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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Need further proof the Kick Starter idea is dumb founded?

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124 posts found
  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4879

2/14/14 5:59:05 PM#61
Originally posted by iridescence

Oh look...more straw man arguments like these anti-Kickstarter posts always seem to have because all Kickstarters and crowdfunding is exactly the same right!?

 

Even if those two Kickstarters are bad it doesn't prove anything about Kickstarter in general. You may as well say "I went shoping and I got ripped off at a store! Shopping is bad and a scam!"

 

[mod edit]

 

Not a good analogy.

Kickstarter is a gamble, shopping isn't. Getting ripped off in a store is a crime.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20123

2/14/14 6:14:23 PM#62
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by iridescence

Oh look...more straw man arguments like these anti-Kickstarter posts always seem to have because all Kickstarters and crowdfunding is exactly the same right!?

 

Even if those two Kickstarters are bad it doesn't prove anything about Kickstarter in general. You may as well say "I went shoping and I got ripped off at a store! Shopping is bad and a scam!"

 

[mod edit]

 

Not a good analogy.

Kickstarter is a gamble, shopping isn't. Getting ripped off in a store is a crime.

Let's use his analogy.

When is the last time you hand over money in a store, and you do not walk out with a product? Never ... for me. Because you pick up the product in the store before handing over money.

What that 2 KS proves is that it is possible to hand over money and get nothing in KS, while that never happens in a store.

Good example of why KS is not something i will ever spend a dime in ... now if you want to gamble your $$$, i am not going to stop you.

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4879

2/14/14 8:55:18 PM#63
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by iridescence

Oh look...more straw man arguments like these anti-Kickstarter posts always seem to have because all Kickstarters and crowdfunding is exactly the same right!?

 

Even if those two Kickstarters are bad it doesn't prove anything about Kickstarter in general. You may as well say "I went shoping and I got ripped off at a store! Shopping is bad and a scam!"

 

[mod edit]

 

Not a good analogy.

Kickstarter is a gamble, shopping isn't. Getting ripped off in a store is a crime.

Let's use his analogy.

When is the last time you hand over money in a store, and you do not walk out with a product? Never ... for me. Because you pick up the product in the store before handing over money.

What that 2 KS proves is that it is possible to hand over money and get nothing in KS, while that never happens in a store.

Good example of why KS is not something i will ever spend a dime in ... now if you want to gamble your $$$, i am not going to stop you.

Same for me.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  Kevyne-Shandris

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/08
Posts: 1980

You can't † BURY † ¤¤ Holy Paladins ¤¤ As we will always __.- ASCEND -.__

2/14/14 9:01:01 PM#64
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

games that have been produced using traditional funding models mostly = trash.

game that have been made using crowdfunding and other creative access methods = good

Evidence?

You expect evidence here?

What he means is ... he does not like AAA games, and he like indie stuff. It is his preference .. has little to do with the larger gaming world.

 

Nari, still waiting on the evidence of: did you buy the $5,000 for data from that superdata website you've been linking for proof of financials from the publishers?

 

Otherwise, folks can just say, "You expect evidence here?"

 

^_^

nah .. superdata itself is evidence ... if not, how did it survive? You can try to ignore it and put your head into the sand .. but people will keep posting it.

 

Behind a $5,000 and $4,000 pay wall.

 

People quoting "free" data with the meaty bits behind a paywall. Don't you see the flaw in all of that, yet?

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5909

2/14/14 11:13:01 PM#65

I've funded 3 music projects for indie musicians I've been following since the 80s. Those are going well. The one game I've funded, Planet Explorers, is running several months late, but still moving along. The dev team is consistently communicative and have discussed the delays. Transparency works well.

I probably won't fund an mmo. The only one that seems to have all its ducks in a row is Camelot Unchained and I don't think that game is for me.

I would consider funding another single/multi-player again if the right project clicked with me.

Curse you AquaScum!

  plat0nic

Novice Member

Joined: 11/20/03
Posts: 303

2/14/14 11:28:04 PM#66
I'm not sure I understand your statement. Do you have any statistics for KickStarters or just some bad examples? How many games funded by big production companies go under before retail? I see kickstarter as a way of getting a higher number of games released.  There are only so many publishers working on so many projects, now there are publishers AND kickstarter campaigns. The risks are no different, its just another way to get a game to market...


Main Game: Eldevin (Plat0nic)
2nd Game: Path of Exile (Platonic Hate)

  Xthos

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2650

2/14/14 11:38:18 PM#67

Do you really think people doing dumb things is confined to kick starter?  No one did anything dumb before kick starter appeared!

 

Thank goodness, we all have saviors on these forums that can tell us what to do with our money.

 

News flash, we all probably do something everyday that someone would consider dumb, like paying for an expensive pizza, delivery and a tip, when you could make healthier food for a fraction of the cost....Paying 'X' amount for cable and smart phones a month...

 

Get over it, if someone doesn't do enough research into something, and they spend money poorly, it isn't your money.  Now if people are scamming people and taking their life savings, making them homeless, etc....  Sure mmorpg action news it. 

 

You found some bad kick starters, big deal, their are bad charities that are basically scams, so is giving to charity dumb founded as a whole idea? 

  Kevyne-Shandris

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/08
Posts: 1980

You can't † BURY † ¤¤ Holy Paladins ¤¤ As we will always __.- ASCEND -.__

2/15/14 12:49:30 AM#68
Originally posted by Xthos

You found some bad kick starters, big deal, their are bad charities that are basically scams, so is giving to charity dumb founded as a whole idea? 

Huh? Did I just see that as a reasoning to keep Kick Start "as is"?

 

It's called some more self-policing before the government comes down on this unregulated feature themselves.

 

It's always better for industry to self-police, because outsiders who do it will do so without regard to the industry.

 

When companies that have little trouble gaining investment dollars using it, it can cause a chilling effect with indies as they try to get financial assistance they can't achieve. It's like revisiting Standard Oil all over again 100 years later.

  Xthos

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2650

2/15/14 2:55:35 AM#69
Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris
Originally posted by Xthos

You found some bad kick starters, big deal, their are bad charities that are basically scams, so is giving to charity dumb founded as a whole idea? 

Huh? Did I just see that as a reasoning to keep Kick Start "as is"?

 

It's called some more self-policing before the government comes down on this unregulated feature themselves.

 

It's always better for industry to self-police, because outsiders who do it will do so without regard to the industry.

 

When companies that have little trouble gaining investment dollars using it, it can cause a chilling effect with indies as they try to get financial assistance they can't achieve. It's like revisiting Standard Oil all over again 100 years later.

 I don't think I said that.  I said that he maybe found some that he thought were bad, no matter how much you regulate something, you will still have something questionable slip through or use a loophole.  My argument was you cannot judge 100% of kick starter because of 1-2 things the OP wants to point out....Thus my statement that you can find charities that are scams or so little goes to their cause that it is almost worthless to give to them....Those bad charities do not mean all charities are bad.  You can find reports to find out what percentage goes to the charity and how much goes to overhead...Same with a kick starter, you will not find as much information, but you can make an informed decision with regards to pledging money.

 

 

  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1343

2/15/14 3:00:47 AM#70
Originally posted by nariusseldon
 

What that 2 KS proves is that it is possible to hand over money and get nothing in KS, while that never happens in a store.

Good example of why KS is not something i will ever spend a dime in ... now if you want to gamble your $$$, i am not going to stop you.

You can easily get something at a store that's not at all what you thought it was. Some stores may take it back most won't. You think scams and crap products  didn't exist before crowdfunding? Buyer beware.

 

 

  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1343

2/15/14 3:07:18 AM#71

Oh and just playing devil's advocate for the Mars movie one (even though I doubt I'd ever back something like that). Sure Warner Bros. has lots of money but they're not going to make a movie unless they think there's an audience for it. I think Kickstarter is used to judge whether there is actually a market for something as much as it is to raise money. I seem to remember Garriott admitting he had plenty of money to make SotA without KS but basically wanted to see if it was worth his while to do it.

 

That's not really as much as a "feel good story" as the guy in his garage wanting to make his dream game but if you really want a certain thing to be made and it's a niche product voting with your wallet like that makes some sense.

 

  fantasyfreak112

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/20/13
Posts: 523

2/15/14 3:14:27 AM#72
lol@people saying kickstarters are investments.
  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3411

2/15/14 4:12:48 AM#73

     I"m waiting for General Motors to have a Kickstarter car..  I'm not too impressed with Kickstarter, think I would get better return on my $$$$ donating to a political campaign..

EDIT: my position only applies to large multi million dollar MMO projects..  KIckstarter is just fine with small start ups and projects that only take a couple thousand here or there.. 

  Darkholme

Tipster

Joined: 3/02/04
Posts: 1227

"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer..."

2/15/14 2:01:45 PM#74
That's not an argument against Kickstarter, it's an argument against stupid people... and?

-------------------------
"Searchers after horror haunt strange, far places..." ~ H.P.Lovecraft, "From Beyond"

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20123

2/15/14 2:46:07 PM#75
Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris

 

People quoting "free" data with the meaty bits behind a paywall. Don't you see the flaw in all of that, yet?

No. Limited data is still data. Better than opinions from random people on the internet.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20123

2/15/14 2:46:59 PM#76
Originally posted by iridescence
Originally posted by nariusseldon
 

What that 2 KS proves is that it is possible to hand over money and get nothing in KS, while that never happens in a store.

Good example of why KS is not something i will ever spend a dime in ... now if you want to gamble your $$$, i am not going to stop you.

You can easily get something at a store that's not at all what you thought it was. Some stores may take it back most won't. You think scams and crap products  didn't exist before crowdfunding? Buyer beware.

 

 

So? At least the product exists, and you have no one to blame if you dont open, and inspect it.

KS does not even guarantee the existence of a product .. HUGE difference.

 

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4879

2/15/14 4:30:24 PM#77
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by iridescence
Originally posted by nariusseldon
 

What that 2 KS proves is that it is possible to hand over money and get nothing in KS, while that never happens in a store.

Good example of why KS is not something i will ever spend a dime in ... now if you want to gamble your $$$, i am not going to stop you.

You can easily get something at a store that's not at all what you thought it was. Some stores may take it back most won't. You think scams and crap products  didn't exist before crowdfunding? Buyer beware.

 

 

So? At least the product exists, and you have no one to blame if you dont open, and inspect it.

KS does not even guarantee the existence of a product .. HUGE difference.

 

This is why I said retail as a comparison is a bad analogy. There is nothing about KS that would be anything like a retail purchase. Even with KS, you aren't buying something. Assuming the product completes, you still have to buy it. KS has little to no recourse if the project goes wrong. And KS (For the purposes of this forum) has little to no ROI.

For once, I am in complete agreement with Nari. No way I'll fund a game like that.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  Ergload

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/02/12
Posts: 304

2/15/14 4:49:51 PM#78
I'm not against Kickstarter though I think it should be limited to indie devs, big studios with $$$ should not be allowed to run campaigns.


Currently playing: Achaea

  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1343

2/15/14 7:31:46 PM#79
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
 

This is why I said retail as a comparison is a bad analogy. There is nothing about KS that would be anything like a retail purchase. Even with KS, you aren't buying something. Assuming the product completes, you still have to buy it. KS has little to no recourse if the project goes wrong. And KS (For the purposes of this forum) has little to no ROI.

 

Yes, I'm not disputing this or saying my analogy works perfectly. However, I made it in the context of the OP which is taking two fairly dodgy Kickstarters and saying they "prove" that all Kickstarters are bad. I still say this is ridiculous in the same way as swearing off shopping because you get ripped off at one or two stores.

 

 

  Kevyne-Shandris

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/08
Posts: 1980

You can't † BURY † ¤¤ Holy Paladins ¤¤ As we will always __.- ASCEND -.__

2/15/14 7:32:00 PM#80
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by iridescence
Originally posted by nariusseldon
 

What that 2 KS proves is that it is possible to hand over money and get nothing in KS, while that never happens in a store.

Good example of why KS is not something i will ever spend a dime in ... now if you want to gamble your $$$, i am not going to stop you.

You can easily get something at a store that's not at all what you thought it was. Some stores may take it back most won't. You think scams and crap products  didn't exist before crowdfunding? Buyer beware.

 

 

So? At least the product exists, and you have no one to blame if you dont open, and inspect it.

KS does not even guarantee the existence of a product .. HUGE difference.

 

This is why I said retail as a comparison is a bad analogy. There is nothing about KS that would be anything like a retail purchase. Even with KS, you aren't buying something. Assuming the product completes, you still have to buy it. KS has little to no recourse if the project goes wrong. And KS (For the purposes of this forum) has little to no ROI.

For once, I am in complete agreement with Nari. No way I'll fund a game like that.

It's giving money away with zero guarantees.

 

It's worse than gambling, because in gambling there's a possibility of getting more than you put in. KS isn't even an investment where there's a dividend to be paid quarterly. If folks want to invest, invest in game companies with all the consumer protections it offers.

 

The whole point is there is NO consumer protections in this gray market. Plus, the player gets zero say in it's development. It's all take, and what is given, doesn't mean a hill of beans if the project never sees the light of day -- of if it does appear, even last 6 months to enjoy the perks.

 

It's like funding any artist with ideas, without even inspecting their portfolio of what they can do, or their work history that a design can be finished within our lifetime and as illustrated.

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