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General Discussion  » ESO needs to explain stuff better ingame!

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85 posts found
  MikeB

MMORPG.com Community Manager

Joined: 5/27/09
Posts: 5579

3/03/14 2:41:56 PM#41
Originally posted by alterfenix
Originally posted by MikeB
Originally posted by Elikal

Why can I not trade? (Because you need to ungroup!)

How can I leave Cyrodiil?

How do I use a repair kit?

Do I get gear decay from PVP death?

How do Synergies work? (Most people I met didn’t even KNOW they exist!)

 

 

Most of this is, in fact, explained in game. :)

I don't think the trading was working properly this weekend, so I'm fairly sure you don't need to ungroup to trade.

Cyrodiil's tutorial explains the wayshrine to exit, use of repair kits (even has you actually USE a repair kit on a siege weapon), and a bunch more. I don't recall on gear decay, but it may have been explained. If not, it would be pretty easy to figure out through play.

If you press F1 in game there is a whole section full of tutorials and information on most aspects of the game.

Where do you get this tutorial stuff for Cyrodiil? Because last time I check I've got only info how to move fast between keeps. And it ended there.

There is a "Welcome to Cyrodiil" quest that starts up when you first enter. If you actually follow it and do the training (you can skip the training), you will learn most of what you need to know.

Michael "MikeB" Bitton
Community Manager
Twitter: @eMikeB

  Elikal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 8130

“No path is darker then when your eyes are shut.” -Flemeth

 
OP  3/03/14 3:10:15 PM#42

Well then those explanations are BAD, because the same 20 questions arise every 10 seconds in chat.

If you play WOW, everything is self explanatory, because it is either simple (not easy, if you can see the difference), and self explanatory. ESO is cryptic, often making things different for the sake of, and needs *better* explanations. I regard myself a relatively dedicated gamer, experienced in dozens of MMOs, and if I didn't find it in a natural way that means, the explanation stuff was done bad.

Just look at the chat ingame. It shows quite vividly something is amiss in the state of Denmark.. err Tamriel.

 

In part I blame the HORRIBLE console UI. That nefarious "wheel" thing is bad enough. The locked mouse as well. So many cumbersome things. Some many times just making it different "because".

 

Ask yourself, honestly: do you think the average gamer, MMO or otherwise, is a very patient person? With a long attention span? Many MMO gamers try things out once or twice, and then leave it. That may be sad, but it remains true. I used to write user manuals as a job, and the rule of thumb was: write it is clear, that even an idiot would understand it. That is how good explanations work. They come to you. You don't have to seek them. Let the GAME be demanding, not the rulebook!

People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  timidobserver

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/15/14
Posts: 248

3/03/14 3:16:20 PM#43

I actually like the way ESO doesn't hold my hand like so many other MMOs do. It doesn't start spamming me with tips and hint popups the moment I login. It expects you to figure some things out on your own or ask someone.

It sucks that there are so many gamers like the OP that want flashing messages and boxes everywhere so that they don't have to figure anything out. 

  Allacore69

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/25/12
Posts: 878

3/03/14 3:16:55 PM#44


Originally posted by Elikal

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus Its oldfashioned MMO, try and figure out for yourself..   next month we will see an explosion of youtube guides... So why spending money on ingame tutorials
You seriously think that is good advise for a 200-300 million dollar expensive Triple A MMO? To "let people figure out"?


Fishing was the only thing I could not figure out. Everything else is self explanatory.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 18241

3/03/14 3:17:05 PM#45
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

Its oldfashioned MMO, try and figure out for yourself..

 

next month we will see an explosion of youtube guides... So why spending money on ingame tutorials

hmmmm, I think there is a difference between learning what one can do in a game and learning the hard game mechanics.

I'm all for dropping a person into the world and have them learn what happens when they go into that cave or learn that if they experiment with adding a certain component then  ...

but things like "how you group, how you open the map, how you trade" etc should be explained.

  free2play

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/13/05
Posts: 1873

3/03/14 3:17:08 PM#46
Originally posted by Elikal
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

Its oldfashioned MMO, try and figure out for yourself..

 

next month we will see an explosion of youtube guides... So why spending money on ingame tutorials

You seriously think that is good advise for a 200-300 million dollar expensive Triple A MMO? To "let people figure out"?

Actually I kind of do think that's really good advice. I don't remember puzzles in Tomb Raider 3 or original Resident Evil as being the bane of those games. I seem to remember that being the reason we played them and liked them. MMO's have a wiki to tell you how to blink, breathe and fart and it's really one of the biggest downfalls.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 5252

3/03/14 3:26:23 PM#47
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

Its oldfashioned MMO, try and figure out for yourself..

 

next month we will see an explosion of youtube guides... So why spending money on ingame tutorials

hmmmm, I think there is a difference between learning what one can do in a game and learning the hard game mechanics.

I'm all for dropping a person into the world and have them learn what happens when they go into that cave or learn that if they experiment with adding a certain component then  ...

but things like "how you group, how you open the map, how you trade" etc should be explained.

And they typically are. Whenever you do something for the first time, you get a pop-up black background tutorial text on the bottom right of the screen or dead center on the screen in the case of crafting and other things. Same thing happens the first time you open the group interface, Campaign interface, buy a horse, open the stable, go to an open dungeon the first time, use your first sky shard, etc.

 

Of course, anyone who just dismisses the pop-up without reading it might have a hard time figuring it out... so then they spam chat with questions.

 

I see all that chat spam as just a symptom of the ADD MOBA generation trying to play a real MMO.

  User Deleted
3/03/14 3:32:52 PM#48
Originally posted by Elikal

Well then those explanations are BAD, because the same 20 questions arise every 10 seconds in chat.

If you play WOW, everything is self explanatory, because it is either simple (not easy, if you can see the difference), and self explanatory. ESO is cryptic, often making things different for the sake of, and needs *better* explanations. I regard myself a relatively dedicated gamer, experienced in dozens of MMOs, and if I didn't find it in a natural way that means, the explanation stuff was done bad.

Just look at the chat ingame. It shows quite vividly something is amiss in the state of Denmark.. err Tamriel.

 

In part I blame the HORRIBLE console UI. That nefarious "wheel" thing is bad enough. The locked mouse as well. So many cumbersome things. Some many times just making it different "because".

 

Ask yourself, honestly: do you think the average gamer, MMO or otherwise, is a very patient person? With a long attention span? Many MMO gamers try things out once or twice, and then leave it. That may be sad, but it remains true. I used to write user manuals as a job, and the rule of thumb was: write it is clear, that even an idiot would understand it. That is how good explanations work. They come to you. You don't have to seek them. Let the GAME be demanding, not the rulebook!

I'm honestly confused by the vehemence of your diatribe.  A lot of people were patient enough to reply to you, to show you that in-game information exists, and if that isn't enough you can ask in chat or seek outside sources.  In my mind, the people of this forum satisfied your question and concerns..yet you disregard all that and continue to rage.  Having seen your post history, I see there is a pattern. 

 

Perhaps it's a matter of ESO not being a good match for you?  If you find yourself frustrated and angry and bringing it to the forums on a continual basis, maybe that's a sign to find a game that you actually enjoy.  Game's are supposed to be a place to escape and have fun, and it seems like this one isn't working out for you.

 

 

  Reklaw

Elite Member

Joined: 1/07/06
Posts: 6357

The adult I am takes care of most things real life. However my inner-child is a GAMER!!

3/03/14 3:37:47 PM#49
Originally posted by Elikal

Well then those explanations are BAD, because the same 20 questions arise every 10 seconds in chat.

If you play WOW, everything is self explanatory, because it is either simple (not easy, if you can see the difference), and self explanatory. ESO is cryptic, often making things different for the sake of, and needs *better* explanations. I regard myself a relatively dedicated gamer, experienced in dozens of MMOs, and if I didn't find it in a natural way that means, the explanation stuff was done bad.

Just look at the chat ingame. It shows quite vividly something is amiss in the state of Denmark.. err Tamriel.

 

In part I blame the HORRIBLE console UI. That nefarious "wheel" thing is bad enough. The locked mouse as well. So many cumbersome things. Some many times just making it different "because".

 

Ask yourself, honestly: do you think the average gamer, MMO or otherwise, is a very patient person? With a long attention span? Many MMO gamers try things out once or twice, and then leave it. That may be sad, but it remains true. I used to write user manuals as a job, and the rule of thumb was: write it is clear, that even an idiot would understand it. That is how good explanations work. They come to you. You don't have to seek them. Let the GAME be demanding, not the rulebook!

Those "20 question in chat" as you call them makes me really wonder why people don't really pay attention to what they are playing.

Though I partially agree on your last part but I also feel I will be beter off when that unpatient player leave this genre.

 

  Dilweed

Novice Member

Joined: 8/17/04
Posts: 229

3/03/14 3:39:50 PM#50
Originally posted by Reklaw
Originally posted by Elikal

Well then those explanations are BAD, because the same 20 questions arise every 10 seconds in chat.

If you play WOW, everything is self explanatory, because it is either simple (not easy, if you can see the difference), and self explanatory. ESO is cryptic, often making things different for the sake of, and needs *better* explanations. I regard myself a relatively dedicated gamer, experienced in dozens of MMOs, and if I didn't find it in a natural way that means, the explanation stuff was done bad.

Just look at the chat ingame. It shows quite vividly something is amiss in the state of Denmark.. err Tamriel.

 

In part I blame the HORRIBLE console UI. That nefarious "wheel" thing is bad enough. The locked mouse as well. So many cumbersome things. Some many times just making it different "because".

 

Ask yourself, honestly: do you think the average gamer, MMO or otherwise, is a very patient person? With a long attention span? Many MMO gamers try things out once or twice, and then leave it. That may be sad, but it remains true. I used to write user manuals as a job, and the rule of thumb was: write it is clear, that even an idiot would understand it. That is how good explanations work. They come to you. You don't have to seek them. Let the GAME be demanding, not the rulebook!

Those "20 question in chat" as you call them makes me really wonder why people don't really pay attention to what they are playing.

Though I partially agree on your last part but I also feel I will be beter off when that unpatient player leave this genre.

 

1 Million people play a game

20 people ask the same question

It surely must be the game, not the people...

  Bannuk

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/11/06
Posts: 260

3/03/14 4:00:11 PM#51
Originally posted by Reham34
Originally posted by Elikal
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

Its oldfashioned MMO, try and figure out for yourself..

 

next month we will see an explosion of youtube guides... So why spending money on ingame tutorials

You seriously think that is good advise for a 200-300 million dollar expensive Triple A MMO? To "let people figure out"?

Well it doesn't matter because if the game held your hand like you want it to others would cry it's too hand holding.  

Where did you get the $200-300 million number ?

i think it is a good thing for company because instead of holding your hand you will need to TAKE TIME and learn it.  

I am personally glad I have to figure some stuff out.  It's refreshing to not be treated like an 8 year old for a change.  To each there own I guess.

  DaveyCole

Novice Member

Joined: 2/11/14
Posts: 84

3/03/14 4:01:13 PM#52

If the game contained no tutorials then I would accept the counterpoint that it is difficult by design, and that self-discovery of crafting methods and resource extraction are a part of the games overall intent.

 

The problem is that the game does contain tutorials and that people are not understanding them (barring those who simply do not choose to read). If these tutorials are not detailed enough to encompass the entire process to a degree that a majority of people can understand, then either they have not validated their presence in the game, or the crafting system is over-engineered.

 

The complexity and discovery of crafting in the game is supposed to stem from multiple racial designs, numerous enhancements, and special crafting stations. It is not supposed to overwhelm players at its base of introduction.

 

If you, the person who is reading this could understand crafting from the included tutorials, this whole observation isn't for you. Obviously if you understood it then you are fine. But, the world does not revolve around one player in an MMO and obviously there were quite a number of people in beta that did not understand various aspects of crafting.

  Bannuk

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/11/06
Posts: 260

3/03/14 4:10:37 PM#53
Originally posted by Elikal

I found over the 3 beta weekends I participated both myself and a lot of my fellow players remained at odds over a whole lot of things. Many of my frustrations over ESO just came from not knowing how stuff functions or misunderstanding it.

The entire crafting was a mess to me. I never found it you need 10 pieces of any material to forge them into mats without asking in chat. Or another example: would it be so difficult to have a tool typ on runes and glyphs how they work? Like the fact you have to right click a piece of gear to insert a glyph! Sometimes it didn’t even work, and I never understood if it was a bug, or if I did something wrong. Or whether or not you can remove glyphs and if yes how. Or that people can currently NOT go into the same story instance. People like me literally spent HOURS trying to get fellow players into the same story instance, for 2 days I simply thought I was too dumb, until by random chance of a conversation I found it, it was not intended at all. Or how armor works. Like, at all! In other MMos or RPGs – or even Skyrim – I am used to a very different mechanic. Here, after 3 weekends I still barely understand how armor works and most of it I still dont get.

 

I could make a really LONG list about such issues, but especially since ESO makes a LOT of things so very different, I find the ingame explanations about virtually everything in ESO poor and horrible. Things need a LOT more tooltips. You can tell how big of an issue this is, because you ALWAYS see the same questions over and over.

Why can I not trade? (Because you need to ungroup!)

How can I leave Cyrodiil?

How do I use a repair kit?

Do I get gear decay from PVP death?

How do Synergies work? (Most people I met didn’t even KNOW they exist!)

 

 

The list could be prolongued endless. So if anyone here has some contact to ZOS, PLEASE let them know ESO seriously needs WAAAAY better ingame infos! Otherwise a lot of people will ragequit, simply because they don’t understand the game, and that would be really a pity.

 

I have one simple question.  Did you ever play any Elder Scrolls title?  If you had you would have known the answers to some of your questions/issues.  I am sorry that you get upset at having to figuring things out on your own though.  I personally have always enjoyed the sense of accomplishment when I figure it out on my own. 

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 16579

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

3/03/14 4:11:33 PM#54
Originally posted by DaveyCole

If the game contained no tutorials then I would accept the counterpoint that it is difficult by design, and that self-discovery of crafting methods and resource extraction are a part of the games overall intent.

 

The problem is that the game does contain tutorials and that people are not understanding them (barring those who simply do not choose to read). If these tutorials are not detailed enough to encompass the entire process to a degree that a majority of people can understand, then either they have not validated their presence in the game, or the crafting system is over-engineered.

 

The complexity and discovery of crafting in the game is supposed to stem from multiple racial designs, numerous enhancements, and special crafting stations. It is not supposed to overwhelm players at its base of introduction.

 

If you, the person who is reading this could understand crafting from the included tutorials, this whole observation isn't for you. Obviously if you understood it then you are fine. But, the world does not revolve around one player in an MMO and obviously there were quite a number of people in beta that did not understand various aspects of crafting.

That's the hard part about trying to broaden such a discussion outside of the individual. There were thousands playing this game over the weekend as well as during the last test. Elikal is the first I've seen bring such a gripe to the forums, not many in this thread are agreeing it was hard to understand, the only people really agreeing are those talking about what if's like your post, so who's the majority here?

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  Arglebargle

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/13/07
Posts: 1302

3/03/14 4:14:10 PM#55
Basic stuff should be explained simply.   If too many people aren't getting it, it behooves the developers to draw attention to it better.  You want to get people enjoying your game.   There's  reasonable medium ranges between elitist complexity, and on-rails one button clicking.

If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  rwyan

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/24/03
Posts: 454

3/03/14 4:21:51 PM#56

I personally didn't find crafting overwhelming.  I would like to say bad things about anyone who did (or at least bash them on the head a few times) but I can refrain from that.  The only reason why I played this weekend was to educate myself on the crafting system.  So maybe that makes a difference as my intent was to deliberately investigate the system as opposed to experiencing it in passing.

 

I ran to my first crafting station - clothing - and ran through the GUI.  I saw that I could make cloth and leather armor.  In addition, I could also make Nord and High Elf styles (I had found the high elf style book in the opening, tutorial zones).  I saw that recipes literally comprised of one material... Jute.  I also noticed that adding more jute to a recipe increased an item's level.

 

I then went off and tend some quests, explored, played with a few weapons I had in addition to gathering every single node I found.  After getting some raw jute, I returned to the crafting stations to attempt some armor.  I played around with the GUI in attempt to figure out how to actually refine the resource.  Once I had found my way, I was prompted because I had too little raw jute to extract.  So off I went in search of more...

 

I returned later and successfully made a number of pieces of gear.  I replicated that knowledge against a few other crafts successfully... except I did notice alchemy, provisioning and enchanting have slightly different rules.

 

Alchemy appeared to require experimentation and trial and error in order to learn recipes.  Provisioning appeared to require you to learn recipes from items acquired through drops (experimentation may have been possible but I honestly didn't try).  Enchanting also appears to require some trial and error and memorization as well.

 

As I mentioned, my intent this weekend was to dabble with crafting.  So maybe I was willing to put a little more time getting acquainted with it's GUI.  Outside of maybe enchanting and alchemy, there isn't much to the system.  I didn't get to play with researching but I did have some failed attempts at improving items. 

 

All of this knowledge (and I don't think I understand the whole system yet) was acquired simply by playing the game.  I did consult the in-game manual once or twice to clarify some things (such as researching as I didn't understand how that feature worked).

 

Do players really expect to learn everything there is to know about a game in one weekend? I think that is a bit much.  Everything I ever knew about EverQuest wasn't learned in a couple days, a few weeks, or even a few months.  There were some aspects that I didn't fully understand until at least a year after its release (and that was part of the joy of it, always something new to learn and understand).

 

Sometimes I see complaints here about ESO or just about any other game, and I instantly scratch my head.  I don't understand what some of ya'll really want or are getting at.  Heck, I ran into a player this weekend who raged in zone chat just because of a bugged quest in a on character that will be inevitably be wiped in a game that hasn't even been released yet.

  Myrdynn

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/25/07
Posts: 1507

3/03/14 4:25:12 PM#57

one thing I was thrown off by, as someone who never played an ES game, I made my character a Dark Elf, leveled him up some then went to craft, and had no idea what racial stone I needed to by.  I had to ask, hey I am a Dark Elf, what am I.

I still dont know exactly, I know there is Altmer, Bosmer, and Dunmer, but it would be nice if during creation when you select Dark Elf is said Dark Elf (Dunmer)

I have submitted it in my feedback, not really ground breaking either way, but a simple solution

 

  Digna

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/19/05
Posts: 2018

The pen is mightier than the sword if the sword is very short, and the pen is very sharp.

3/03/14 4:29:39 PM#58

I'm used to trial and error. I may not put my hand on the stove to see if it's hot but I have no objection to clicking on things, mousing over or just plain old mashing a button in a game. Particularly in an game where there are no real consequences (okay when I made something accidentally I used up one racial type stone....but so what) and even MORE particularly in a BETA. What can happen? Everything gets wiped in the end. Try stuff! Whats the harm?

For me there was only thing that was not intuitive/logical (which was discussed many times over the weekend at least where I was playing). I figured it out duding the 1st weekend with crafting but it didn't make 'sense' that you have to go to the extract icon to create ingots. Extract from items, sure but you smelt ore. I suppose you might  be able to reach for the concept that you are extracting the essence of the ore into ingots but its a reach.

The only other minor thing which was due to me not paying attention (thus my fault) was making a level 6 (I think) piece of armor and then switching to the next piece along the line. I made the item and then realized that the level reverted to the lowest level of the item so instead of crafting a level 6 legs I ended up crafting a level 1. Lesson learned.

People want easy but sometimes they come to expect it. Think outside the box  and if you have to...explore a bit.

 

Google it for goodness sake....

 

  Arglebargle

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/13/07
Posts: 1302

3/03/14 4:31:26 PM#59
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by DaveyCole

 

.... not many in this thread are agreeing it was hard to understand, the only people really agreeing are those talking about what if's like your post, so who's the majority here?

If you went by the majority here, some old school fantasy sandbox would be tops in the genre, and have 12  million active subscribers....

If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  Torgrim

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 12/15/05
Posts: 2179

3/03/14 4:43:38 PM#60

I learned everything I needed to know about crafting by experiment and asking fellow crafters around me in /say chat.

 

If it's not broken, you are not innovating.

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