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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] EverQuest Next: Smedley, the Sandbox, and Online Society

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111 posts found
  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5251

2/14/14 4:58:19 AM#81

While I will always have concerns about a MMO built on a F2P budget, he has some good points.

"The real issue is a simple one – our ability to consume that content as players has gotten to the point that most content is done by the players nearly immediately after it’s released. It’s also laid out for all to see on any number of websites that contain complete spoilers up to and including the loot drop percentages.“

  Pratt2112

Elite Member

Joined: 2/12/12
Posts: 1181

2/14/14 7:10:01 AM#82
Originally posted by Wizardry

Guess i need add the word "FARM" to Voxels for the smart ass who asked me if i know what a voxel is.

SOe is licensing the Voxels Farm engine for their game for the smart ass.

If you're referring to me...

 

How am I a smartass?

 

I was responding to your words. If you say one thing, but actually meant to say, or were thinking something else... that's not my problem. It's not my job to divine what you actually meant, or might have been thinking. It's your responsibility to express yourself more clearly.

 

Speak more clearly and make your points more accurately in the future, and people won't "misunderstand" you - or, in your terms, they won't be "smartasses" in their replies.

 

"Devs need to stop trying to make MMOs for people who don't like MMOs" - thevampirelematt/Reddit

  ITPalg

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/12/08
Posts: 227

2/14/14 8:33:08 AM#83
Originally posted by Spawnblade
I still don't understand why SOE, when finally deciding to go full sandbox, thought that stepping away from realism was the answer.  "Let's simplify our combat system, not even hint at PvP, and transform all our formerly-realistic character designs into cartoons!"  Immersion is the biggest ingredient for a successful sandbox, yet they seem to be making decisions that destroy that immersion.

 

There are many people that would call your "realistic character designs" of SoE (EQ II?), "plastic".

You want real? Put Eve Online's character creation and captain's quarter models into a game that doesn't chug with 50 of those characters on screen.

insert appropriate forum signature here for the terrible signature functions that can't be figured out.

  Ozmodan

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 6676

2/14/14 10:14:27 AM#84
Originally posted by ITPalg
Originally posted by Spawnblade
I still don't understand why SOE, when finally deciding to go full sandbox, thought that stepping away from realism was the answer.  "Let's simplify our combat system, not even hint at PvP, and transform all our formerly-realistic character designs into cartoons!"  Immersion is the biggest ingredient for a successful sandbox, yet they seem to be making decisions that destroy that immersion.

 

There are many people that would call your "realistic character designs" of SoE (EQ II?), "plastic".

You want real? Put Eve Online's character creation and captain's quarter models into a game that doesn't chug with 50 of those characters on screen.

I don't think that the cartoony aspects of this game will affect it much.  Certainly has not hurt Wow.

As I mentioned before, this game is NOT really a sandbox as it has a rigid class structure.  It has elements of a sandbox, but the most important thing in the game is your avatar and when that is restricted it eliminates ever calling this a full sandbox.  I don't know of any past sandbox games that have classes, probably have been some obscure ones, but none of the major ones.

This still could be a fun game, but it will be sometime before it is ready for play.

  IAmMMO

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/17/08
Posts: 1320

2/14/14 10:24:59 AM#85

It's taken little over a decade for things to go full circle at last!  SWG would still be going  strong if it wasn't messed with, and then closed by Lucas not allowing the renewing of the contract with SOE.Even UO still does better than many theme park MMO's released years after it  in player numbers.

 

 It's all about the player, they are what keeps things dynamic if you give them a world and tools to play with as Smeds mentioned. I can never bring myself to play  the last decades Theme Park MMO formula anymore, I'd rather play a good single player game instead, ESO will be the last flop of this era of MMO madness of chasing the theme park leader. To say in this day an age you couldn't make Elders Scroll an open world sandbox MMO certainly shows the grip the publishing suits have on the developers working for companies that own the big IP's. Shroud of the Avatar online part should be good, it's like what UO can be with today tech.

  Ender4

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2096

2/14/14 10:38:03 AM#86


Originally posted by Ozmodan


As I mentioned before, this game is NOT really a sandbox as it has a rigid class structure.  It has elements of a sandbox, but the most important thing in the game is your avatar and when that is restricted it eliminates ever calling this a full sandbox.  I don't know of any past sandbox games that have classes, probably have been some obscure ones, but none of the major ones.

This still could be a fun game, but it will be sometime before it is ready for play.


This is one of the oddest things I've ever read. Of course you can have a sandbox with predefined classes. Sandbox refers to how you can interact with the world not how you play dress up yourself. You might not call it a sandbox but that is because you are using some weird self made definition of the term.

  whisperwynd

Elite Member

Joined: 2/22/06
Posts: 1421

Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the priviledge to do so as well.

2/14/14 10:56:42 AM#87
Originally posted by TangentPoint
Originally posted by Wizardry

Guess i need add the word "FARM" to Voxels for the smart ass who asked me if i know what a voxel is.

SOe is licensing the Voxels Farm engine for their game for the smart ass.

If you're referring to me...

 

How am I a smartass?

 

I was responding to your words. If you say one thing, but actually meant to say, or were thinking something else... that's not my problem. It's not my job to divine what you actually meant, or might have been thinking. It's your responsibility to express yourself more clearly.

 

Speak more clearly and make your points more accurately in the future, and people won't "misunderstand" you - or, in your terms, they won't be "smartasses" in their replies.

 

First off, if you've read any of Wizardry's posts you'd know english isn't his first language, so understanding is key on both sides of a conversation.

Second, had you known about the voxel farm license, you'd have understood what he meant to begin with and would not have condescendingly pointed out his omission of certain words. Had you not known about the license, instead of acknowledging your lack of said tidbit of knowledge, you condescendingly pointed out his omission of certain words to cover it up.

In either case, it does lend to the viewpoint of you being a "smartass" as he pointed out. Not saying you are myself, just how Wizardry might have seen things.

  cesmode8

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/16/12
Posts: 218

2/14/14 11:54:20 AM#88

So this is an interesting topic. 

I think we are all exhausted with theme park style MMOs and typical developer created quests, mini-game systems, raids, pvp systems, solo and small group content systems, etc. But, other than EVE, you will be hard pressed to find an MMO that survies as a pure sandbox.  People will eventually still say "Ok..now what?".  You can put in a game system like the foundry of Neverwinter for player generated quests which is awsome.  But its not the official "test your meddle, test your might and be handsomely rewarded" content.  

 

The reason I think EVE online survives is because it has a small(couple hundred thousand?) loyal playerbase that understands the game is economy and PVP centric.  If a PVE player from WoW or GW2 want to give EVE a try, they will be turned off.  The PVE player from WoW will want his game systems, modes, instances, etc.  He NEEDS to be guided, where EVE won't do that.

I think SOE should find a nice balance between sandbox and player created content vs theme park.  Give us dungeons, give us raids, give us the environment and tools to create content for ourselves without even realizing it. 

I don't think a pure sandbox or a pure themepark can be the next best thing since EVE and WoW in this MMO saturated market.  Find a balance.

 

  GregorMcgregor

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 206

2/14/14 1:27:15 PM#89

SoE and Smedley... I'd sooner trust a anger Dwarf with a pair of scissors that just caught me in Snow White's bedroom!

It will either be empty promises, and/or  monetized to the hilt. /enjoy

Can't wait to see the SWG look-a-like that's been promised, my bet on it's name is:

Star Wars GaLaxatives.

No trials. No tricks. No traps. No EU-RP server. NO THANKS!


...10% Benevolence, 90% Arrogance in my case!

  Kevyne-Shandris

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/08
Posts: 1980

You can't † BURY † ¤¤ Holy Paladins ¤¤ As we will always __.- ASCEND -.__

2/14/14 8:35:44 PM#90

When I read these sentiments I just shake my head, as have we all heard it before?

 

EvE survives because it came to MMOland early, and developed a fanbase then, and before even WoW entered the scene (plus management actively manages it, like Aeralik did with EQ2 [and both active management modes hurt the publisher]). But because it's a space MMO it niched itself, and it's a niche that Blizzard isn't concerned about (unless it steps on the Starcraft franchise toes, then CCP would have to deal with the 800lb gorilla like every other fantasy MMO faced or will face).

 

Sandbox must have a light rail of dev created content to keep players interested and in game, as it shows that as soon as players eat their way through current content, they just leave. They no longer even want to improve their characters anymore (early today my other family member was mining in a PvP zone, and was attacked by a Horde miner. My sis came over to "guard" the other family member, spotted the Horde miner and killed her. Then again. So what did that Horde miner do? Brought in her guild leader who, along with the Horde miner, were slaughtered (score: 4:1). A check at the 2 90s in the guild showed they were but trash toons; the guild is but someone else's 2nd account; and any gear they had was what could easily be gotten with BGs -- sis is sporting even 25m normal gear, properly enchanged/gemmed/reforged, thus, blew those 2 trash toons away at once in total PVE GEAR!!!). And that's more the standard these days as PvP cheapens content to only combat rotations, instead. The players don't bother to better toons they'd delete for the next FoTM.

 

So expect these new ideas about "sandbox" to fail, as the players will be clueless in what to do, unless they're tethered to something to keep them going (mark my words: EQN in 2 years will only do as well as EQ2 in the early years). To be successful the games have to resemble movies more, not the bits and pieces that will be ignored for cash shop goodies.

 

After sampling PS2, yeah, I can guarantee the concept won't go far for long. The management isn't there to even support 1 game in the catalogue, in itself. -_-

  kjempff

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/12/04
Posts: 697

Make worlds not stories

2/14/14 9:08:07 PM#91

As happy I am hearing about Pantheon, and also currently playing a bit of Project 1999..

SoE is on the right path, with their sandbox and player driven approach of the whole EQN/Landmark idea. That is the future of mmo gaming, and although not being first movers, they are still the first to go in with a massive efford; suspecting Blizzard and other will follow not far behind. SoE are however famous for pooping in their own yard, stepping in it and walking all over their carpets, so even though they got all the right ideas, they may still f... mess it all up :)

edit: EQN+Landmark is conceptually not just a sandbox like EVE, it is not just a builder like minecraft, and not just a mmo. It is all of these things, player driven to some extent or atleast has the potential to become player driven, and it will target a broad audience.

  celee

Novice Member

Joined: 3/28/13
Posts: 8

2/15/14 6:01:15 AM#92

I think people forget that it wasn't the sandbox game of SWG that made it the game we all loved. The game was a bug filled cesspool. It was the community that was there that put up all the content that kept people playing the game. This is what most MMOs are dropping in favor of convenience.

You can have the best sandbox mmo features but without a solid community that people actively engage in the game is ultimately going to fail. If you have a bunch of players that have fun playing together all the time you can make that small amount of content or playability last a lot longer than otherwise.

 

Take SWG since that's the most talked about sandbox generally speaking. The first year of that game everything was player created. There was like 10? theme park quests and that was it for given content. The rest was all player driven. Player crafted stuff, random combat missions picked up at terminals, searching for best resources, raids on faction towns, building your structures. The funny thing was that a lot of the fun that was had during that first year resolved around the social interaction between the players. There was very little people would do solo.

It was the community that made that game great. Sure there was a live forum presence by a lot of players but the vast amount of interaction took place ingame. Boot up any MMO and see where the vast amount of interaction (if any at all) takes place. There might be an odd occurance of text in LFD groups, there is spam trade and guild recruitment. The rest takes place in guild chats (if even there). There is no social for social sake.

One last thing to note online guides didn't help much in SWG. There would be guides on how to 'break' your character by stacking defenses and such. A guide could tell what stats on crafting mats mattered most to get the best weaps/armor but you had to go out and find that random patch of mats to place your harvester on and hope that it was a good stat on it. no guide could tell you where to harvest the best mats and tell you what stats it would have. No guide could tell you where the player dropped forts were and give you the people with the skills to destroy them. or more importantly when those bases would end up vulnerable.

 

anyways to end my rant, sandboxes are great and all but what are the plans to get the community to participate in the game instead of playing a game?

  Ozmodan

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 6676

2/15/14 10:20:23 AM#93
Originally posted by Ender4

 


Originally posted by Ozmodan

 


As I mentioned before, this game is NOT really a sandbox as it has a rigid class structure.  It has elements of a sandbox, but the most important thing in the game is your avatar and when that is restricted it eliminates ever calling this a full sandbox.  I don't know of any past sandbox games that have classes, probably have been some obscure ones, but none of the major ones.

This still could be a fun game, but it will be sometime before it is ready for play.


 

This is one of the oddest things I've ever read. Of course you can have a sandbox with predefined classes. Sandbox refers to how you can interact with the world not how you play dress up yourself. You might not call it a sandbox but that is because you are using some weird self made definition of the term.

That is wrong!  Sandbox is how you interact with the world with your avatar.  When you are restricted to class boundaries including skills and equipment, it is no longer a sandbox, just has some sandbox elements.  Your avatar is still quite limited to how the class structure defines them.   Name me one sandbox title that has a class structure that is a not a obscure game,  Right, you can't, because there is not any.   Sandbox titles are all about letting your avatar define the skills and equipment you want, not how the developer defines them.

  Lord-Kronk

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/06/04
Posts: 25

2/15/14 5:38:09 PM#94

[mod edit] The largest sandbox game around is Minecraft.  It has the highest player base of any game ever.  People still buy the game and love it. On top of which, it's nearly as far removed from realistic as you can get (graphically).

 

EQNLandmark is (in time) going to remove minecraft from it's throne.  Assuming at some point the code is released and modding is allowed.  It has the potential to go far beyond anything else we've seen.  And it's free.  

(and don't bring the SOE market place into it, if you knew anything about it, you wouldn't bring it up to begin with)

  FastTx

Novice Member

Joined: 8/23/05
Posts: 754

2/15/14 7:56:06 PM#95
Well the real problem is you can get from 1-max level in 10 days in an average MMO nowadays. Back in the day some MMO's took at least a year to get to maximum.
  Akarr

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/08
Posts: 6

2/16/14 2:42:04 AM#96
It will be interesting to see when they implement pve and pvp and what kind of rewards it will give. Game has has its charm. But grinding ore hour after hour takes its toll. Perhaps not for the common mmo player.
  Azareal

Novice Member

Joined: 7/02/04
Posts: 152

2/16/14 11:20:57 PM#97
I'm sorry but it's Smedley and after his arrogant self-serving past history, all I got from his comments was that he now wants the subscribers to build his game for him and then charge everyone for doing it and for playing it. 
  Elikal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 8067

“No path is darker then when your eyes are shut.” -Flemeth

2/17/14 5:03:59 AM#98

From Saulus to Paulus, eh? ^^

It is good to hear. I mean *I* said so all along for years, but it is good to see Mr Smedley finally listened to me. Herp Derp. ^^

 

But in all seriousness: reading it made me very happy. No matter how much of it may be PR, Landmarks shows of GREAT potential and that SOE puts the money and actions to the words! If you see what Landmarks is already capable of, and what it will be, you can see it is MORE than just words!

I am so happy SOE and Smed are so open these days. They speak really entirely frankly about Landmarks, about every issue, every idea, 100% transparency, and THAT is how I always wanted MMO to be made: together WITH the fans! Reading Smeds sandbox blog, the honesty, no PR bla bla, clearly talking about TESO and SWTOR also, giving SWG or the LOTRO Music system as examples... wow. This is what I ALWAYS wanted to see coming into MMOs.

I am sure in years to come we will look back at this swing in SOE as the mayor turning point in MMOs back to greatness!

 

Smed and SOE got all my support for this!

 

As a sidenote: Lord British aka Richard Garriot said that all along about MMOs. Teh. It is a sort of flip back to what made UO great.

A forum is a place where people can discuss about different opinions. So what I don't get is, how people react offended when they come to a forum and then find... well different opinions. If a different opinion offends you, what are you even doing here?

  tom_gore

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 1803

2/17/14 5:14:28 AM#99
Originally posted by Azareal
I'm sorry but it's Smedley and after his arrogant self-serving past history, all I got from his comments was that he now wants the subscribers to build his game for him and then charge everyone for doing it and for playing it. 

I'm sorry but so far I'm having more fun in EQNL Alpha than what I've had in about a dozen MMOs I've played in the recent years.

It's a game changer. Mark my words :)

 

  Elikal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 8067

“No path is darker then when your eyes are shut.” -Flemeth

2/17/14 5:27:00 AM#100
Originally posted by BadSpock

I'll believe it when I see it, John.

Right now it is all talk, and people making penis monuments in Landmark.

 

That's just uncalled cynism. I haven't seen a single one of these. (And then what? Asia has Penis Monument. It is a matter of culture how to view sexuality, but that is an entirely different topic.)

Landmark has begun great and I have no reason to doubt the power and potential this brings into MMOs. Haven't we ALL said all along that a pure themepark doesn't work for EXACTLY these reasons, that players always burn through content?

I say support the man, because we all need this turn to be succesfull.

A forum is a place where people can discuss about different opinions. So what I don't get is, how people react offended when they come to a forum and then find... well different opinions. If a different opinion offends you, what are you even doing here?

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