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General Discussion  » Will ADD-ONS kill this game?

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352 posts found
  Eladi

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/23/06
Posts: 1051

2/28/14 3:05:51 AM#241

Personaly I dont like DPS addons and sutch, Yet I dont realy care if others use them.  

I never give a damn about anyone shouting for more dps anyway... dont like my work..fine i go play with someone else :P 

 

The UI kinda needs addons to make it more user friendly.  

A small invt bar where you can drop useable items. 

Emotions have no UI page at all currently, a simple clickable list that you can enable and disable would be nice. 

stuff like that can give users a better experience when playing the game. 

 

on the tropic that it gives A unfair advantage.. I cant see how it can give any unfair advantage at all. sure it could have a  boss spawn timer but ..who cares.. the world is shared , not based on team damage. 

it might have a dps meter.. but thats just a addon that destroys fun for most people, some like it, most avoid guilds who use them and the often pesky foul screaming raging "leaders" 

Loot addons are not a issue,  they are just for the player and can't steal from others. 

 

  GuyClinch

Novice Member

Joined: 9/28/13
Posts: 475

2/28/14 3:29:32 AM#242

add ons are terrible. Zenimax really needs to rethink allowing them. Add ons make people better players - forcing everyone else to get add ons or fall behind. Then your game ends up like add on management with tons of stuff on your screen.

I realize lots of people will want them. But sometimes the people are just wrong.

  Saxx0n

Tipster

Joined: 10/15/10
Posts: 817

2/28/14 6:32:52 AM#243
Originally posted by Saxx0n

Here is a direct quote from a programmer at a major ESO site discussing being able to access the api info referring to the "exact" pvp mod that has been mentioned here.

Out of respect I will not link this site or poster but it is not that hard to find.

" As a seasoned macro dev , I can tell you that if you give me info on a enemy player via api or even a graphic, I can hotspot that graphic and auto fire skills when needed. As it stands now I have totally owned because of this and sent videos to Z to help them see the need to tone back the enemy data that is exposed."

 

How do you feel about that pvp ui mod now?

 

 

The main issue are add-ons that will destroy ESO and here is the worst offender. A pvp cheat mod which has been even further altered by this person quoted above.

 

PVP is the endgame and without a strong endgame subs will vanish. Sub vanish I don't know where ESO will go.

 

I will not purchase until Zenimax communicates exactly what these add-ons are allowed to do and the scope of their use.

 

edit- Don't get me wrong I love add-ons and the mods that allow the freedom to customize your ESO experience are great but add-ons such as above destroy games permanently damaging them if allow to be used.

  cheyane

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/17/09
Posts: 2353

2/28/14 6:55:55 AM#244

This does not bode well for the game. My old friend from EQ and I are going to be playing this game but for now we will stick to PvE I guess.

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  Jyiiga

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/03/10
Posts: 1017

2/28/14 7:18:43 AM#245
Amazing how we all got along just fine in Asheron's Call, Dark Age of Camelot, Star Wars Galaxies (and others)... Without needing things like combat parsers. I still see way to much "you know what game" mentality.
  crasset15

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/12/12
Posts: 156

2/28/14 8:20:27 AM#246

Coming from TSW, I can say a DPS meter is absolutely necessary for endgame PvE. Most importantly, it helps compare my builds and tweak them to improve performance. Yeah, the most important thing about having a DPS meter isn't talking smack to everyone who has lower DPS than me, surprised?

The only time I will talk to a teammate about their low DPS, is when we wipe a boss repeatedly and the only reason we are wiping is because that person is doing low dps. And most of those discussions are friendly and contain a few suggestions. Only rarely it gets nasty when the person doing low dps is also acting arrogant. In a game like TSW, it is a common sight in endgame dungeons to see people in equal gear as me, doing 25-40% of my DPS. 

Not everyone is a 'clean' PvE player. There are a lot of freeloaders who will try to slip into a dungeon run that was clearly advertised for people who are higher geared than they are. Two ways to detect such people are inspecting their gear, or running a DPS meter. The worst situation is having a group with crappy performance and having absolutely no way of determining what the cause of it is.

  Azzras

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/10/14
Posts: 422

One Shot, Two Kills.

2/28/14 8:49:45 AM#247
Originally posted by Covet78
Originally posted by Jyiiga

People have become overly spoiled with addons and mods.They also like to point fingers and say the developers should add all of this to the base UI. Plenty of MMOs get along fine without them and pretty much all single player titles lack such features.

To me it looks like many players are just looking for an advantage over those around them. They want to see things others don't see. They want to be able to gauge every detail about other players character at a glance so they can pass judgement. They want to take shortcuts.

Hopefully there is a happy middle ground somewhere... because no player should be forced to keep up with dozens of mods/addon and yes you are forced. WOW progressed to the point where you would be denied entry into groups without certain addons, you would be crippled in pvp without certain addons. You would be gauged by your gear due to addons.

This is not the way any quality MMO should function.

I find it funny when people say 'dozens' of addon's In wow, a hardcore raider doing heroic content would use 2 for raiding. the other mods would be for UI if they so desired. 

Raiding mods in wow that most raid leaders wanted for a dps was DBM and a parser ex: recount.

that's it. just those two. That is far from dozens.

A lot of the other popular mods but by no means mandatory for heroic progression was healbot, unit frames like xpearl and shadoweduf. The threat mods like omen are not used anymore as there's no threat issues at all for tanks. The Dozens of mods someone may have maybe for modified UI. Like bagnon for their inventory (not needed in raiding), or one of many auction house mods.

2 mods .... the rest is fluff not needed. I myself used the two mods, recount and dbm for raiding. I did have other mods, but those were just for UI reasons like bartender and quartz and bagnon. Not used for killing anything.

2 mods....

 

Love how people keep saying dozens. You aren't the only one, but you and others like you sure love stretching the truth to suit your agenda.

To add to this, world first raiders do NOT use DBM because DBM doesn't have anything useful for them.  DBM is used by people who stand in the fire...DBM takes a while before it's updated for a new raid boss on Heroic difficulty.

Now people do use addons like Vudoo (sp), Grid, healbot, etc.  All those addons do is allow you to arrange the raid frames of players and maybe bind keys and create macros easier (I said easier because WoW supports macros and keybinds without any addons).

Really, I can't think of one addon that actually gives a top level player an advantage in WoW.  Most of the top level players, PvP and PvE only use damage meters and something to move their UI around with.  

Remember, the more addons you use, the less stable and responsive the game can become.

Anyway, can someone name an addon that gives a clear advantage in WoW for the top level players?

  deakon

Novice Member

Joined: 3/07/11
Posts: 588

2/28/14 9:06:29 AM#248
Originally posted by Notimeforbs
Originally posted by deakon
Originally posted by Notimeforbs
Originally posted by deakon
Originally posted by Notimeforbs
Originally posted by deakon
Originally posted by Slyther_Zero

Sounds like they will be going against why they're trying to make the game with allowing add-ons in the game. Just get rid of them all together I say.

The less UI the more immersive the game will feel.

Watch this video from a dev, where he talks about the UI.
Video Link

They announced a fully modable UI through lua addons at the same time they officially announced the game back in 2012, so they really aren't going against anything at all, this was always the plan and is likely what enabled them to make such a limited UI in the first place

 

You don't have to use the addons, the advantages they give are small, PvP wont be even sided 99% of the time anyway and only the more hardcore guilds will have them as a requirement

Bad ideas and conflicting philosophies are always bad and conflicting no matter when they are announced.

Having a moddable UI is a bad idea in an MMO - from day 1.

Having a philosophy that allows you to experience the actual game without a UI is automatically undermined by allowing someone to change the UI to provide them with more information.  It's a solid black and white conflict of interest.  You can't have it both ways and expect everything to be normal.  Not identifying this simple truth is ridiculous.  Defending it under any circumstance is even more ridiculous.

Fortunately, Zenimax is good about changing things people don't like or find stupid.  They've already done so with the lack of collision detection.  I'm pretty sure if enough people actually point out how ridiculous it is to presume add-ons won't change the game in a major way, they will hear it and fix it.  All it takes is for people who have understanding beyond their own motives to speak out about it.

You still don't have an argument.  There is nothing you can say that will change the fact that having the ability to change your UI so drastically, will create a huge difference in how the game can be played to the extent that people who have more onscreen... will have a clear black and white advantage.  There is simply nothing you can say that changes that.  It's as guaranteed as slapping a stranger in the face and knowing they'll have something angry to say in response, if not outright slap you back.  Arguing against it is just stupid.

Either make the UI have all this stuff on-screen to begin with... or don't.  Pick a side and stay there.  When you allow for both to happen simultaneously... you're going to have a world of problems.  But please... explain to everyone how that isn't the case.  And then we will again explain it to you how you are wrong.

 

I love the way you use phrases like "a clear black and white advantage" When in reality the advantage is negligible and situational, and in a game where there are going to built in advantages/disadvantages for most fights in pvp anyway due to the scale.

 

And you are right that the UI should have all this stuff built in as options, but as they don't they will NEED addons because the base UI is far too limited for a lot of players. It doesn't matter if you are OK with limitations that can gimp certain abilities/builds, or basic info like player stamina/magika levels, or even a basic combat log, there are many that those things are an issue for. If you haven't built these tools in game for launch you better make sure you allow the fans to fill those gaps (much like they do in all the single player tes games and other successful mmos) because as SWTOR has shown players wont wait around for you to do add it down the line

Since you believe that the advantages are negligible... then it won't matter if they aren't in the game.  Since they don't do anything for you anyway... then there is no harm if they just weren't in the game to begin with, and didn't give you the option to add them.  Which leads me back to my original point:

You don't need them.

<---the point
'

'

'

'

'

'

<------your head

 

Just went sailing right over there didn't it?

I didn't know you could draw.

I must have missed your point because I was too busy making mine.  I apologize.  How rude of me.  Explain to me again why you need a "negligible" advantage in this game.

 

No what you did was read my first line, couldn't argue with any of the actual points made in the rest of the post, so you latched onto the first line to shoehorn in a completely unrelated point.

Whether they give a negligible advantage or not is besides the point, the point is that the base UI is far too limited for a large portion of the mmo gaming population,its far more limited than UI's that have been completely ripped to shreds for being too limited by the mmo community, and you suggesting it will be fine this time because...well..... no other reason that you want it to be

  Jyiiga

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/03/10
Posts: 1017

2/28/14 9:43:28 AM#249

The longer the goes on the more I enjoy a few simple things.

Such as people trying to downplay this issue like it doesn't matter yet the thread has topped 4000 views, which is pretty huge for here.

Then I have my reddit entry where a discussion is going on about limiting what the api/addons can do and 66% have upvoted it.

So once more I feel like people are in favor of addons, but wish some of the api was closed. Several of the addon creators seem to be onboard with this as well.

  Notimeforbs

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/13
Posts: 297

2/28/14 1:28:01 PM#250
Originally posted by deakon
 

No what you did was read my first line, couldn't argue with any of the actual points made in the rest of the post, so you latched onto the first line to shoehorn in a completely unrelated point.

Whether they give a negligible advantage or not is besides the point, the point is that the base UI is far too limited for a large portion of the mmo gaming population,its far more limited than UI's that have been completely ripped to shreds for being too limited by the mmo community, and you suggesting it will be fine this time because...well..... no other reason that you want it to be

Yeah - I understood your point the first time.  All I said was "No... you don't need that."  All you've said in counterargument is "yes we do need it."  To which I then showed why you don't need it.

So... I don't know what you're complaining about me "missing the point."  If you can justify needing something, I promise you it is just as easy for me to justify not needing it.  It's easy - all I have to say is "You don't need it."  I understand you want these features.  But you don't need them.  If you needed them, they would have already been in the stock game - which they aren't - which is why I can say "You don't need them."  My advice to you in that scenario would be to learn to play, or play something else.  It's not that hard.

This is the point YOU are not getting - the problem has nothing to do with these features being in the game.  I don't care if they are in the game or not.  The problem is having multiple UI's with different features vs the stock UI being played in the same game.  You pretend like that doesn't matter with your "negligible" comments.  It does matter.  It matters quite a bit.  Which is why these features aren't "negligble".  If these features WERE "negligible" then you wouldn't want them so bad.  But since you insist they really are negligible, then we both agree - you don't need them.

I read everything you write.  I don't stick to just the first point to piss you off.  I spend so much time destroying your first point that I get tired of going over this same crap with you over and over again.

Here are your comments from above:

1.  You don't have to use the addons

   If you don't have to use them, then that means you don't need them.  If I don't need them - you don't need them.  And if you don't need them - then there is no point in having them in the game.  This should be end of story, but you don't seem to get it.

2.  the advantages they give are small

 This is the "negligible" argument all over again.  If they are really that small... then you can do without them, thus you don't need them.  But since we all know that they aren't that small, and that they make a huge deal - this information should either be in the game as stock or not at all.  Having half the community using them vs half the community not using them is what makes it an advantage in the first place.  And this is why you can't have this stuff as an add-on.  I don't know how plainer I can make this.

3.  PvP wont be even sided 99% of the time anyway

  So that's a good reason to allow pseudo-hacks?  Allowing add-ons isn't going to even the playing field.  It's going to make it worse because you have too many people using different UI set-ups.  Some people will be using the pseudo-hacks and macros, made affordable to them by the add-on itself.  I don't care how good you think you are... you can't compete against a macro without using one yourself.  People use these for a reason - and it isn't because macros are negligible.

If the numbers on the field are uneven, no amount of add-ons put in the game are going to alter that.

4.  only the more hardcore guilds will have them as a requirement

  Which this is somewhat of a personal major concern of mine, it's really not a concern to the bigger picture.

The bigger picture is this: the hardcore guilds are going to be better regardless.  Giving them access to this information (and everyone else) isn't going to change this.  The problem isn't that they have the information.  The problem is you have half the players using the stock UI, and the other half, not using it.  The problem is if you want to PvP - you have to put mods into your game if you want to be successful.  If you want to RAID, you have to use mods.  Not because you want to, but because the people who can't play without them force the devs to create content and balance passes based on them.  It will screw everything up.  It's happened so many times, in so many other games.

 

Lastly, I seem to remember you bringing up that SWTOR failed because it didn't have a customizable UI and didn't give combat information.  To this, you're just being silly.  SWTOR had a million other problems, the least of which was this issue.

Problems such as:

lack of end-game content; Ilos was totally unplayable and pointless; the "stories" weren't up to the Bioware standard; the world design was linear and uninspiring; PvP lagged like crazy because the engine wasn't designed to handle what it was being used for; "space combat" was a single player rail shooter... in an MMO; the PvP Expertise system was a total mess; crafting was completely useless; the classes were supposed to be "mirrored" on both factions, but because of animations, the Empire had slight non-negligible advantages to their classes; you could reach max level in 2 weeks and then realize that end-game was non existent; Open World PvP was non-existent because there was absolutely nothing to fight over or reward for winning; friggin'.... Huttball was the center of all PvP; *sigh*....

But no... SWTOR failed because you couldn't add a few more buttons on your screen and a combat log wasn't there.

Sure....

 

Did I miss anything?

  Deddmeat

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/20/10
Posts: 296

Not sure how I got K.A.E.S last PvP was CoD and UO lol

2/28/14 6:21:00 PM#251

Another reason was people complained about the feature where they had to go through dialouge with other players who wanted to read every bit of it when they didn't want to.

A feature that at launch they thought was ground breaking. Til they had to use it more than a few times ofcourse, then it was a pita and game-breaking ;-)

Another was limited choice in weapons, in that if you wanted to go double bladed lightsaber you were sent down 1 path. Which tended to suck when you'd been thinking of a pebble throwing (another sucky feature, they could have done better) jedi, wielding a double-bladed saber to find it was on a tree you didn't want use.

It's a decent game don't get me wrong but they could have done better if they'd made a few adjustments, myself i like reading the chat of the npc's

Since I don't use mods i never knew they weren't in SWTOR lol

  Leoric187

Novice Member

Joined: 2/24/04
Posts: 12

2/28/14 6:26:57 PM#252
Just waiting on official word about it. They are aware of outside concerns that FTC reveals player information that is felt to cause an advantage. Dozens of polls show near balance opinion about Addons. Unless you can get one poll for an appropriate % amount of players, you really can't go majority/minority. That only reflects those on one specific board.

I've watched the whole video w/ FTC running and have seen several times that it would be an advantage. Several interrupt timers as well as Stam/Magi Pool loss. at 15:00-15:40 the FTC user chases a fleeing target w/ low stamina. They do not recover over 27% and is defeated short time after. So we can go back and forth, in the end, it's up to Devs to decide.
  Deddmeat

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/20/10
Posts: 296

Not sure how I got K.A.E.S last PvP was CoD and UO lol

2/28/14 6:33:36 PM#253


Originally posted by Leoric187
Just waiting on official word about it. They are aware of outside concerns that FTC reveals player information that is felt to cause an advantage. Dozens of polls show near balance opinion about Addons. Unless you can get one poll for an appropriate % amount of players, you really can't go majority/minority. That only reflects those on one specific board.I've watched the whole video w/ FTC running and have seen several times that it would be an advantage. Several interrupt timers as well as Stam/Magi Pool loss. at 15:00-15:40 the FTC user chases a fleeing target w/ low stamina. They do not recover over 27% and is defeated short time after. So we can go back and forth, in the end, it's up to Devs to decide.

They have to factor in the HUGE amount of PB that don't read/watch anything on a game (lazy bstards) and just load up game, play, log off .. so opimion from them is never registered.

  seafirex

Elite Member

Joined: 12/08/06
Posts: 261

2/28/14 6:39:05 PM#254

I think the issue will be more in dungeons and raids where it will prevent people to access them because guilds or groups will kick you out for not using them or will be really nasty to the people not using them like dps meter etc,,, It was the same in WoW still his by the way.

They say the best players use them because they can manage there dps more efficiently everyone else are noobs.

This is what will prevent a lot of players to stay in the long run, if they all expect that you should have that or many other addon's there is in WoW, i can even bet right now that dps meter or recount will be 1 of the first addon to be introduce, then there will be a variation of the Deadly Boss mod, then Atlas Loot, Tidy plate etc.etc. Probably even a Arena mod like in WoW. 

But again it won't be a killer a start for those that don't use them already, But in the long run it could be a real problem, it will become again a second job game. I just hope the community will not force it on other players and not look down on those that will not use those addons.

  mbrodie

Elite Member

Joined: 5/15/04
Posts: 781

2/28/14 8:03:54 PM#255
Originally posted by Notimeforbs

Here are your comments from above:

1.  You don't have to use the addons

   If you don't have to use them, then that means you don't need them.  If I don't need them - you don't need them.  And if you don't need them - then there is no point in having them in the game.  This should be end of story, but you don't seem to get it.

i just wanted to bring a point to this. You dont have to use them does not mean you dont need them

 

1. Yes you can not use a combat parser and you dont need to use a combat parser, but i personally like to gauge my own damage and find out which builds i can get more damage out of etc, that doesnt make it wrong, nor does it make it bad not does it make it any less important to me then it is for people who dont want addons in game to not have addons. Just  because it hasnt come included in the stock game also does not mean i dont need it... in my opinion, the game is more enjoyable to me if i have a combat parser at my disposal to parse different builds and see what i can get out of what.

how does me having this, affect your playing experience?

2. You're right, i dont need an addon to tell me my Health, Magika and Stamina... but i also dont like how the stock version looks, so yes for my playing experience, again to be enjoyable to me i like the addon i have installed which modifies my own player frames to look different.

How does me having this, affect your playing experience?

 

3. No i dont need an addon to give me some minor data text information... but i like having it

How does me having this, affect your playing experience?

 

4. I have another addon to track multiple quests on my screen instead of one at a time.

How does me having this, affect your playing experience?

 

at the end of the day, the addons i'm using arent harming the game, arent harming you, arent giving me an unfair advantage and it comes down to QOL, why should your quality of life experience be better then mine just because you feel the game shouldnt have addons because they arent stock in the UI so you dont need them. whatever my UI looks like doesnt affect you in the slightest and also i forgot i have scrolling combat text... i guess that gives me a major advantage.

  deakon

Novice Member

Joined: 3/07/11
Posts: 588

2/28/14 8:27:21 PM#256

I've been watching a few pvp streams today and guess what the main complaint has been so far? That's right lack of Ui functionality/feedback

 

But we don't need addons....right guys?

 

/sarcasm

  mbrodie

Elite Member

Joined: 5/15/04
Posts: 781

2/28/14 8:39:56 PM#257
Originally posted by deakon

I've been watching a few pvp streams today and guess what the main complaint has been so far? That's right lack of Ui functionality/feedback

 

But we don't need addons....right guys?

 

/sarcasm

 

and the one addon that provides is is being condemned by the other half because it shows a players HP, magika and stamina... because knowing that is going to make you better at avoiding and using your abilities... knowing someone else has 1/4 magika left is definitley gonna win me the match... thats kind of silly logic... if there is actual interrupt timers... and i'm not talking about a cast bar.. but interrupt timers or something sure that sounds like a disadvantage... but i like knowing what dots i have left on a target and knowing how long they have left, i also like knowing how much HP said target has left so i know what ability to use next... it's crazy

  Leoric187

Novice Member

Joined: 2/24/04
Posts: 12

2/28/14 9:57:12 PM#258
OMG I love the defense "You don't have to use them" 
  wrightstuf

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/09
Posts: 711

2/28/14 10:04:21 PM#259
How in the world can ADD ONs kill a game? Cant think of a single MMO where they force them on you. Jeez, look at WoW. That game has the most  ADD ONs of any MMO by far, and it doesnt look like they killed that game.
  User Deleted
2/28/14 10:20:38 PM#260
Originally posted by deakon

 

But we don't need addons....right guys?

That is correct.  Not needed.   Those people don't need to play.  They have Wildstar.  Not everyone needs to be made happy;)

 

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