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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why is it so hard to get PvP with PvE or vice versa to work?

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219 posts found
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19849

3/03/14 11:30:01 AM#21
Originally posted by Ender4

It isn't hard, the majority just don't want it. The devs of recent games seem to think that some keep based RvR zone satisfies everyone and they couldn't possibly be more wrong. Every release in the past 5 years would have better if they just added a single PvP server, even if they didn't do ANYTHING at all to balance it. GW2 would be so much better with a PvP server, I might still be playing it.

Anyway, keep your eye out for EQN when it comes out in 2015 or 2016, they are going to have normal PvP and not this silly PvP in a box style that everyone has gone with now.

I agree. I think the majority just want separate pvp games. That is why LoL and WoT are so popular.

 

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10646

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

3/03/14 12:06:10 PM#22
Originally posted by Flyte27
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by Flyte27
Originally posted by karat76
UOs system did not really work that well. It was pretty much a gankers orgy during the weekends. Open world pvp and the behavior displayed within is nothing more than a virtual prison yard. The system that worked best for me was DAoC I could pve in safe areas and if I had the urge to pvp I could go hunt in the frontier but at least it wasn't a free for all. Without some type of rule system in place too many people are little more than beasts that wear pants. The riots after sporting events, natural disasters and other events prove this.

I think some people like this style of play as it is exciting.  It's something you can't experience in the real world and is probably not far off what life was like once upon a time.  I'm not a big fan as I find PvE more relaxing and more about adventuring with friends, but it seems unfair to say people who want to role play that kind of experience are bad and it shouldn't happen.  It's just a game after all.  It's better it happens in game then in real life.

 

There is no once upon a time where the majority of the population engaged in random murder sprees.  FFA PvP games are completely unique environments with a unique set of rules that do not now, nor have they ever existed in human history. 

 

Perhaps murder is a bit overboard.  Either way it's just a game.  People kill things in games all the time.  Most people on this board seem to only want to kill things.  They have no interest in things like figuring out puzzles, roleplaying, or interacting.  I do know when there is no fear of law or fear of god to keep people in place people end up doing a lot of bad things.  Games like Ultima Online just prove my point.

 

They are just games, but retribution doesn't exist to curb PvP.  "Retribution" is just a positive reinforcer within the context of most OW PvP games*.  Player behavior has much more to do with the accepted social rules for a given environment.  In FFA PvP games, "rampant killing" is the accepted rule, so players engage in it much more than they would in PvE servers/games.  To many or possibly most PvE players, "zero killing" is the accepted rule.  This is one of the disconnects between PvE and PvP players.  They both operate under a different set of social rules.  There doesn't exist a level of OW PvP that is an acceptable level to mostly PvE players.  Any retribution or controls in place don't matter because "zero killing" is the socially accepted level of PvP.  On the flip side. deterrents to PvP are not part of the socially accepted rule set for PvP players.  Engaging in PvP should cause more PvP to happen, and the server's rule sets should support this**.  It would be nonsensical to have a server where OW PvP was "always on" but at the same time "always punished" except for a very select group of people.

 

A good example of PvEvP players on a PvP server operating using their own set of social rules would be an RP PvP server.  It was even brought up in a thread about RP PvP servers.  Why don't role players engage in PvP on PvP servers?  Because their social rule set determines when they engage in PvP, even though the server's rule set says that PvP is "Always On".  This is very much an exception though.

 

Outside of role players, most players can't choose social rule sets, and even if they could, they would have no guarantee that everyone else will choose the appropriate social rule set, so players choose based on the server rule sets.  Specifically whether PvP is "On" or "Off". 

 

This is why PvP and PvE players tend to not get along on forums***.  They have different social rules, and there is little or no common ground.  Their available options highlight the divide between them so even though they can all easily "live and let live", they don't.  The little warning light that there are people who are different from them right over "there" keeps going off and flashed in front of their eyes.

 

**

 

* A response has been provoked, a player's red status can be used to brag, etc. 

** Players who turn "red" are more likely to be attacked in PvP.  Clan or guild retribution causes more PvP to occur, not less.  And so on.

*** If they are on the same servers, it's a rare event.  The edge cases where the PvE player complains about the PvP server or the PvP player complains about the PvE server are going to be rare because the players do have a choice.

 

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Ender4

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2096

3/03/14 12:24:04 PM#23

Here is the core difference in my eyes between the two types of players.

The PvE player tends to see random PvP that interrupts their PvE content as something that reduces their fun. The PvE player gets jumped a few times while alone and says this is dumb and logs off.

The PvP player tends to see random PvP that interrupts their PvE content as something that enhances their fun. The PvP player gets jumped a few times while alone and goes and finds someone to group with so they are part of a protected group dynamic. They just made a lasting new social connection with the person who jumped them and the people they grouped with.

The best nights of PvE I have ever experienced all included an element of PvP adding additional conflict to the situation.

Those two statements don't play together very well. I don't want a pure PvP game, if I wanted that I would go play one of the many non MMO PvP style games out there like a LoL, FPS etc. I want to experience PvE content in a dynamic world where every player I see could be an ally or enemy and I don't know which it is until I interact with them. I want to have people I actively dislike becuase of their actions in the past as well as those who I have bonded with over the common goal of defeating enemy players.

  hallucigenocide

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/18/14
Posts: 294

3/03/14 1:05:16 PM#24

this has been discussed way too many times tbh.. while the majority of the pve community wants nothing to do with pvp.. a big chunk of the pvp community enjoys both.

worst examples of this are in WoW where pve only players join pvp servers just to play with more skilled players during end game. because they themselves found their peers to be quite bad when it comes to mobility and situational awareness etc.(some boss fights are'nt very nice against tunnel vision play)

that in turn killed the pvp servers and now they're pretty much in the same format as the pve servers.

kek

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19849

3/03/14 1:09:15 PM#25
Originally posted by hallucigenocide

this has been discussed way too many times tbh.. while the majority of the pve community wants nothing to do with pvp.. a big chunk of the pvp community enjoys both.

worst examples of this are in WoW where pve only players join pvp servers just to play with more skilled players during end game. because they themselves found their peers to be quite bad when it comes to mobility and situational awareness etc.(some boss fights are'nt very nice against tunnel vision play)

that in turn killed the pvp servers and now they're pretty much in the same format as the pve servers.

But there is no reason why a player have to do pve and pvp in the same game.

  hallucigenocide

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/18/14
Posts: 294

3/03/14 1:32:35 PM#26
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by hallucigenocide

this has been discussed way too many times tbh.. while the majority of the pve community wants nothing to do with pvp.. a big chunk of the pvp community enjoys both.

worst examples of this are in WoW where pve only players join pvp servers just to play with more skilled players during end game. because they themselves found their peers to be quite bad when it comes to mobility and situational awareness etc.(some boss fights are'nt very nice against tunnel vision play)

that in turn killed the pvp servers and now they're pretty much in the same format as the pve servers.

But there is no reason why a player have to do pve and pvp in the same game.

ofcourse not... that's why there used to be separate servers for both but the pve players tend to creep onto the pvp servers and demand that they do not have to partake in pvp.

kek

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10646

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

3/03/14 1:49:41 PM#27
Originally posted by hallucigenocide
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by hallucigenocide

this has been discussed way too many times tbh.. while the majority of the pve community wants nothing to do with pvp.. a big chunk of the pvp community enjoys both.

worst examples of this are in WoW where pve only players join pvp servers just to play with more skilled players during end game. because they themselves found their peers to be quite bad when it comes to mobility and situational awareness etc.(some boss fights are'nt very nice against tunnel vision play)

that in turn killed the pvp servers and now they're pretty much in the same format as the pve servers.

But there is no reason why a player have to do pve and pvp in the same game.

ofcourse not... that's why there used to be separate servers for both but the pve players tend to creep onto the pvp servers and demand that they do not have to partake in pvp.

 

How in the world did you end up with such a distorted view of reality?

 

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Man_of_Leisure

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/14
Posts: 35

3/03/14 1:55:09 PM#28
Originally posted by Ender4

I don't want a pure PvP game, if I wanted that I would go play one of the many non MMO PvP style games out there like a LoL, FPS etc. I want to experience PvE content in a dynamic world where every player I see could be an ally or enemy and I don't know which it is until I interact with them. I want to have people I actively dislike becuase of their actions in the past as well as those who I have bonded with over the common goal of defeating enemy players.

 

This pretty much exactly. The random element of a pvp encounter here and there makes a game far more fun. On the other hand there have to be consequences to keep these games from turning into gank fests.

To me the ideal situation is where there are mechanisms in place that true criminals are treated like criminals. Guards attack you, trading with other players affects their criminal flags, etc.

There should be no safe haven for those that do not offer safe haven. And I think this is where most games get it wrong.

  hallucigenocide

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/18/14
Posts: 294

3/03/14 1:58:45 PM#29
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by hallucigenocide
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by hallucigenocide

this has been discussed way too many times tbh.. while the majority of the pve community wants nothing to do with pvp.. a big chunk of the pvp community enjoys both.

worst examples of this are in WoW where pve only players join pvp servers just to play with more skilled players during end game. because they themselves found their peers to be quite bad when it comes to mobility and situational awareness etc.(some boss fights are'nt very nice against tunnel vision play)

that in turn killed the pvp servers and now they're pretty much in the same format as the pve servers.

But there is no reason why a player have to do pve and pvp in the same game.

ofcourse not... that's why there used to be separate servers for both but the pve players tend to creep onto the pvp servers and demand that they do not have to partake in pvp.

 

How in the world did you end up with such a distorted view of reality?

 

from experience.. play games that have both and browse their forums. you'll see

kek

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19849

3/03/14 2:13:38 PM#30
Originally posted by hallucigenocide
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by hallucigenocide

this has been discussed way too many times tbh.. while the majority of the pve community wants nothing to do with pvp.. a big chunk of the pvp community enjoys both.

worst examples of this are in WoW where pve only players join pvp servers just to play with more skilled players during end game. because they themselves found their peers to be quite bad when it comes to mobility and situational awareness etc.(some boss fights are'nt very nice against tunnel vision play)

that in turn killed the pvp servers and now they're pretty much in the same format as the pve servers.

But there is no reason why a player have to do pve and pvp in the same game.

ofcourse not... that's why there used to be separate servers for both but the pve players tend to creep onto the pvp servers and demand that they do not have to partake in pvp.

uh? Where do you get that?

I am primary a pve player. Why would i go to a pvp server in the first place? It is not like there is a lack of pve games to play.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19849

3/03/14 2:15:58 PM#31
Originally posted by Man_of_Leisure
Originally posted by Ender4

I don't want a pure PvP game, if I wanted that I would go play one of the many non MMO PvP style games out there like a LoL, FPS etc. I want to experience PvE content in a dynamic world where every player I see could be an ally or enemy and I don't know which it is until I interact with them. I want to have people I actively dislike becuase of their actions in the past as well as those who I have bonded with over the common goal of defeating enemy players.

 

This pretty much exactly. The random element of a pvp encounter here and there makes a game far more fun. On the other hand there have to be consequences to keep these games from turning into gank fests.

To me the ideal situation is where there are mechanisms in place that true criminals are treated like criminals. Guards attack you, trading with other players affects their criminal flags, etc.

There should be no safe haven for those that do not offer safe haven. And I think this is where most games get it wrong.

Fun is subjective. Games are not wrong .. they just don't cater to you. For me, a random pvp encounter make the game LESS fun. Hence, i play mostly pve only games, and if i want pvp, i go to pvp only games.

 

  Man_of_Leisure

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/14
Posts: 35

3/03/14 2:29:12 PM#32
Originally posted by nariusseldon

Hence, i play mostly pve only games, and if i want pvp, i go to pvp only games.

 

Awesome story, but this thread is about the combination of the two. Maybe you were confused since you're unable to understand a different playstyle co-existing with your own.

  hallucigenocide

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/18/14
Posts: 294

3/03/14 2:30:03 PM#33
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by hallucigenocide
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by hallucigenocide

this has been discussed way too many times tbh.. while the majority of the pve community wants nothing to do with pvp.. a big chunk of the pvp community enjoys both.

worst examples of this are in WoW where pve only players join pvp servers just to play with more skilled players during end game. because they themselves found their peers to be quite bad when it comes to mobility and situational awareness etc.(some boss fights are'nt very nice against tunnel vision play)

that in turn killed the pvp servers and now they're pretty much in the same format as the pve servers.

But there is no reason why a player have to do pve and pvp in the same game.

ofcourse not... that's why there used to be separate servers for both but the pve players tend to creep onto the pvp servers and demand that they do not have to partake in pvp.

uh? Where do you get that?

I am primary a pve player. Why would i go to a pvp server in the first place? It is not like there is a lack of pve games to play.

did i say everyone does? no. but the fact is that alot of you pve players( ones that are serious about their endgame) seek out pvp players because they are more comfortable in combat that requires situational awareness. i've been told this many times by them. that is why they join pvp servers and then go on complaining when pvp occurs.  

kek

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

3/03/14 2:37:43 PM#34
Originally posted by Lazzaro

 


Originally posted by k11keeper
I have to agree with sanchi on this. More then balancing issues people just don't like getting ganked. It is never fun to be out doing what you planned to do just to have some guy come up and 1 or 2 shot you. Only to run back and have that same person do it over and over. 

 

That is why I really liked the karma system in L2 it sort of kept that to a minimum while still having that thrill of it being a possibility. The cool thing was if someone went red people gathered together to hunt him down and you would get your revenge. Honestly if that game wasn't the grindiness of the grindys (and full of bots) I think that sort of system would have caught on and there would be more open world PvP games these days. 


 


UO did this with PK'ers. If you where red you couldn't go into towns or have people rez you unless they were red too.

There are systems that would allow for people who do PK to have consequences for their actions.

You miss the point.  People don't want to be targets at all.  They do not want to be involved in ganking at all.  They do not want to have to watch their backs at all.  Just because there is some system in place to punish people who gank down the line doesn't change the fact that people had to get ganked in the first place for them to get to that point.

Ganking sucks.  People hate it.  That's the point.

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  centkin

Elite Member

Joined: 10/01/10
Posts: 808

3/03/14 2:43:29 PM#35

PVP doesnt get along with PVE because PVEers become the most juicy easiest targets of PVP players.  Many PVP players love the idea of the easy kill which is what a PVE player is.  The PVE players then end up getting killed 20 times for every time they kill a PVP player and constantly get set back as well.  Soooo... the PVE players become very unhappy at the joint relationship.

 

 

  Apraxis

Elite Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1471

3/03/14 3:14:39 PM#36

The very first design lesson for everyone designing a game, or even overall designing a product is, that you can't please everyone.

So if your target audience are pve only player just design a pve only game. If your target audience are pvp only player just design a pvp only game. If your target audience are mixed player interested in both, design your game that way.

The problem is, that almost all "big companies" want to please as many audiences as possible, because their reasoning is making as much money as possible.. and the result is more often than not, that they fuck it up and will upset either one or more audiences.

And a lot of pvp players(or mixed players) are just fed with those attached pvp light experiences called battlegrounds, arenas or pvp servers with just pvp toggle on. And yeap.. even the seperate 3 faction zone is just a cheap solution.. although it is at least the best of those.

And about the mixed solution.. you have really to differentiate here. What kind of pve do those people like, and what kind of pvp do those people like? Because in all honestly there are a bunch of different pve and pvp tastes out there.

But there are really enough players out there to specialize and deliver different focused games to different core audiences.. maybe not a 200 million+ budget for every single audience, but more than enough.. especially as some audiences don't have a game, and withit you don't have much competition.

  Reklaw

Elite Member

Joined: 1/07/06
Posts: 6165

The adult I am takes care of most things real life. However my inner-child is a GAMER!!

3/03/14 3:17:29 PM#37
Originally posted by centkin

PVP doesnt get along with PVE because PVEers become the most juicy easiest targets of PVP players.  Many PVP players love the idea of the easy kill which is what a PVE player is.  The PVE players then end up getting killed 20 times for every time they kill a PVP player and constantly get set back as well.  Soooo... the PVE players become very unhappy at the joint relationship.

 

 

Yeah it's a shame that it seems that the majority into PVP isn't really up to the challenge. They demand open world PVP/PVE game with full loot. But seem afraid if such a game has a flag system.

To me a flag system would actually let those who are into PVP do just that atleast then it's challenging which in my opinion is what a true PVP'r wants. While there should be "war-zones"  not instanced where a player get's flagged by the game instead of choice just by entering that zone. For others there should be option to flag themself for WPVP. To unflag I feel there should be a timer, let's say it takes 6 hours real time to become neutral. According to reading many PVP oriented topics that should be a no issue for the true PVP player.

A PVE player can attack a PVP player only at it's same level and should get him instant flagged and armor of a PVP player should be dominant against PVE gear, that way that PVE attack on a PVP player can not be exploited. Changing PVE to PVP should give a minute timer to change gear.

Let's say this game is sandbox, so we have player city's. Same unflag rule of 6 hours. Think before going at War. Building the city should be done both flagged PVP for those looking for that challenge against other players or done mainly in PVE.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19849

3/03/14 4:12:15 PM#38
Originally posted by Man_of_Leisure
Originally posted by nariusseldon

Hence, i play mostly pve only games, and if i want pvp, i go to pvp only games.

 

Awesome story, but this thread is about the combination of the two. Maybe you were confused since you're unable to understand a different playstyle co-existing with your own.

Nah .. you are confused. The title of the topic is "Why is it so hard to get PvP with PvE or vice versa to work?"

My playstyle is one solution ... don't get them to work together. Problem solved.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19849

3/03/14 4:14:10 PM#39
Originally posted by Apraxis

The problem is, that almost all "big companies" want to please as many audiences as possible, because their reasoning is making as much money as possible.. and the result is more often than not, that they fuck it up and will upset either one or more audiences.

Not blizz ...

D3 - very much aimed for the hack-n-slash crowd

Hearthstone - casual CCG crowd

Heroes of the Storm - MOBA

... they did try to please many in WOW .. but at least that is not all they do. And certainly companies that make LoL and WoT (which are big now) are not aiming to please everyone.

 

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10646

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

3/03/14 5:54:09 PM#40
Originally posted by hallucigenocide
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by hallucigenocide
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by hallucigenocide

this has been discussed way too many times tbh.. while the majority of the pve community wants nothing to do with pvp.. a big chunk of the pvp community enjoys both.

worst examples of this are in WoW where pve only players join pvp servers just to play with more skilled players during end game. because they themselves found their peers to be quite bad when it comes to mobility and situational awareness etc.(some boss fights are'nt very nice against tunnel vision play)

that in turn killed the pvp servers and now they're pretty much in the same format as the pve servers.

But there is no reason why a player have to do pve and pvp in the same game.

ofcourse not... that's why there used to be separate servers for both but the pve players tend to creep onto the pvp servers and demand that they do not have to partake in pvp.

 

How in the world did you end up with such a distorted view of reality?

 

from experience.. play games that have both and browse their forums. you'll see

 

I've been playing the games for over ten years, including WoW.  I have seen many things, but PvE players on PvP servers complaining about PvP is not one of them.  I've never seen the PvP player complaining about the PvE content on PvE servers either.  Not even here, where all the complainers end up.  What I have seen, repeatedly, are people who say that PvP players complain about PvE servers and people who say that PvE players complain about PvP servers.  But the actual players never show up.  The one other thing I've seen are people who want a PvE version of a PvP game, like Darkfall or a FFA PvP version of a primarily PvE game like WoW.

 

But the PvE/PvP player complaining about the opposite mechanics, when other options are available?  Never.  They are like Bigfoot.  People say they've seen them, but they never actually appear.

 

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

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