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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » SOE is heading in the direction of Eve (And that means open world PVP!)

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333 posts found
  Knytta

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/03/07
Posts: 319

2/15/14 9:18:26 AM#121
Originally posted by evilized
Originally posted by Knytta
Originally posted by Bidwood

I'm also expecting a "hybrid" world in the sense that some areas are "safer" than others. Like Eve with high-security zones where attacking and killing another player is suicide - but possible.

And zones on the 'frontier' which are totally unprotected. The best resources are there. And the only way to make

Forcing people to play a game exactly the way you want them to play is apparently very important to you.

That's exactly it though, Knytta... There is no forcing anybody to do anything in a sandbox, open pvp or not. All options are available in one package. You can pvp if you'd like or you can stick to PvE / crafting or just hanging out with friends and never have to worry about being attacked by another player.

 

Placing the best resources in game in PVP areas and then waxing poetically about all the things the PVE players have to do to get there is NOT forcing them to play the game as you want them to? Of course they can choose not to go there, or choose not to play the game at all.

There are more PVE players than PVP players, targeting a game to the smaller customer base is bad business and is not going to happen. The best you can hope for is flagging like SWG.

Smedley likes PVP and writes about what he likes, that does not mean that EQN will be that way.

 

 

Chi puo dir com'egli arde é in picciol fuoco.

He who can describe the flame does not burn.

Petrarca

  Bidwood

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 555

 
OP  2/15/14 1:15:08 PM#122
Originally posted by Knytta
Originally posted by evilized
Originally posted by Knytta
Originally posted by Bidwood

I'm also expecting a "hybrid" world in the sense that some areas are "safer" than others. Like Eve with high-security zones where attacking and killing another player is suicide - but possible.

And zones on the 'frontier' which are totally unprotected. The best resources are there. And the only way to make

Forcing people to play a game exactly the way you want them to play is apparently very important to you.

That's exactly it though, Knytta... There is no forcing anybody to do anything in a sandbox, open pvp or not. All options are available in one package. You can pvp if you'd like or you can stick to PvE / crafting or just hanging out with friends and never have to worry about being attacked by another player.

 

Placing the best resources in game in PVP areas and then waxing poetically about all the things the PVE players have to do to get there is NOT forcing them to play the game as you want them to? Of course they can choose not to go there, or choose not to play the game at all.

There are more PVE players than PVP players, targeting a game to the smaller customer base is bad business and is not going to happen. The best you can hope for is flagging like SWG.

Smedley likes PVP and writes about what he likes, that does not mean that EQN will be that way.

 

 

Smedley wasn't just writing about what he likes. He explicitly stated "Our belief at SOE is that it’s smarter to head in this direction now rather than waiting." right after talking about Eve Online and how it's a brilliantly executed system.

  syriinx

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/24/13
Posts: 827

2/15/14 1:28:56 PM#123
Originally posted by Bidwood

Smedley wasn't just writing about what he likes. He explicitly stated "Our belief at SOE is that it’s smarter to head in this direction now rather than waiting." right after talking about Eve Online and how it's a brilliantly executed system.

No one is ever going to take you seriously when you spout bullshit like this.  You either know you are spouting bullshit (thus trolling), or you are very poor at analyzing things.  You'll notice in the paragraph where he was talking about player driven content, he was talking about things like auction houses, storytelling tools, and player elections.  The only PvP thing he mentioned was battlegrounds.

In fact, the blog makes open world PvP seem less likely than before because he specifically mentioned battlegrounds.  Yes, he mentioned EvE, but EvE is more than open world PvP.

  Maquiame

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/21/07
Posts: 623

Power without perception is spiritually useless and of no true value

2/15/14 1:29:24 PM#124
Originally posted by Bidwood
Originally posted by Knytta
Originally posted by evilized
Originally posted by Knytta
Originally posted by Bidwood

I'm also expecting a "hybrid" world in the sense that some areas are "safer" than others. Like Eve with high-security zones where attacking and killing another player is suicide - but possible.

And zones on the 'frontier' which are totally unprotected. The best resources are there. And the only way to make

Forcing people to play a game exactly the way you want them to play is apparently very important to you.

That's exactly it though, Knytta... There is no forcing anybody to do anything in a sandbox, open pvp or not. All options are available in one package. You can pvp if you'd like or you can stick to PvE / crafting or just hanging out with friends and never have to worry about being attacked by another player.

 

Placing the best resources in game in PVP areas and then waxing poetically about all the things the PVE players have to do to get there is NOT forcing them to play the game as you want them to? Of course they can choose not to go there, or choose not to play the game at all.

There are more PVE players than PVP players, targeting a game to the smaller customer base is bad business and is not going to happen. The best you can hope for is flagging like SWG.

Smedley likes PVP and writes about what he likes, that does not mean that EQN will be that way.

 

 

Smedley wasn't just writing about what he likes. He explicitly stated "Our belief at SOE is that it’s smarter to head in this direction now rather than waiting." right after talking about Eve Online and how it's a brilliantly executed system.

I have to ask why is it that you are looking at EQN for your pvp needs  when CU is exactly what all of you pvpers are looking for? Why are you not instead putting your interests behind Camelot Unchained? The game is PVP only which means they will HAVE to have a FFA ruleset because there will be no non PVP rulesets to concern themselves with

Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!

  KaosProphet

Novice Member

Joined: 8/31/12
Posts: 384

2/15/14 2:39:11 PM#125
Originally posted by syriinx
Originally posted by SoulTrapOnSelf
Sandbox.

I don't even know what the point of this post is.

Sandbox and PvP are two words which have absolutely no correlation between them.  Saying a game is a sandbox tells you nothing about having PvP of any kind, and saying a game has open world PvP doesnt hint that its a sandbox.

Not entirely true.  There is, in practice, a strong correlation between 'sandbox' and 'pvp' in online games.  There's no reason why it has to be that way, but there is a history of precedent demonstrating that it usually is - and that's all that 'correlation' means.

However, 'usually' is not 'always.'  You can have 'sandbox' without 'pvp.'  Not common, but possible.

  KaosProphet

Novice Member

Joined: 8/31/12
Posts: 384

2/15/14 2:51:13 PM#126
Originally posted by Knytta
Originally posted by evilized
Originally posted by Knytta
Originally posted by Bidwood

I'm also expecting a "hybrid" world in the sense that some areas are "safer" than others. Like Eve with high-security zones where attacking and killing another player is suicide - but possible.

And zones on the 'frontier' which are totally unprotected. The best resources are there. And the only way to make

Forcing people to play a game exactly the way you want them to play is apparently very important to you.

That's exactly it though, Knytta... There is no forcing anybody to do anything in a sandbox, open pvp or not. All options are available in one package. You can pvp if you'd like or you can stick to PvE / crafting or just hanging out with friends and never have to worry about being attacked by another player.

 

Placing the best resources in game in PVP areas and then waxing poetically about all the things the PVE players have to do to get there is NOT forcing them to play the game as you want them to? Of course they can choose not to go there, or choose not to play the game at all.

There are more PVE players than PVP players, targeting a game to the smaller customer base is bad business and is not going to happen. The best you can hope for is flagging like SWG.

 

Not always true.  There are quite often times when targetting the smaller customer base is better business - for example, when the larger customer base is already so heavily targetted that any piece of that pie you'll manage to grab is going to be smaller than what you'd get going for a different audience.
  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7049

2/15/14 3:05:22 PM#127
Originally posted by KaosProphet
Originally posted by syriinx
Originally posted by SoulTrapOnSelf
Sandbox.

I don't even know what the point of this post is.

Sandbox and PvP are two words which have absolutely no correlation between them.  Saying a game is a sandbox tells you nothing about having PvP of any kind, and saying a game has open world PvP doesnt hint that its a sandbox.

Not entirely true.  There is, in practice, a strong correlation between 'sandbox' and 'pvp' in online games.  There's no reason why it has to be that way, but there is a history of precedent demonstrating that it usually is - and that's all that 'correlation' means.

However, 'usually' is not 'always.'  You can have 'sandbox' without 'pvp.'  Not common, but possible.

I can't think of any pve only sandbox, or pve centric sandbox for that matter.

  Sinella

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/03/09
Posts: 336

2/15/14 3:14:00 PM#128
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by KaosProphet
Originally posted by syriinx
Originally posted by SoulTrapOnSelf
Sandbox.

I don't even know what the point of this post is.

Sandbox and PvP are two words which have absolutely no correlation between them.  Saying a game is a sandbox tells you nothing about having PvP of any kind, and saying a game has open world PvP doesnt hint that its a sandbox.

Not entirely true.  There is, in practice, a strong correlation between 'sandbox' and 'pvp' in online games.  There's no reason why it has to be that way, but there is a history of precedent demonstrating that it usually is - and that's all that 'correlation' means.

However, 'usually' is not 'always.'  You can have 'sandbox' without 'pvp.'  Not common, but possible.

I can't think of any pve only sandbox, or pve centric sandbox for that matter.

A Tale in the desert. There is no combat at all in that game.

  Allein

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/13
Posts: 803

2/15/14 5:41:58 PM#129
Originally posted by Bidwood
Originally posted by Iczer

Point of note is that EVE does in fact have open world pvp but it is far from forced. It is your choice to venture into those dangerous systems of the universe where you could be attacked. If you don't want to get attacked with ease, stick to the areas.

EVE also has real consequences for pvp actions in those systems that are under police protection. If you attack someone in a protected area of space the NPC cops will be on  you fast and destroy your ship. 

I like the way you think.

I think the issue many have is that people like you come off aggressively for no reason "read it and weep." Using OW PVP as a weapon or taunt. You are doing nothing but annoy and anger people, when it would be wiser showing them the way to the promise land.

OW PVP doesn't mean anything. EVE isn't a FFA OW PVP no consequence game. There are consequences not only by other players, but by the game itself. Obviously there are holes in any system for for the most part EVE does have some sort of structure to PVP.

I'm not sure how EQN could mimic EVE's system. Find it hard to believe they would cut the world up into PVP or Safe zones that have any meaningful content. Like Freeport is Safe and Lavastorm is PVP. Not a smart move.

EVE isn't a fantasy rpg and takes place in space. Huge difference in the environment and how things can or can't be cut up to please everyone.

Even if it was Tier 1-2 is safe, 3-5 is PVP or something like that, a huge amount of unique content would be cut off from too many.

I see Smedly talking more about how players have more impact on the game in EVE compared to EQ, instead of EQN = EVE. The overall idea or vision and not the literal details.

Could could as easily talked about SWG and how it's PVP system worked and player impact on the game. It is actually a realistic comparison of how EQN could work. Just because Smedly likes EVE, doesn't mean that he forcing devs to borrow elements from it.

  Allein

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/13
Posts: 803

2/15/14 5:46:58 PM#130
Originally posted by bcbully

I can't think of any pve only sandbox, or pve centric sandbox for that matter.

I can't think of any sandbox games... 

Awesome how we all have our own definitions of everything, yet still try to argue and come to conclusions without any agreement from the start.

I've seen EQ called a sandbox, it was PVE only for the most part. Then again, I don't consider it a sandbox so the fun continues.

  Ridelynn

Elite Member

Joined: 12/19/10
Posts: 3325

2/15/14 5:55:42 PM#131

Some people haven't realized that you have to take anything Smedley says, and just ignore it. That dude says whatever he thinks is most popular at the time, and it has absolutely no basis in any form of reality.

Maybe it will be open world PvP, maybe it won't - but I wouldn't believe the sky is blue if Smedley said so until I saw it for myself.

  Bidwood

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 555

 
OP  2/16/14 9:45:12 AM#132
not going to ignore Smedley. I love him. he is going to do amazing things to the genre.
  Notimeforbs

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/13
Posts: 297

2/16/14 10:17:23 PM#133
Originally posted by syriinx
Originally posted by Bidwood

Smedley wasn't just writing about what he likes. He explicitly stated "Our belief at SOE is that it’s smarter to head in this direction now rather than waiting." right after talking about Eve Online and how it's a brilliantly executed system.

No one is ever going to take you seriously when you spout bullshit like this.  You either know you are spouting bullshit (thus trolling), or you are very poor at analyzing things.  You'll notice in the paragraph where he was talking about player driven content, he was talking about things like auction houses, storytelling tools, and player elections.  The only PvP thing he mentioned was battlegrounds.

In fact, the blog makes open world PvP seem less likely than before because he specifically mentioned battlegrounds.  Yes, he mentioned EvE, but EvE is more than open world PvP.

I don't really know the history of this entire conversation, and I'm not commenting on that.  But I wanted to point something out:

EVE Online doesn't really have much outside of open world PvP.  I mean, it does... but the game has PvP at its heart.  Whatever it does have that is PvE, is there for no other reason than to help you obtain some kind of a resource: money, materials, prestige, etc.  The PvE story of the game is pretty much inconsequential to the prospect of allowing Player Interaction, however that may occur.  Every single element of the game is built around the idea that it provides something for the PvP aspect.  The thing about it is, EVE Online takes the idea of what PvP actually means to a whole new level.

In a standard MMO, PvP generally means when two people engage in combat.  In EVE Online... it's that... plus a whole lot of stuff.  Working the economy is the foundation of the entire game - and it is very much a PvP ordeal.  Gaining territory is a huge deal in that game.  Again, player interaction and PvP.  Placing jobs on the market for others to take.  That's another layer of Player Interaction that develops content on its own - which is what PvP actually means.  Fail to meet that order or somehow screw someone over by not paying, you now have a bounty on your head.  This is again always funneling back to PvP.  No one writes stories about the PvE content, because in comparison... it doesn't even matter.  People write stories about the player interaction, and that's what intrigues people to read about it.  I've read several, and each one is unique and totally inspiring.

EVE Online is so dramatic and so emotionally invested in by its players because of that foundation that they're not just competing against a computer code.  The risk of doing everything is so high, because everything about the game has you in some way or another dealing with another player.  That allows the player to give out a more honest contextual output.  This is why people play the game, and why currently.... no other MMO really offers a similar experience.

I think EVE Online hasn't grown because people are turned off by a lot of the interface mechanics of the game.  I think people are genuinely interested in the experience they might have with EVE, but they would rather have that experience with an actual humanistic avatar.  That and the fact that it's a pretty deep and somewhat messy interface with a lot of spreadsheet like stuff going on.

To be honest - I sincerely believe that those are the only things about EVE Online that keeps it from being the ultimate MMO right now.  And I say that believing it to be the most PvP focused game in every respect of its current incarnation.

If they allowed you to play an actual character, and run around doing this stuff with a gun and armor or whatever, and then cleaned up the interface a bit... I promise you that it wouldn't be considered a niche game.  The fact that you're in a cockpit of a starship for 95% of the game is the biggest reason why more people don't play EVE Online.  And by more people, I'm talking millions.  It's hard to get attached to something that doesn't have a noticeable personality on it's own.

  Notimeforbs

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/13
Posts: 297

2/16/14 10:18:52 PM#134
Originally posted by Bidwood
not going to ignore Smedley. I love him. he is going to do amazing things to the genre.

And then two years into it, he's going to change his mind and gut the game to make it completely different because what people want is whatever Blizzard is doing in their game.

  Tierless

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2098

joie de vivre

2/16/14 11:04:14 PM#135

Let us hope.

mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas

  User Deleted
2/17/14 8:30:09 AM#136
Battlegrounds = death knell for pvp.
  Thane

Elite Member

Joined: 8/14/03
Posts: 1821

I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.

2/17/14 8:32:15 AM#137

people wanted the sandbox, now they get it?

let's see if they can handle it in all it's glory, including the gankfest :>

"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  Ryoshi1

Novice Member

Joined: 1/21/14
Posts: 141

2/17/14 8:33:13 AM#138
It should have separate servers PvP and PvE for everyone (I prefer PvP).  In the meantime you can build all you want in eqnl and pvp all you want in day z (ooo so real) :D
  Bidwood

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 555

 
OP  2/17/14 10:12:22 AM#139
Originally posted by Notimeforbs
Originally posted by syriinx
Originally posted by Bidwood

Smedley wasn't just writing about what he likes. He explicitly stated "Our belief at SOE is that it’s smarter to head in this direction now rather than waiting." right after talking about Eve Online and how it's a brilliantly executed system.

No one is ever going to take you seriously when you spout bullshit like this.  You either know you are spouting bullshit (thus trolling), or you are very poor at analyzing things.  You'll notice in the paragraph where he was talking about player driven content, he was talking about things like auction houses, storytelling tools, and player elections.  The only PvP thing he mentioned was battlegrounds.

In fact, the blog makes open world PvP seem less likely than before because he specifically mentioned battlegrounds.  Yes, he mentioned EvE, but EvE is more than open world PvP.

I don't really know the history of this entire conversation, and I'm not commenting on that.  But I wanted to point something out:

EVE Online doesn't really have much outside of open world PvP.  I mean, it does... but the game has PvP at its heart.  Whatever it does have that is PvE, is there for no other reason than to help you obtain some kind of a resource: money, materials, prestige, etc.  The PvE story of the game is pretty much inconsequential to the prospect of allowing Player Interaction, however that may occur.  Every single element of the game is built around the idea that it provides something for the PvP aspect.  The thing about it is, EVE Online takes the idea of what PvP actually means to a whole new level.

In a standard MMO, PvP generally means when two people engage in combat.  In EVE Online... it's that... plus a whole lot of stuff.  Working the economy is the foundation of the entire game - and it is very much a PvP ordeal.  Gaining territory is a huge deal in that game.  Again, player interaction and PvP.  Placing jobs on the market for others to take.  That's another layer of Player Interaction that develops content on its own - which is what PvP actually means.  Fail to meet that order or somehow screw someone over by not paying, you now have a bounty on your head.  This is again always funneling back to PvP.  No one writes stories about the PvE content, because in comparison... it doesn't even matter.  People write stories about the player interaction, and that's what intrigues people to read about it.  I've read several, and each one is unique and totally inspiring.

EVE Online is so dramatic and so emotionally invested in by its players because of that foundation that they're not just competing against a computer code.  The risk of doing everything is so high, because everything about the game has you in some way or another dealing with another player.  That allows the player to give out a more honest contextual output.  This is why people play the game, and why currently.... no other MMO really offers a similar experience.

I think EVE Online hasn't grown because people are turned off by a lot of the interface mechanics of the game.  I think people are genuinely interested in the experience they might have with EVE, but they would rather have that experience with an actual humanistic avatar.  That and the fact that it's a pretty deep and somewhat messy interface with a lot of spreadsheet like stuff going on.

To be honest - I sincerely believe that those are the only things about EVE Online that keeps it from being the ultimate MMO right now.  And I say that believing it to be the most PvP focused game in every respect of its current incarnation.

If they allowed you to play an actual character, and run around doing this stuff with a gun and armor or whatever, and then cleaned up the interface a bit... I promise you that it wouldn't be considered a niche game.  The fact that you're in a cockpit of a starship for 95% of the game is the biggest reason why more people don't play EVE Online.  And by more people, I'm talking millions.  It's hard to get attached to something that doesn't have a noticeable personality on it's own.

EXACTLY! I am in love with Eve's game systems but can't get into the look and feel. In a context with an avatar and action combat I would be all over it and so would an army of people.

  r0guy

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/28/06
Posts: 119

2/18/14 9:47:41 AM#140
Originally posted by Notimeforbs

I think EVE Online hasn't grown because people are turned off by a lot of the interface mechanics of the game.  I think people are genuinely interested in the experience they might have with EVE, but they would rather have that experience with an actual humanistic avatar.  That and the fact that it's a pretty deep and somewhat messy interface with a lot of spreadsheet like stuff going on.

To be honest - I sincerely believe that those are the only things about EVE Online that keeps it from being the ultimate MMO right now.  And I say that believing it to be the most PvP focused game in every respect of its current incarnation.

If they allowed you to play an actual character, and run around doing this stuff with a gun and armor or whatever, and then cleaned up the interface a bit... I promise you that it wouldn't be considered a niche game.  The fact that you're in a cockpit of a starship for 95% of the game is the biggest reason why more people don't play EVE Online.  And by more people, I'm talking millions.  It's hard to get attached to something that doesn't have a noticeable personality on it's own.

 I think that you're being way too generous to Eve Online. The success of Day Z (with it's horrible interface) and Star Citizen (lack of "humanistic avatar") seem to show that those things arn't deal breakers.

Eve PVP is great because of the impact it has on politics, the economy, crafting, territory and RolePlay. As gameplay Mechanics go, It has alot of issues that I'm amazed they havn't even bothered trying to fix during the last 10 years.

Rock-paper-scissors balancing, repetitive and skilless gameplay (target > set optimal orbit > activate high slots > activate med slots), drop down menus and double click movement, all combat revolves around gate-camping for hours on end, disposable alts that negate all death penalties, weird combat mechanics based on transversal velocities instead of the better shield/weapon/energy/positioning management systems from star trek or star wars games, bad balance between harshness of death penalties and ease of avoiding combat with hiding in stations and watching TV until threats get bored and go away, log-off exploits, safespots, warp-core stabilisers... And all that is just off the top of my head.

I'm happy that Eve online is there to show how PVP can improve all other facets in a game, but if Star Citizen or Elite Dangerous manage to deliver on half of what they are promising, CCP are going to get a swift kick in the teeth.

 

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