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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Dungeons: Symptom of what is wrong with MMOs

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615 posts found
  CazNeerg

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

2/13/14 6:22:48 PM#161

 

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

And as has been pointed out to you oh so many times. You are in the wrong genre. Or at least in some kind of overlap. There are plenty of game out there for you and what you like.

OP and those who agree with him would like to have at least one available to chose from. 

If what someone is looking for is an RPG with a persistent online world that includes a bunch of other players, they are in the right genre.  Possibly not the right game depending on their tastes and which they play, but definitely the right genre.

Originally posted by dontadow

The Genre is adapting to serve people who don't like role playing games. Its the sad truth. The reason Subway sells pizza now and Mcdonalds sells fried chicken. Game companies (companies in general) don't want to greatly please niches, they want to mildly entertain the masses. This is why I"m looking to kIckstarter for the games I enjoy. I'd rather have a small indy publisher make something that's not as big budget but is as friendly.

You would have to have a fairly strange definition of RPG to make this argument.  Games like TOR, TSW, and ESO have substantially more RPG in them than most past MMOs have had.

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Not only that, MoP dungeons have been rendered completely and utterly pointless. There's no reason to run them ever.

If a given piece of content is actually fun, it could have no gear reward at all and people would still do it.  Because that is the point of games, having fun.  Only terrible content "needs" great rewards, so if people stop playing through something when it stops giving good rewards, it is likely something that was never really worth playing in the first place.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

  Itherael

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/31/14
Posts: 107

2/13/14 6:25:45 PM#162
I agree completely. Having played Dungeons and Dragons Online and Vanguard, I was absolutely appalled when I ran my first WoW "dungeon". It was a completely linear, mundane, and repetitive experience where our group would follow a line, going from room to room killing weaker monsters and at certain points a more powerful boss-type monster would appear, rinse and repeat. In comparison, the dungeons in DDO had deadly traps, secret doors, puzzles, locked chests, multiple passages, varying objectives, a DM narrating the experience, the ability to interact with objects such as doors and ladders, and some even featured fun twists like gravity shifts. I only hope future MMORPG's decide to stray away from this over-simplistic design present in WoW and most other modern MMORPG's and go back to featuring amazing dungeons like in DDO.
  Varsheva

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/20/06
Posts: 29

2/13/14 7:40:21 PM#163

OP is totally correct. I do not buy the "we are older, we don't have time" arguments. A dungeon can be designed to have safe camping points or multiple points of entrance using unlocks/teleports. DDO did have some cool ones.

OP would flip out (or maybe already has) with certain dungeons I came across in a certain game last weekend. The thing literally was ONE SMALL SQUARE. You did not even have a choice to go left or right, you entered, zerged the mobs through 4 hallways and left right where you entered. Hopefully some intern or something made this abomination.

Wish someone would post a screenshot of that one, I am sure many saw it!

  Ergload

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/02/12
Posts: 332

2/13/14 8:16:38 PM#164
Originally posted by Itherael
I agree completely. Having played Dungeons and Dragons Online and Vanguard, I was absolutely appalled when I ran my first WoW "dungeon". It was a completely linear, mundane, and repetitive experience where our group would follow a line, going from room to room killing weaker monsters and at certain points a more powerful boss-type monster would appear, rinse and repeat. In comparison, the dungeons in DDO had deadly traps, secret doors, puzzles, locked chests, multiple passages, varying objectives, a DM narrating the experience, the ability to interact with objects such as doors and ladders, and some even featured fun twists like gravity shifts. I only hope future MMORPG's decide to stray away from this over-simplistic design present in WoW and most other modern MMORPG's and go back to featuring amazing dungeons like in DDO.

Yeah the DDO dungeons were really cool the first time I played through them, they definitely had replay value.


Currently playing: Achaea

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20515

2/13/14 8:25:28 PM#165
Originally posted by ThumbtackJ
Originally posted by Octagon7711
MMO's like any other company must cater to the majority if they are to live long and prosper. 

That's the thing though. A lot of recent MMO's have catered the to majority, and have still had to change business models (some in record time), due to not being able to keep players.

 

That is because of competition. That is a good reason to cater even MORE to the majority, not less.

 

  Kilsin

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/12/08
Posts: 168

2/13/14 8:26:49 PM#166
Originally posted by Elikal
Originally posted by jpnz

If I have 1 hour to watch a TV show or whatever, I'd spend that hour running a couple of dungeons in an MMO.

That kind of logic makes sense right now and it isn't really the amount of time that's the problem.

The problem is that you need 2 hours consecutively for a dungeon like the one you want.

Ask anyone over 35 that's married and has kids about that.

20 mins to an hour here and there for  2 hours total on an evening? Doable, probably.

2 hours consecutively after work at home? ROFL! I wish!

 

The problem is not that you have only 1 hour, the problem is that you feel entitled to have the same in that 1 hour than someone else who wants to invest 5-6 hours.

Absolutely spot on!

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20515

2/13/14 8:34:18 PM#167
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Alders

I agree with the OP.

Dungeons of today are simply 30 minute ventures on the way to doing something else.  That's the problem.

No, that is the solution. I want my combat fun fast, challenging, and convenient. I don't want 3 hours commitment of just playing video games.

It is just a preference, and the market decide where is the big enough audience.

 

And as has been pointed out to you oh so many times. You are in the wrong genre. Or at least in some kind of overlap. There are plenty of game out there for you and what you like.

OP and those who agree with him would like to have at least one available to chose from.

He's playing games that are designed for him and millions of others just like him. His is the majority view. How is HE the one that's in the wrong genre?

This is mmorpg.com

A game can fail because one person doesn't like it. A game can be designed wrong because one person says so....and a person can be in the wrong genre because he doesn't agree with.....one person :)

In this case, UO failed and EQ failed because i don't like it. They are designed wrong .. because there is no instances, and you are in the wrong genre because you don't agree with me that MMORPGs are solo-lobby games.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20515

2/13/14 8:35:33 PM#168
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

The problem as I see it, is that the fundamental designs that made this genre initially successful do not apply to the masses....the millions.  They simply don't like what defined the early genre. MMORPGs are niche. The next problem is that trying to redesign a game to suit this demographic has caused the genre to change, but no matter what, you still have a square peg filed down to fit in a round hole. It's just an abortion of the original.

It is not a problem .. it is progress. The genre is adapting to serve more people. You may not like it .. but that is how business works.

 

But it's not. Even by your past admissions as to your style of play, you are costing these publishers money. They aren't profiting by you. There is little progress, Most of the games you've enjoyed came as a result of one failed attempt after another. You have reaped the benefits of that string of failures and you enjoy it. That's fine, there's nothing wrong with that in itself, but I'd hardly call that progress. It's not what Developers and publishers would have called a history of success.

They profit from whales .. they made a lot MORE money because of that (just look at the growth of the f2p market). THAT is progress.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20515

2/13/14 8:39:04 PM#169
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Alders

I agree with the OP.

Dungeons of today are simply 30 minute ventures on the way to doing something else.  That's the problem.

No, that is the solution. I want my combat fun fast, challenging, and convenient. I don't want 3 hours commitment of just playing video games.

It is just a preference, and the market decide where is the big enough audience.

 

And as has been pointed out to you oh so many times. You are in the wrong genre. Or at least in some kind of overlap. There are plenty of game out there for you and what you like.

OP and those who agree with him would like to have at least one available to chose from.

 

Edit: I want to clear this up. my statement was worded wrong. I was thinking along the lines of how Nari enjoys games like LOL (the MOBA style game) And that he's approached a lot of Free MMOs in the same fashion.

I did not mean to come across with a GTFO attitude.

"wrong genre"? I don't really care what genre i am in .. i just play fun (to me) games. If MMORPGs want to cater to me, why shouldn't i reap the benefit of having fun?

And in fact, they have to work hard to cater to me, because i am more like to play ARPGs, and SP games. It is up to them.

BTW, actually i don't enjoy MOBA and i do not play LoL although i recognize its success. I am more a ARPG player. D3, PoE, Marvel Heroes .. those are more my thing .. and yes, i approach all my gaming the same fashion. MMO is not special (aside from the fact that they are usually free).

Yes, i am sure the OP wants some games catering to him too .. but that is not my problem.

 

  ingphorlas

Novice Member

Joined: 11/29/13
Posts: 31

2/13/14 8:51:03 PM#170

Carn Dum the last great group dungeon ! and it had locks so people that didnt want to spend hours consecutively didnt have to they could hit a couple locks in an hour do some more over the course of the week then. I guess the problem was setting up a group that wanted to take a week to do it slowly

 

  Bossalinie

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/29/07
Posts: 632

2/13/14 8:51:51 PM#171

Here's another perspective,

While I'm not a gaming programmer, I do understand the joys of my clients experiencing my hard work. If I put years and poured my hard-earned work into designing this elaborate, complex, and beautiful dungeon, I'll be danged if I only allowed 5% of total player base to have the capabilities to experience it. That dungeon is my masterpiece...

 

But I'm not a gaming programmer....I don't know. Maybe they aren't that proud of their work...

  lizardbones

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

2/13/14 9:07:26 PM#172
Originally posted by Kilsin
Originally posted by Elikal
Originally posted by jpnz

If I have 1 hour to watch a TV show or whatever, I'd spend that hour running a couple of dungeons in an MMO.

That kind of logic makes sense right now and it isn't really the amount of time that's the problem.

The problem is that you need 2 hours consecutively for a dungeon like the one you want.

Ask anyone over 35 that's married and has kids about that.

20 mins to an hour here and there for  2 hours total on an evening? Doable, probably.

2 hours consecutively after work at home? ROFL! I wish!

 

The problem is not that you have only 1 hour, the problem is that you feel entitled to have the same in that 1 hour than someone else who wants to invest 5-6 hours.

Absolutely spot on!

 

Given that the rewards are arbitrary, differ from game to game and that the quality of the rewards only makes sense relative to the other content that's available, the whole "entitled" statement doesn't make sense.  There are raids though, and raids take a longer period of time to run, and the rewards are considerably better.  It sounds much more like @jpnz just wants content that's available and fits into the slice of time they are making available for gaming, not that @jpnz is trying to get five or six times the loot for the same time slice that someone else spends in the game.

 

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 5192

2/13/14 9:44:07 PM#173
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Alders

I agree with the OP.

Dungeons of today are simply 30 minute ventures on the way to doing something else.  That's the problem.

No, that is the solution. I want my combat fun fast, challenging, and convenient. I don't want 3 hours commitment of just playing video games.

It is just a preference, and the market decide where is the big enough audience.

 

And as has been pointed out to you oh so many times. You are in the wrong genre. Or at least in some kind of overlap. There are plenty of game out there for you and what you like.

OP and those who agree with him would like to have at least one available to chose from.

 

Edit: I want to clear this up. my statement was worded wrong. I was thinking along the lines of how Nari enjoys games like LOL (the MOBA style game) And that he's approached a lot of Free MMOs in the same fashion.

I did not mean to come across with a GTFO attitude.

"wrong genre"? I don't really care what genre i am in .. i just play fun (to me) games. If MMORPGs want to cater to me, why shouldn't i reap the benefit of having fun?

And in fact, they have to work hard to cater to me, because i am more like to play ARPGs, and SP games. It is up to them.

BTW, actually i don't enjoy MOBA and i do not play LoL although i recognize its success. I am more a ARPG player. D3, PoE, Marvel Heroes .. those are more my thing .. and yes, i approach all my gaming the same fashion. MMO is not special (aside from the fact that they are usually free).

Yes, i am sure the OP wants some games catering to him too .. but that is not my problem.

 

Yes, I corrected that statement in a later post. It was inaccurate for me to say that to you.

Truth is....the genre you are in is the reality. You have what you want. The one I want is no longer a reality so that in and of itself speaks volumes. And that's why I changed my statement. But that doesn't mean I believe this is the way the devs and publishers want it. It's just what they are stuck with.

 

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  plat0nic

Novice Member

Joined: 11/20/03
Posts: 303

2/13/14 10:07:54 PM#174

I just wanna speed grind for my purps man! I agree though op, triple A mmo's with massive pop aren't going to get the old school dungeons. You need a niche market mmorpg .


Main Game: Eldevin (Plat0nic)
2nd Game: Path of Exile (Platonic Hate)

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20515

2/13/14 10:24:31 PM#175
Originally posted by Bossalinie

Here's another perspective,

While I'm not a gaming programmer, I do understand the joys of my clients experiencing my hard work. If I put years and poured my hard-earned work into designing this elaborate, complex, and beautiful dungeon, I'll be danged if I only allowed 5% of total player base to have the capabilities to experience it. That dungeon is my masterpiece...

 

But I'm not a gaming programmer....I don't know. Maybe they aren't that proud of their work...

That was what blizz said ... it is idiotic to spend millions to create raids & dungeons where only 2% of the players will see. That is why we now have LFD, LFR, and difficulty selection.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20515

2/13/14 10:29:18 PM#176
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Truth is....the genre you are in is the reality. You have what you want. The one I want is no longer a reality so that in and of itself speaks volumes. And that's why I changed my statement. But that doesn't mean I believe this is the way the devs and publishers want it. It's just what they are stuck with.

 

"stuck with"? I don't know what they want .. but it is preposterous to assume that you know. How do you know they don't want success with a bigger audience? How do you know they don't want more money? How do you know this kind of gaming is not what they like? Certainly many like it .. may be some devs too.

I don't think it is that unique that what you want is no longer being produced. For example, I like locked room mystery and that has gone out of fashion for decades, and now no one is writing them. But i don't sulk and demand .. i turn to other entertainment (or read the old novels).

We are talking about entertainment here ... there are always other choices .. just like i don't like EQ and UO .. so i stopped playing and have not come back until WoW is into BC.

 

 

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4813

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

2/13/14 10:36:53 PM#177
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by Anthur
Small, linear, closed dungeons with determined rewards
- very easy to develop
- very easy to test
- defined/low technical restrictions allowing better graphics
- short player time investment
- low immersion
- low/no danger
- guaranteed rewards
- low social interaction
- forgotten the moment you finished it

Huge, many branches, open world dungeons
- very difficult to develop
- very difficult to test
- high technical restrictions allowing lesser graphics
- long player time investment
- high immersion
- high danger
- you might end with nothing
- high social interaction
- chance to gather experiences you will remember for a long time

The negative part about the huge dungeoons is the higher time investment. But developers could have come up with a solution for that. They didn't.

They choose the easy way out, small linear dungeons. And one of the major reason imo is that the effort needed to develop/test a huge dungeon compared to 10 small linear dungeons adding up to the same size is exponentially higher.
Everyone who ever was involved with real professional testing knows this.

Developers cheated on us. They created those crappy linear dungeons and people cheered because now we can do them in a more limited time frame and always get our reward. Isn't that great and .... boring ?

The time invested to create vs how many it'll appeal doesn't work here.

Once again, the average age of your typical gamer is 36-37 years old.

That isn't 'I have 5 hours to spend in front of PC' crowd.

where are the people who were 36-37 in the 1990s?

where were the people who are 36-37 no back then? were they 21-22?

then where are the present 16-17 players?

 

why were MMOs attracting one age group 15 years ago and a different age group now?

 

also, why are people out of time when employment is at an all-time low?

 

winter = time with family for holidays.

spring = back to work.

summer = vacation with family.

autumn = back to work/school.

 

seems a fairly unhealthy lifestyle...

  Kevyne-Shandris

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/08
Posts: 1980

You can't † BURY † ¤¤ Holy Paladins ¤¤ As we will always __.- ASCEND -.__

2/13/14 10:37:36 PM#178
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
In all seriousness, I really don't see what eilitism or even the likes and dislikes of players has to do with the number of MMOs in recent years that had to adjust their business models or close down. Other than players dislike the game and/or its business model.

Because you're more interested in promoting your interests.

 

But the crux is, a MMO is a reflection of RL societies, and in turn, there's more playing for their reasons than your own preferences.

 

In short, you want a niche game in a MMO themepark market.

 

Games like WoW, Blizzard found out the hard way in Cata that trying to introduced the "old skool" game play, game preferences change in but 4 years.

 

Gamers are learning the devs don't know their audience nor their needs despite the datamining (e.g., Blizzard was so confident just before MoP in claiming they do know the needs of players as they have the data, then when healers are saying after MoP, "ah, how are we to finish our quests when it'll take forever to kill anything?" And the Blizzard response was, "why would a healer want to DPS?", instead of checking what the MMORPG criteria IS). They cling on certain criteria in making games, and games fall on the wayside when they're too rigid in that criteria. So all that talk about players need to adapt to game changes,gamers learned in one episode, the devs don't follow their own rules and even ignore the genre itself.

 

It's not 2006 anymore, and people who were forced to take "my way or the highway", are now saying, "my $15 is worth your $15". Publishers have to decide niche or themepark to survive and profit now. You bet they don't like it, but forcing people to pay-to-play by their rules (such as 80% funding the 20% toys) created a backlash. Gamers in turn see how the devs backlash, by over simplification (Dragon Soul) or streamlining to the point a MMORPG is turning into a MOBA.

  User Deleted
2/13/14 10:42:31 PM#179

I just want to point something out when comparing D&D dungeons to a typical dungeon in a video game. The more epic D&D dungeons came in a box set, some which could as much as a full AAA video game costs today.

 

Dungeons like "Ruins of Undermountain" would be a separate product in and of themselves, typically a boxed set with maps, quests, npc's, lore, bestiary, encounters, treasure, items, bosses, etc., etc.. "Undermountain" was a dungeon under Waterdeep, a city in Faerun, part of the Forgotten Realms setting. So to have a world setting for that dungeon to exist in, you would also need the Forgotten Realms boxed set, which is another purchase. You would also need a Player's Handbook, a Dungeon Master's guide, a Monster Compendium, and possibly supplemental stuff like the various class handbooks. Oh and a dice set and a DM screen, of course. That'll add up to about $250+ or so for that dungeon in a campaign world with multiple complete classes. Any other full dungeon boxed set for the Forgotten Realms setting would be another $40+. If you bought the full compliment of Forgotten Realms paraphernalia, you'd probably spend over $1000, even if you bought a lot of the books used.

 

So you indeed do end up paying for all the extra content that D&D offers in it's dungeons, (and otherwise). Comparing epic D&D boxed set dungeons to a tiny, low level dungeon from a video game isn't exactly fair. That tiny dungeon is probably just one random small dungeon, not really worthy of note. That dungeon was never intended to be like Castle Greyhawk, it's more like the random cave that you go kill Kobolds in when you're level 2. It's not supposed to be an entire product in and of itself. 

 

 

 

 

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 5192

2/13/14 10:46:59 PM#180
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Truth is....the genre you are in is the reality. You have what you want. The one I want is no longer a reality so that in and of itself speaks volumes. And that's why I changed my statement. But that doesn't mean I believe this is the way the devs and publishers want it. It's just what they are stuck with.

 

"stuck with"? I don't know what they want .. but it is preposterous to assume that you know. How do you know they don't want success with a bigger audience? How do you know they don't want more money? How do you know this kind of gaming is not what they like? Certainly many like it .. may be some devs too.

I don't think it is that unique that what you want is no longer being produced. For example, I like locked room mystery and that has gone out of fashion for decades, and now no one is writing them. But i don't sulk and demand .. i turn to other entertainment (or read the old novels).

We are talking about entertainment here ... there are always other choices .. just like i don't like EQ and UO .. so i stopped playing and have not come back until WoW is into BC.

 

 

I don't think it's so preposterous. You are operating under an assumption. That F2P games make more money than P2P. But that hasn't been proven. You can't look at one successful year and say "SEE!" When over the life of the individual game, the cash shop may have lost them money vs. subs. One year's profit might just be a lucky spike. SWTOR didn't launch with a F2P cash shop EA/BW's business plans were clear about wanting subscriptions. Rift didn't want one either. In fact, early on, Trion was emphatic about Rift remaining P2P.  Lotro didn't launch with the devs thinking I can't wait for this thing to go F2P. Yoshi P of Square Enix explained why P2P Subscriptions are more desireable over F2P cash shops. TESO and Wild Star are launching as sub based model games. Their second choice will be F2P. So yeah, they are "stuck with" that model. How can you say I don't know? 

 

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

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