a whole lot more immersive and fun to me. It's not the way I would play most other mmo as they aren't designed around it.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, and it's actually nice to be able to debate with someone in a calm manner rather then starting a flame war. /Salute to you sir.

Everything you are saying has a very valid point and it's articulated well, but what you are explaining I believe would take a long long time for someone to truly master. Imagine the amount of time it would take to play through each of the roles, and then learn the builds associated with them to know the exact spell animations/attacks you need to be cautious of.

It's quite daunting if you really think about it, and let's face it, people are "use" to seeing what abilities the people they are fighting are using, they are use to seeing their opponents exact HP, resource and any other relevant stats/information.

With that being said when addons start popping up for this game (like they already have) that offer these things I am talking about, along with the devs supporting it all..this is what you get.

It will be standard to have the addons that provide this relevant information and their will always be the argument of "omg noob is using addons, not fair, screw this game, etc, etc, etc"

  cura

Tipster

Joined: 7/24/04
Posts: 975

3/05/14 11:35:11 AM#65
Everytime someone tries to make something different, medicority crawls out of its basement and drags game back to the cesspool... Im so tired with this.
  User Deleted
3/05/14 11:40:20 AM#66
Originally posted by shawnsum
Originally posted by Azoth

It is not totally blindly tho, there are animations and they can be countered. I guess it does become a matter of preferences. You either get a more visceral fight with visual indicators. Or you get it written for you to read.

Long casting stuff, you might not know exactly what is coming your way but you should know that it's most likely nothing good. With the pvp mod you see what your current target is trowing your way, but by focusing on that bar you are missing what the guy next to him is doing.

I like the combat in Elder Scrolls game exactly for that, I don't read the stuff on a bar, I look at my opponents, it makes it a whole lot more immersive and fun to me. It's not the way I would play most other mmo as they aren't designed around it.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, and it's actually nice to be able to debate with someone in a calm manner rather then starting a flame war. /Salute to you sir.

Everything you are saying has a very valid point and it's articulated well, but what you are explaining I believe would take a long long time for someone to truly master. Imagine the amount of time it would take to play through each of the roles, and then learn the builds associated with them to know the exact spell animations/attacks you need to be cautious of.

It's quite daunting if you really think about it, and let's face it, people are "use" to seeing what abilities the people they are fighting are using, they are use to seeing their opponents exact HP, resource and any other relevant stats/information.

With that being said when addons start popping up for this game (like they already have) that offer these things I am talking about, along with the devs supporting it all..this is what you get.

It will be standard to have the addons that provide this relevant information and their will always be the argument of "omg noob is using addons, not fair, screw this game, etc, etc, etc"

It's not the noobs you should be worried about using these addons.

  Azoth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/08/04
Posts: 626

3/05/14 11:40:35 AM#67
Originally posted by shawnsum
Originally posted by Azoth

It is not totally blindly tho, there are animations and they can be countered. I guess it does become a matter of preferences. You either get a more visceral fight with visual indicators. Or you get it written for you to read.

Long casting stuff, you might not know exactly what is coming your way but you should know that it's most likely nothing good. With the pvp mod you see what your current target is trowing your way, but by focusing on that bar you are missing what the guy next to him is doing.

I like the combat in Elder Scrolls game exactly for that, I don't read the stuff on a bar, I look at my opponents, it makes it a whole lot more immersive and fun to me. It's not the way I would play most other mmo as they aren't designed around it.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, and it's actually nice to be able to debate with someone in a calm manner rather then starting a flame war. /Salute to you sir.

Everything you are saying has a very valid point and it's articulated well, but what you are explaining I believe would take a long long time for someone to truly master. Imagine the amount of time it would take to play through each of the roles, and then learn the builds associated with them to know the exact spell animations/attacks you need to be cautious of.

It's quite daunting if you really think about it, and let's face it, people are "use" to seeing what abilities the people they are fighting are using, they are use to seeing their opponents exact HP, resource and any other relevant stats/information.

With that being said when addons start popping up for this game (like they already have) that offer these things I am talking about, along with the devs supporting it all..this is what you get.

It will be standard to have the addons that provide this relevant information and their will always be the argument of "omg noob is using addons, not fair, screw this game, etc, etc, etc"

I agree that it would take a long time, but that is exactly what I am looking for. I been playing rpgs for 20 years and mmorpg since UO. UO taught me tactical 1v1 PVP, EQ taught me patience  and DAoC taught me group pvp.

For now the basic UI is perfect for pve, help make it more challenging not being told exactly when to block or when to interrupt and so making it more fun to me.

The pvp on the other hand is a different beast. If nothing change, I will download all those mods, just to be on equal ground with others using em. Not because it adds anything I want but because I don't like artificial disadvantage. I think it makes it all more bland and turn it into any other game out there. People will mod the game till it looks exactly like the other games they were playing before.

I just would hate for it to affect the way I like to play pve, which won't happen till devs design encounters that require more info than what is given with the basic UI.

 

  ShrewdDuck

Novice Member

Joined: 1/15/13
Posts: 21

3/05/14 11:55:41 AM#68

It is not unfair if everyone has access to them.

un·fair

??n?fe(?)r/

1.not based on or behaving according to the principles of equality and justice.

 

 
  Notimeforbs

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/28/13
Posts: 346

3/05/14 12:16:12 PM#69
Originally posted by Massive9
Originally posted by Notimeforbs
Originally posted by david31741

I don't have a bias either way.

 

I can't see  add-on's giving any real time combat advantage.  All the real time combat info that you need to process is available via game graphics.

The combat add-ons I saw were more distracting than anything.

 

All I can see them as being good for is enhancement to gameplay such as map/crafting/gear etc.

Also, Zeni could block any add-on it choose.

Power Gamers and hardcore PvPers/PvEers wouldn't use them if they didn't offer an advantage.  They'll try to sell you on the idea that these add-ons do nothing... but... if they didn't do anything... then they wouldn't want them so bad.

After you point that out, they'll go to the default argument "You don't have to use them if you don't want to."  Which is blatantly false.  If you want to participate in PvP... you have to have these add-ons, or you will be at an automatic disadvantage.  So the idea of choice in this matter is actually a ruse.

Their last line of defense is to just call you stupid.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  A game needs to have a hard UI ruleset that does not allow modifications.  Either put the information in the stock UI or don't.  It hardly matters either way.  What you can't have is a system where everyone is using something different.  It creates an automatic issue with game balance.  There is simply no way to refute this no matter how hard anyone tries.

 

1. Thats nothing more than your opinion that a game should have a hard coded UI. I would have no problem at all with a hard coded UI if the developers were capable of giving us a UI that at the very least, met the requirements for the majority of cornerstone themepark functionality.

 

ESO's stock UI is a prime example of one of the worst MMORPG interfaces ever imo.

 

Want to know how close your target is to death? Just guess.

Want to know how much action bar your target has? Just guess.

Want to know if you OR your target have active buffs / debuffs? Just guess.

Want to see your targets cast bar so you can get the interupt timed correctly? Just guess.

 

Brilliant.

 

2. The arguement "No one if forcing you to use them" is obviously not false. You are NOT being FORCED to use anything or do anything you don't choose to.

 

I would use some addons but do you really think I can be bothered to go around scrutinising every mod released because I am FORCED to use it? Fuck no, there will be a few mods I use and loads I do not bother with.

 

Did you read that bit? I will CHOOSE not you use loads of the available mods and I will accept the fact that making that decision may put me at a slight disadvantage in the occasional, very situationall scenario....

 

So tell me again if mods FORCE everyone to use them....why am I not being FORCED to use all of them? Why has little old me been able to retain a semblence of free will in regard to this matter? We are FORCED to use them all are we not?

 

Could it be because there is no FORCED about it? Only your own personal CHOICES.

 

The fact of the matter is, you want to CHOOSE what is to you the moral high ground and not use them, but at the same time you WANT the benefits they bring to the gaming experience. You just dont want to ADMIT you want the benefits so you use rediculous sensationalism like saying you are FORCED to do this and that....really?

 

So is there like, literally someone with a gun to your head threatening you well being if you do not use mods in a video game?

 

No?.....Oh so you are not being forced to use addons then, right? Thanks for clarifying.

 

It is not an opinion that they should have a hard coded UI.  I've already shown very simply why add-ons in a multiplayer game ruins balance.

Not only is this an opinion of yours, by your own admission, but it is also an opinion that TESO UI should meet current MMO conventions in any way.  These add-ons are unnecessary.  We can tell that they are unnecessary, because Zenimax clearly didn't put them into the game in the first place.  They left that up to the player discretion as something they might could have if they wanted it.  Unfortunately, I've already shown to you how this "choice" is a ruse - you don't have a choice.

Most people run away when they are close to death.

Most people who are out of energy stop using abilities.

Knowing whether or not you have an active buff could be helpful.  It's something that should be in the stock UI.  But since it isn't... then everyone is in the same boat of not knowing.  Moreover, you don't need that sort of information about your target.  You only want it.

You can time the interrupt well enough by watching the animation - which is sort of the point.

If you want to compete in PvP you WILL use the add-ons... or you will die.  No one will choose death - even out of principle.  The reason they will die, is because these add-ons create an obvious advantage.  This advantage makes the choice of not using them, completely out of the equation.  Thus... you don't have a choice.  You can play these fancy word games and scenarios all you want, but the choice is a ruse - like I've already said.

 

[mod edit]
  Notimeforbs

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/28/13
Posts: 346

3/05/14 12:22:09 PM#70
Originally posted by Laughing-man
Originally posted by gonewild
Yeah i agree that addons must be dissabled by zenimax

Considering there is a 'mod' button on the UI ready to go for launch, and that ZOS has said they are aware at how important a modding community is to an online game...

Never gunna happen.

It's not important at all, really.  People will play a good game whether it has mod support or not.

  Notimeforbs

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/28/13
Posts: 346

3/05/14 12:23:52 PM#71
Originally posted by Rattenmann

I will not pay 15 bucks a month or play ESO at all if they DISALLOW addons in any area (including pvp).

 

Why? I don't care if they give advantages. I hate the stock UI. I want more Info. Hell at least give me a freaking BUFF TIMER for MYSELF for gods sake. The UI is lacking so many baseline things that i am unwilling to play a game like this without addons. I do like the pvp tho, so ill be a sub paying guy for a while at least (if addons don't change haha).

 

Stop crying about "advantages". Look at the stock UI and tell me that is fine for a MMO.

I think it works pretty well.

Arguing that more information should be a part of the stock UI is one thing.  I could support that argument.  I will not, however, support an argument of any kind for add-ons and modifications.  Ever.

  Notimeforbs

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/28/13
Posts: 346

3/05/14 12:28:48 PM#72
Originally posted by Massive9
Originally posted by Averum

Ultimately the addon argument has been made. It has been shown that there is enough interest in an addon free area for it to be on the table.

The original post is more about having the ruleset than it is arguing about addons all over again. If you want to do that you should probably be in the existing thread. So you are not repeating yourself again.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/405809/Will-ADDONS-kill-this-game-.html

Back on the topic of addon free pvp campaigns. The browser for these campaigns appears to have a section on rules and Zenmax themselves have spoken on alternative rulesets in the past.

Also there are already around 26 pvp campaigns - so the argument that is will fragment the player base to much is a tad off base. They already plan to fragment us. They already plan to have some form of rulesets. I will include a screenshot of the browser below and a link to the reddit topic on this.

http://redd.it/1zkgde   (70% like)

 

Ultimately the arguement for addons does not need to be made or justified.

 

Addon support via a comprehensive API and .LUA scripting has always been in the plan. It has been a stated design goal from the outset and (the remarkably poor default UI aside) the devs have certainly delivered on this commitment.

 

Those demanding that addons are removed or have some form of "Opt in" mechanism are actually the ones who need to make an arguement for thier personal desires as it is those that run in contradiction to that devs original vision for the game.

 

/justsayin 

The argument against add-ons has been made, and it is pretty comprehensive.

When you allow add-ons, you create imbalance in the playerbase.

The option to use add-ons, is not an option, as without them, you are at an automatic disadvantage.  Thus, making the choice to not use them hurts you.  Meaning you only have one correct choice to make.

No one can refute this.  Try all you want.  You can't.

  Notimeforbs

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/28/13
Posts: 346

3/05/14 12:38:37 PM#73
Originally posted by ShrewdDuck

It is not unfair if everyone has access to them.

un·fair

??n?fe(?)r/

1.not based on or behaving according to the principles of equality and justice.

 

 

It is also not unfair if no one has access to them.

  udon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/23/07
Posts: 1744

3/05/14 12:44:03 PM#74

The easy fix to this is have the API filter out data on players from different factions.  It leaves add-ons in the game for those that want to use them but doesn't allow for the abuse in PVP which is where the real concern seems to be anyways.  The only question is will Zenimax do this?

I like the idea of add-on's in the game but agree that if you let PVP players get access to other faction character data they will abuse it in very unique and creative ways.

  Notimeforbs

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/28/13
Posts: 346

3/05/14 12:48:25 PM#75
Originally posted by mbrodie
Originally posted by Averum
Originally posted by Massive9
Originally posted by Averum
Originally posted by tmann50
So, basically...since a few of you don't want add-ons the vast majority who always use them should be screwed over to please you...that would be stupid in the extreme....

Statistically speaking with the sample sizes we are getting it is far more than a few currently.

However, what has been proposed does not screw addon users over in any way. Ultimately it would likely cut down on people attacking addons in the first place. Addons would be allowed in pve and they would be allowed on the majority of the pvp campaigns. People are simply asking for a selection of the pvp campaigns to be addon free.

This meets the goals of both groups.

The addon makers and addon users get to have what they desire and use it as they and Zenimax see fit.

The people not interested in addons can ignore them in pve and play the pvp campaign with the special ruleset.

Edit -

This idea was brought up on the TC forums and the creator of Tamriel Foundry Combat (the addon being attacked the most) was on board with the idea.

 

 

Sounds like a fine solution :) I would be more than happy with that even though I would only be using a small amount of addons anyway

 

I do not think it will placate the anti addon crowd though. The only outcome they will seem to accept is the officially permitted use of a privacy  addon that hides all API information relating to your character from everyone. This addon is apparently currently being tested and apparently works very well.

 

Coming from someone with a little bit of background in these things. I think that are pulling a fast one and that particular addon is just a bluff, it doesn't exist.

 

i have to agree, especially since there is no hook to block information... it would actually be a hack and that would be against TOS

 

i'm glad massive9 and averum get it though.. that addons wont break or kill the game and no one is being forced to use them, i spend hours arguing in the will addons kill this game thread... with one of the posters whom has popped up in here with his opinion and then tried to get me an infraction on the site, saying i was being "trolling and other things" to which after review from mmorpg.com they removed the warning, as they could see that he was being just as condescending and dismissive of my argument while trying to tell me i was being one sided and unopen to suggestion.

 

which is what i find funny, the anti-addon crowd is so narrow minded, but quick to judge and label peple who arent again addons.

Oh yeah... that was me.

I haven't said anything different in this thread, and I have managed to stay out of arguments like we had.  I wonder why.

Also, I'm not closed minded.  I actually like the idea of a different campaign setting.  You should have brought it up before.

  Notimeforbs

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/28/13
Posts: 346

3/05/14 12:50:03 PM#76
Originally posted by udon

The easy fix to this is have the API filter out data on players from different factions.  It leaves add-ons in the game for those that want to use them but doesn't allow for the abuse in PVP which is where the real concern seems to be anyways.  The only question is will Zenimax do this?

I like the idea of add-on's in the game but agree that if you let PVP players get access to other faction character data they will abuse it in very unique and creative ways.

While I would normally say that add-ons in general are a train-wreck waiting to happen in any manner, I suspect this could be something of a compromise.

  SpottyGekko

Elite Member

Joined: 9/26/04
Posts: 3426

3/05/14 12:53:10 PM#77
 

Much is being made in this thread about the fact that the devs provide this info via the API, therefore using it in all ways imaginable must have been their intention.

Not neccessarily.

 

It's amazing how the devs become "all-knowing visionaries" when it suits the argument. It's highly likely that they did not foresee all the consequences of the info passed via the API. It's also possible that they may decide some of the possible uses and consequences are not what they intended.

 

Mistakes are often made. Corrections are possible. Nerfs happen for a reason.

  Hellidol

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/14/12
Posts: 394

3/05/14 1:22:28 PM#78
Originally posted by Xreeon

I do NOT  want to have to download third party add-ons and looking at the PvP beta  videos it's clear they offer a significant, and unfair advantage.  

How about few Add-On disabled Cyrodiil to fight in - can this be done? 

not sure what you mean.

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 5168

3/05/14 1:25:41 PM#79
Originally posted by SpottyGekko
 

Much is being made in this thread about the fact that the devs provide this info via the API, therefore using it in all ways imaginable must have been their intention.

Not neccessarily.

It's amazing how the devs become "all-knowing visionaries" when it suits the argument. It's highly likely that they did not foresee all the consequences of the info passed via the API. It's also possible that they may decide some of the possible uses and consequences are not what they intended.

Mistakes are often made. Corrections are possible. Nerfs happen for a reason.

Very good point, and it is actually MOST OFTEN the case.

In talking w/ devs, most of them can describe numerous situations where they implemented something without knowing before-hand what the full results would be. This happens almost always. And yet the general gaming public never seems to catch on to this fact.

When developing a game, it is often the case that you can only ever truly understand how a decision will affect the game, once it's actually in the game and being used. Even then, sometimes there are massive discrepancies once you open that same feature up to a much wider audience. There's a limit to how much we can predict.

While the devs have opened this game up to Addons, they have ALSO stated that they want the combat to be focused on what is going on on-screen. What the characters are doing. Many of these addons (the combat mod specifically, though) go completely counter to this vision for the game. It has you staring at UI bars and buff timers INSTEAD of the actual combat. Furthermore, as others have pointed out, it provides a significant advantage to those who have it. Heck even in beta most people are using it, and that number is growing.

The difference between knowing exactly what resources you're enemy is working with, and being nearly completely blind to this, is a HUGE advantage. Many PvP games are even built around acquiring such advantages (MOBAs for example). It is completely false to pretend like that isn't going to be an issue.

  User Deleted
3/05/14 1:41:40 PM#80
Originally posted by Hellidol
Originally posted by Xreeon

I do NOT  want to have to download third party add-ons and looking at the PvP beta  videos it's clear they offer a significant, and unfair advantage.  

How about few Add-On disabled Cyrodiil to fight in - can this be done? 

not sure what you mean.

 Best solution is to use the rule sets already in the campaigns.  ZOS has already anticipated for this discussion and taken appropriate steps that they can have Campaigns with different rule sets.  So we should just accept that we will have options to play on add on free servers.  Also potential other game sets may arise, something similar to capture the flag (Elder Scrolls) where everyone has to pour into the Imperial City and try to fight their way to scrolls (Daedric Titans and all) and get them back to one of your keeps and the campaign timer is much shorter.... crap, screw the add-on conversations, I think we need to talk about this.

 

Edit: Started thread to discuss non-add on rule sets.  Will rephrase, the thread I created was for any discussion on rulesets that did NOT include whether or not we want add-ons.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/6223568/thread/406921#6223568

 

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