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Elder Scrolls Online

Elder Scrolls Online 

General Discussion  » Hands on with three ESO dungeons.

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142 posts found
  Arthasm

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/09
Posts: 664

2/13/14 1:19:18 PM#81
I'm not impressed. And yeah, 4 man. :/
  Tamanous

Elite Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 1696

2/13/14 1:28:30 PM#82
Originally posted by Alders

4-man party size.  Kill it with fire!

When will these companies learn?

Guess I need to ask then:

 

Why will players of mmos learn that all mmos are different?

 

ESO's pve game geared toward solo and small group encounters to closer reflect on their single player games. It isn't a raid game although there will be raid encounters and of course large scale pvp.

 

Not all mmos need to be the same nor automatically be exactly like mmos that came before them. Hopefully when information about raid level encounters come out it will please many who want larger group sizes. Even then it sounds like forming a group is only required when deciding to take on tough encounters as most will be open zone/dungeons where it isn't required to be in a large group to initially enter.

 

There will be other EQ style games to come if that is what some players want. Always good to have variety.

You stay sassy!

  Lord.Bachus

Elite Member

Joined: 5/14/07
Posts: 8591

I believe in life before death... So dont forget to enjoy it while you still can.

2/13/14 1:28:42 PM#83
Originally posted by Arthasm
I'm not impressed. And yeah, 4 man. :/

I am impressed...  But 4 man?   ....  Its one of the things EQ did better, 6 man groupsize still the best...  Why would you ever want to chnage things that worked perfect in EQ..

 

however, since you can creat larger groups in open world elite areas and Pvp and adventure zones.. Its not a big thing to me.... But.

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  Arataki

Novice Member

Joined: 12/19/07
Posts: 243

2/13/14 1:31:53 PM#84
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
Originally posted by Arthasm
I'm not impressed. And yeah, 4 man. :/

I am impressed...  But 4 man?   ....  Its one of the things EQ did better, 6 man groupsize still the best...  Why would you ever want to chnage things that worked perfect in EQ..

 

however, since you can creat larger groups in open world elite areas and Pvp and adventure zones.. Its not a big thing to me.... But.

...I'm going to state the obvious here.

It's not EQ.

Doesn't play like EQ. Mobs don't act like EQ mobs. There are no EQ classes, EQ abilities, EQ items.

So the group size that worked for EQ? Worked in EQ. Great.

This is ESO.

Now if you were going to argue, with evidence, that 4 was too small a size for ESOs mechanics and game system, then that's a different story.

  Mackaveli44

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/26/08
Posts: 122

2/13/14 1:36:14 PM#85
Originally posted by AndrewGoat

Fun? I heard, according to the know it all media and forum goers, that this game can't be fun. I mean, look at all the unfun in that video. How far they have to run. Man, those horses are so expensive. They clearly also had to have all 4 people be Imperials for those boss fights. Man, what an unfun game. This game will tank being so unfun.

 

:)

The media didnt have enough time with the game.  1-10 is not any sign of how the game starts to become post 15ish.  I cant say much cause of the NDA but I will say this, the media did NOT have sufficient time to make a sound judgment call on the game.  It gets stronger and stronger the more you play it.  On top of that, most media people are paid from sources to be bias in some ways so dont judge a media preview all that much.  Its all BS.  Again, they had inadaquate time with the game. 

  Draemos

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/10
Posts: 1459

2/13/14 1:37:14 PM#86
Originally posted by Flyte27
It looked fun, but no one seemed to ever be in much danger of dying in the entire video.  The only one that seemed to lose much health was the tank.

From everyone I've heard that's played those dungeons, they are nowhere near as easy as the video shows.  Your watching a group of players from closed beta that are well versed in the game, have experience in those dungeons, and who are also on the high end level range of that content.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3778

2/13/14 1:41:05 PM#87
Originally posted by Draemos
Originally posted by Flyte27
It looked fun, but no one seemed to ever be in much danger of dying in the entire video.  The only one that seemed to lose much health was the tank.

From everyone I've heard that's played those dungeons, they are nowhere near as easy as the video shows.  Your watching a group of players from closed beta that are well versed in the game, have experience in those dungeons, and who are also on the high end level range of that content.

Exactly. Have fun pugging those lol

 

This was Atropos and his guild mates from the Tamriel Foundry. They knew what they were doing and they did it well.

  Lord.Bachus

Elite Member

Joined: 5/14/07
Posts: 8591

I believe in life before death... So dont forget to enjoy it while you still can.

2/13/14 1:41:25 PM#88
Originally posted by SavageHorizon
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
Obviously every of the 3 times 5 zones has its own dungeon... Making for a total of 15 dungeons...  From which 11 are at max level... Sounds like a good amount

Lol, Vanguard shipped with over 100 open world dungeons and many of them are vast and span multiple levels. Some took days/week to complete with puzzles and all kinds of traps and dungeons within dungeons.

Sounds like a good amount lmfao, really?

Well.. But then vanguard was never finished and i hate playing unfinished games...  I got sick of the low quallity annimations in vanguard..   The game that could have been, but never got finished, a bloody shame

 

And keep in mind that those are just the instanced group based dungeons,  every zone also has a few open world dungeons of several sizes,   And then i am not talking of the multitude of instanced story dungeons in every of the 15 zones, or the adventure zones which are 24 man content,,

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2719

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

2/13/14 1:44:48 PM#89
Glad this was posted.  Hopefully the information about Adventure Zones is forthcoming because I'll be honest as a Dungeon Delver and explorer predominant player this video got me excited.  Unfortunately It means I'll have to slog through so many levels of uninspiring and generic questing and horrible starter zones that last 4-5 hours too long.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  arieste

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 3308

2/13/14 1:47:23 PM#90
Originally posted by Arataki

...I'm going to state the obvious here.

It's not EQ.

Doesn't play like EQ. Mobs don't act like EQ mobs. There are no EQ classes, EQ abilities, EQ items.

So the group size that worked for EQ? Worked in EQ. Great.

This is ESO.

Now if you were going to argue, with evidence, that 4 was too small a size for ESOs mechanics and game system, then that's a different story.

I'm going to state the obvious here too:

 

It's an MMO.

Most MMOs have had group sizes larger than 4.   

This has nothing to do with the specific content - content can be designed for 5 or 6 as easily as for 4.  

I don't really have any concerns about 4-man dungeons providing an excellent and challenging experience.

 

My concern is for community.  The smaller the group, the less spaces to fill in any given group, the less groups LFM, the less grouping overall, the less community.  In most games, group content can be done with 1 or 2 less people than it's designed for - 6-man dungeons generally can be done with 5 capable players, 5 man with 4, etc.      When you cut it done to 4 max, chances are that they can be done with 3 or even 2.   When you get to so few people needed to form a group, you end up with tons of preset groups of just friends and guildies, basically cliques of players that never group with the greater community.   This type of stuff happens in any game, but it's a lot tougher to have a set 5-6 person group than it is to have 3-4.   

 

Dungeons look great, i do wish the max group size was bigger, just for community purposes.  

"I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

- Raph Koster

Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2
Currently Playing: EQ2, Firefall

  Damedius

Novice Member

Joined: 3/13/13
Posts: 338

2/13/14 1:47:31 PM#91
Originally posted by azzamasin
Glad this was posted.  Hopefully the information about Adventure Zones is forthcoming because I'll be honest as a Dungeon Delver and explorer predominant player this video got me excited.  Unfortunately It means I'll have to slog through so many levels of uninspiring and generic questing and horrible starter zones that last 4-5 hours too long.

I don't think all starter zones are equal.

I think one everyone is complaining about is the Daggerfall Covenant one. I could be wrong though.

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2719

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

2/13/14 1:48:27 PM#92
Originally posted by Arthasm
I'm not impressed. And yeah, 4 man. :/

As someone who plays primarily DPS classes this is another issue that I fear will rear its ugly head.  5 man WoW style dungeons was already hard for most DPS classes to find groups.  Restrict that group comp down to 2 DPS's and I shudder to think the time spent in queue for dungeons as a DPS'er.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  Arataki

Novice Member

Joined: 12/19/07
Posts: 243

2/13/14 1:48:41 PM#93
Originally posted by Damedius
Originally posted by azzamasin
Glad this was posted.  Hopefully the information about Adventure Zones is forthcoming because I'll be honest as a Dungeon Delver and explorer predominant player this video got me excited.  Unfortunately It means I'll have to slog through so many levels of uninspiring and generic questing and horrible starter zones that last 4-5 hours too long.

I don't think all starter zones are equal.

I think one everyone is complaining about is the Daggerfall Covenant one. I could be wrong though.

Personally I think it must have been the Ebonheart Pact one.

  Draemos

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/10
Posts: 1459

2/13/14 1:50:56 PM#94
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
Originally posted by Arthasm
I'm not impressed. And yeah, 4 man. :/

I am impressed...  But 4 man?   ....  Its one of the things EQ did better, 6 man groupsize still the best...  Why would you ever want to chnage things that worked perfect in EQ..

 

however, since you can creat larger groups in open world elite areas and Pvp and adventure zones.. Its not a big thing to me.... But.

I like 4 man.  It's way easier to get a core group of competent players, and good players are rewarded for being good.  In 6 man groups your always carrying around at least one or two mouth-breathers.  If you're shit at the game, there is no where to hide in a 4 man dungeon group.

  BBPD766

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/10
Posts: 99

2/13/14 1:52:42 PM#95
Originally posted by Arataki
Originally posted by arieste
Originally posted by BBPD766
 i've also made it quite clear (again) what design IS fun for me.

consider me stupid then, because it's still not quite clear to me.  what game has the type of dungeon you enjoy?  maybe i missed a post. 

Don't bother waiting for a coherent answer. This is a common problem among armchair developers, they can't tell you what they want or how to even go about implementing it. It's the same cognitive dissonance people that want quest choice to 'matter' but then deride phasing or instances and no idea how to resolve the issue of a persistent world.

Dungeons that change?

How? Randomized maps? Mobs? Completely different dungeon for no reason?

You won't get an answer arieste.

 

This is a coherent answer. And it was CLEARLY spelled out in the original post. Perhaps you should actually READ before you reply.  By NOT having mobs in the SAME PLACE OVER AND OVER and doing the SAME types of damage to you / fighting you the SAME WAY so that they are predictable OVER AND OVER AND OVER each time you play it. How many times does it need to be said?

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2719

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

2/13/14 1:53:17 PM#96
Originally posted by arieste
Originally posted by Arataki

...I'm going to state the obvious here.

It's not EQ.

Doesn't play like EQ. Mobs don't act like EQ mobs. There are no EQ classes, EQ abilities, EQ items.

So the group size that worked for EQ? Worked in EQ. Great.

This is ESO.

Now if you were going to argue, with evidence, that 4 was too small a size for ESOs mechanics and game system, then that's a different story.

 

My concern is for community.  The smaller the group, the less spaces to fill in any given group, the less groups LFM, the less grouping overall, the less community.  In most games, group content can be done with 1 or 2 less people than it's designed for - 6-man dungeons generally can be done with 5 capable players, 5 man with 4, etc.      When you cut it done to 4 max, chances are that they can be done with 3 or even 2.   When you get to so few people needed to form a group, you end up with tons of preset groups of just friends and guildies, basically cliques of players that never group with the greater community.   This type of stuff happens in any game, but it's a lot tougher to have a set 5-6 person group than it is to have 3-4.   

 

Dungeons look great, i do wish the max group size was bigger, just for community purposes.  

While I doubt this to be the case due to adds and other mechanics I think you're forgetting a couple things. 

  1. This game starts with a very intuitive LFG/Dungeon Finder system.
  2. Preset groups are highly more organized and fun then random PUG's  If the games dungeons are easily puggable then the content is trivial for organized groups and this is bad.
I do agree that having at a minimum of 6 players is preferable although I'd love to see minimum of 9 like Asheron's Call.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  udon

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/23/07
Posts: 1605

2/13/14 1:53:30 PM#97
Originally posted by Mackaveli44
Originally posted by AndrewGoat

Fun? I heard, according to the know it all media and forum goers, that this game can't be fun. I mean, look at all the unfun in that video. How far they have to run. Man, those horses are so expensive. They clearly also had to have all 4 people be Imperials for those boss fights. Man, what an unfun game. This game will tank being so unfun.

 

:)

The media didnt have enough time with the game.  1-10 is not any sign of how the game starts to become post 15ish.  I cant say much cause of the NDA but I will say this, the media did NOT have sufficient time to make a sound judgment call on the game.  It gets stronger and stronger the more you play it.  On top of that, most media people are paid from sources to be bias in some ways so dont judge a media preview all that much.  Its all BS.  Again, they had inadaquate time with the game. 

I only played to level 14 but it was easy to see how the games mechanics where really starting to ramp up.  ESO is a game that gains steam slowly and combined with a snail pace leveling speed compared to modern MMO's I can see where so many of the negative comments from people who only played the first 10 levels or so come from.  But has any modern TES game been any different?  I mean if you where level 10 in a hour it just wouldn't have the pacing of a Elder Scrolls game.  They are suppose to start slow and build over time rather than just wiz your though the first 20 levels in a couple hours.

I can only imagine that higher levels gain at about the same pace so while early levels come slower than you would expect later levels will be faster evening out the experience much more lineally.  That's not a bad thing in my mind.

  Draemos

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/10
Posts: 1459

2/13/14 1:55:41 PM#98
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by Arthasm
I'm not impressed. And yeah, 4 man. :/

As someone who plays primarily DPS classes this is another issue that I fear will rear its ugly head.  5 man WoW style dungeons was already hard for most DPS classes to find groups.  Restrict that group comp down to 2 DPS's and I shudder to think the time spent in queue for dungeons as a DPS'er.

 

You can change from a DPS to a Healer or a DPS to a tank with a quick weapon swap.  Most players will be a mix of multiple roles.  Consider the "healer" in this group.  He's putting down two AoE heal over times and then relying on the Templar's healing and the Dragonknights personal heals to deal with spike damage while he does other things.

It's a non issue.

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2719

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

2/13/14 1:55:42 PM#99
Originally posted by Arataki
Originally posted by Damedius
Originally posted by azzamasin
Glad this was posted.  Hopefully the information about Adventure Zones is forthcoming because I'll be honest as a Dungeon Delver and explorer predominant player this video got me excited.  Unfortunately It means I'll have to slog through so many levels of uninspiring and generic questing and horrible starter zones that last 4-5 hours too long.

I don't think all starter zones are equal.

I think one everyone is complaining about is the Daggerfall Covenant one. I could be wrong though.

Personally I think it must have been the Ebonheart Pact one.

Ebonheart was ok. Aldmeri was atrocious and Daggerfall was passable.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2719

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

2/13/14 1:56:51 PM#100
Originally posted by Draemos
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by Arthasm
I'm not impressed. And yeah, 4 man. :/

As someone who plays primarily DPS classes this is another issue that I fear will rear its ugly head.  5 man WoW style dungeons was already hard for most DPS classes to find groups.  Restrict that group comp down to 2 DPS's and I shudder to think the time spent in queue for dungeons as a DPS'er.

 

You can change from a DPS to a Healer or a DPS to a tank with a quick weapon swap.  Most players will be a mix of multiple roles.  Consider the "healer" in this group.  He's putting down two AoE heal over times and then relying on the Templar's healing and the Dragonknights personal heals to deal with spike damage while he does other things.

It's a non issue.

I have no desire to ever play a tank or a healer.  Not my mea culpa and I'll never do it.  Because that is not my preference.  I'm all about the deeps!

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

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