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General Discussion  » So the general census is that TESO should be F2P and not P2P?

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113 posts found
  GregorMcgregor

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 194

2/11/14 12:54:08 PM#21
Originally posted by Ender4

I don't think it should be free to play but that is the only amount I would personally pay for it because I don't think it is a very good product. I think the generic payment model for an MMO should be buy the box and play without a monthly fee and then if they want they can add cosmetic junk to a cash shop or not.

I didn't buy Skyrim when it was full price either though, so I'm on about the same level that I was with the last game in the series.

The B2P idea is like communism; it looks and sounds great, but doesn't work (for lots of reasons).

Take GW2 for example... Sure it was B2P, and the cash shop was for fluff. But they weren't making enough cash from fluff (and no wonder at dye pots for each character... get tae!).

So they then nerf drops/looting to the point that if you wanted to craft yourself gear you had to use the cash for gold convertor, OR grind dungeons to make cash then buy the mats needed (Which was awesome from a game with no grind! Or so they said).

Would you end up spending more than $15 per month? Maybe not (my guess is players with alts would be screaming!) but at least with the sub you get anything, no "Need more arrows? ONLY $5!!!".

And B2P still feeds off the F2P whales.

Love subs or hate them, but they are the only honest choice - you know what your getting and arnt forced into cash shop purchases!

:)

 

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  Khalathwyr

Tipster

Joined: 6/02/04
Posts: 3151

Google is your friend.

2/11/14 1:03:14 PM#22

I prefer sandbox games over themepark. I also prefer a subscription over F2P.

Those out or the way I will be playing this (have pre purchased) and paying for 2 subs (wife). This is about as palatable as a themepark game can get for me. I will play for a few months until I get into the Pathfinder Online Early Enrollment in Q3. Whether I play after that point will be determined by continued fun playing TESO. I know that if they went to F2P I would be very less interested to play. One of the great things about subscriptions is that it weeds out most of those loud mouths that just like to go around bashing games for any and everything. Most of those types won't spend money to do that. A few will, but not as many if there is a subscription barrier.

Last thing I need in my game time is a bunch of negative nancies and wendy whiners.

"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."

Kickstarter 1 / Naysayers 0

  Baikal

Tipster

Joined: 9/20/04
Posts: 1028

2/11/14 1:05:38 PM#23

To be honest, I've tried to stay away from the lead-up to this title, because I wanted to see it for what it was, not hype, not hearing people complain that the dev's promised "X", and delivered "Y", and so on, that said, I started to dig again after the beta weekend last month, and I don't think I've seen much of a consensus of anything. What I have seen is a bunch of people arguing that whatever they like, is what it should be, and that people who don't agree with 'em are less than bright. Silly right?

I don't think I've ever played or not played an MMO based on it's pay style. If I like the game, I play it, if I don't I don't, it's pretty simple. The extra cost doesn't factor into the equation. Granted I don't play multiple MMO's at the same time, and I respect that people choose to do that, but honestly, other than a part of the MMO community, I really don't think it's that big a sticking point for many people.

However, ESO might be the first time it really could be, simply because the way Zenimax is marketing, and the ESO name is synonymous with single player RPO's, I wonder how many console gamers who don't follow these forums will buy the game, and be surprised when they have to pay to play.

  ElirionLoth

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/20/12
Posts: 156

2/11/14 1:06:41 PM#24
Originally posted by Khalathwyr

I prefer sandbox games over themepark. I also prefer a subscription over F2P.

Those out or the way I will be playing this (have pre purchased) and paying for 2 subs (wife). This is about as palatable as a themepark game can get for me. I will play for a few months until I get into the Pathfinder Online Early Enrollment in Q3. Whether I play after that point will be determined by continued fun playing TESO. I know that if they went to F2P I would be very less interested to play. One of the great things about subscriptions is that it weeds out most of those loud mouths that just like to go around bashing games for any and everything. Most of those types won't spend money to do that. A few will, but not as many if there is a subscription barrier.

Last thing I need in my game time is a bunch of negative nancies and wendy whiners.

I'm with you 100% on this.  Can't stand all of the idiot trolls in world/area chat on F2P games.

  Clywd

Novice Member

Joined: 8/28/10
Posts: 245

2/11/14 1:11:36 PM#25
Imho the subscription is one of the positive things about teso...

Currently playing: EQ1
Ruptura Draconis
Waiting for Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen

  Fusion

Old School

Joined: 5/21/03
Posts: 1359

2/11/14 1:12:08 PM#26
Originally posted by GregorMcgregor
Originally posted by Ender4

I don't think it should be free to play but that is the only amount I would personally pay for it because I don't think it is a very good product. I think the generic payment model for an MMO should be buy the box and play without a monthly fee and then if they want they can add cosmetic junk to a cash shop or not.

I didn't buy Skyrim when it was full price either though, so I'm on about the same level that I was with the last game in the series.

The B2P idea is like communism; it looks and sounds great, but doesn't work (for lots of reasons).

Take GW2 for example... Sure it was B2P, and the cash shop was for fluff. But they weren't making enough cash from fluff (and no wonder at dye pots for each character... get tae!).

So they then nerf drops/looting to the point that if you wanted to craft yourself gear you had to use the cash for gold convertor, OR grind dungeons to make cash then buy the mats needed (Which was awesome from a game with no grind! Or so they said).

Would you end up spending more than $15 per month? Maybe not (my guess is players with alts would be screaming!) but at least with the sub you get anything, no "Need more arrows? ONLY $5!!!".

And B2P still feeds off the F2P whales.

Love subs or hate them, but they are the only honest choice - you know what your getting and arnt forced into cash shop purchases!

:)

 

Great words that i wholeheartedly agree with.

That last remark will get the flames burning with comments like "you aren't forced", "you don't have to spend", such comments come from clouded minds.

Currently playing: -

Waiting for: Class4.

Dead and Buried: ESO, NWO, GW2, SWTOR, Darkfall, AO, AC2, Vanguard, CoH/V, EnB, EVE, Neocron, FE, EQ, EQ2, DAoC, FFXI, FFXIV, SWG, WoW, and billions of eastern junks!

  collekt

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/05/13
Posts: 207

2/11/14 1:13:03 PM#27
Woo another F2P thread, JUST what we needed! Games that are F2P have to make their money elsewhere which leads to cash shops and all that nonsense. Stick with the sub and throw the middle finger to the greedy kids that don't want to spend the price of a fast food meal once a month to play.
  boxsnd

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/04/12
Posts: 399

2/11/14 1:14:20 PM#28
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

So far payment type has never been a factor of a games succes..

 

there is only one thing that matters and thats quallity or fun....   If people enjoy what they see, it sells... And as long as they enjoy the game, they will keep spending money...

Payment type is ALWAYS a factor in an MMO's success. Some MMOs are good enough for box price+sub+cash shop (WoW/EVE), some aren't but are good enough for F2P/B2P (for example SWTOR, TERA, GW2, TSW, Rift etc.), and some aren't good for any model and get shut down. The only one of those last 5 games that is considered successful is GW2, because it launched with the correct business model.

The big question is: Is ESO good enough to have box price + sub + cash shop + preorder perks? No way. Is it good enough to be B2P/F2P? Probably. B2P would probably be the best option since it is the same business model of all previous ES games.

DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann

  udon

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/23/07
Posts: 1605

2/11/14 1:16:30 PM#29

F2P and the rise of casual MMO's where you can solo the entire experience to little detriment go hand in hand.  Lowering the barrier to entry and making your money back on the players at the top end is a great business strategy but it forces those games and really the industry as a whole to adopt a F2P friendly play model.  EQ1 hell even EQ2 in it's original form would have never worked as a F2P game because it demanded to much from players early on to hold the attention of people who don't have anything invested in the game and could just as easily jump to a different title than try and solve a difficult issue.  It was only after EQ2 "streamlined" the 1-cap experience that the title became viable for F2P.

The pacing of levels and some of the more difficult fights reminded me a bit of these older sub games that where built as sub games.  I think it has more to do with being a TES title than a throw back to older style of MMO play but regardless Zenimax would have to "streamline" the leveling process significantly to make this a F2P title.  It just doesn't have the constant spoon feed rewards especially at the beginning to keep the average F2P gamer engaged.

Having said that I do think ESO could work as a B2P model with bi-monthly DLC packs or so assuming they can stay away from the siren call of Lock Boxes and real world to game currency conversions.  Given that TSW just implemented lock boxes I think it's safe to say that's a tall if.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3778

2/11/14 1:19:19 PM#30
Originally posted by boxsnd
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

So far payment type has never been a factor of a games succes..

 

there is only one thing that matters and thats quallity or fun....   If people enjoy what they see, it sells... And as long as they enjoy the game, they will keep spending money...

Payment type is ALWAYS a factor in an MMO's success. Some MMOs are good enough for box price+sub+cash shop (WoW/EVE), some aren't but are good enough for F2P/B2P (for example SWTOR, TERA, GW2, TSW, Rift etc.), and some aren't good for any model and get shut down. The only one of those last 5 games that is considered successful is GW2, because it launched with the correct business model.

The big question is: Is ESO good enough to have box price + sub + cash shop + preorder perks? No way. Is it good enough to be B2P/F2P? Probably. B2P would probably be the best option since it is the same business model of all previous ES games.

I'd love to hear what your definition of a cash shop is. And please tell me where to find it.

 

Also, it sounds like you're saying that you're willing to play anything if it's free. Or don't you guys get that the logical conclusion to "not good enough for a sub" is that what you do with your gaming time is not important to you...only the money is.

  collekt

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/05/13
Posts: 207

2/11/14 1:21:49 PM#31
Originally posted by boxsnd
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

So far payment type has never been a factor of a games succes..

 

there is only one thing that matters and thats quallity or fun....   If people enjoy what they see, it sells... And as long as they enjoy the game, they will keep spending money...

Payment type is ALWAYS a factor in an MMO's success. Some MMOs are good enough for box price+sub+cash shop (WoW/EVE), some aren't but are good enough for F2P/B2P (for example SWTOR, TERA, GW2, TSW, Rift etc.), and some aren't good for any model and get shut down. The only one of those last 5 games that is considered successful is GW2, because it launched with the correct business model.

The big question is: Is ESO good enough to have box price + sub + cash shop + preorder perks? No way. Is it good enough to be B2P/F2P? Probably. B2P would probably be the best option since it is the same business model of all previous ES games.

Why should it have the same business model as past ES games? It's a completely different kind of game.

  onlinenow25

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/26/07
Posts: 279

2/11/14 1:21:57 PM#32
Originally posted by boxsnd
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

So far payment type has never been a factor of a games succes..

 

there is only one thing that matters and thats quallity or fun....   If people enjoy what they see, it sells... And as long as they enjoy the game, they will keep spending money...

Payment type is ALWAYS a factor in an MMO's success. Some MMOs are good enough for box price+sub+cash shop (WoW/EVE), some aren't but are good enough for F2P/B2P (for example SWTOR, TERA, GW2, TSW, Rift etc.), and some aren't good for any model and get shut down. The only one of those last 5 games that is considered successful is GW2, because it launched with the correct business model.

The big question is: Is ESO good enough to have box price + sub + cash shop + preorder perks? No way. Is it good enough to be B2P/F2P? Probably. B2P would probably be the best option since it is the same business model of all previous ES games.

100% Agree, not just based on the game experience its self but on the IP as well.  B2P fits the Elder Scrolls very well simply due to them being single player games and to take an IP based on single player games and try to create it the way Zenimax did does not cause the game to be worth the cost.

 

As a side note, cost is a big deal when it comes to what to purchase.  Look at Steam if you want proof of this.  How many of those indie games such as Binding of Isaac would be bought if they were $60 bucks + a sub fee?  Yes different games, and many being single player, but the concept is still there.  

Value for Cost is something that as a consumer we should ALL take into consideration.  But that is not to say each person is exactly the same, so what one person says is worth it, another won't, and in the end it will be up to the individual consumer to decide if the cost is worth the value.

  Hariken

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/15/13
Posts: 466

2/11/14 1:23:19 PM#33
Why would i want to drop 15 a month on it when i can keep playing my modded Skyrim which offers me more than this mmo will. There's nothing in this game where you can't say there's a mod for that. The only thing this game offers is playing online which frankly for a Tes game has always been a bad idea to me. You will not get the feeling of being in a living world from any mmo today. Just imagine what the chat will be like in this game or just other players running around in my Tes game kills it for me. I know alot of Tes players that feel the same as i do. A true Tes game is not an mmo. I think when this game has been out for a few months others Tes fans will start feeling the same that don't now. The only one i see really getting into this are the fans of mmo's not singleplayer Tes games. Since the begining there have always been those players that wanted to play online and this is for them.
  Searias

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/23/08
Posts: 666

2/11/14 1:23:23 PM#34
Originally posted by cronius77

no this is 150% the free to play crowd screaming for it not being worth its cost monthly. Also its the sandbox crowd screaming its going to be all doom and gloom because it has quests in it and you cant play lego's all day. This game is coming out on consoles and pc , This game contrary to this sites jaded members beliefs will not be free to play for a very VERY long time unless it completely tanks on PS4 and Xbox which I highly doubt. 15 bucks a month is water in a bucket compared to the high prices of a cash shop in the end.

This ^

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  dontadow

Novice Member

Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 1045

2/11/14 1:23:31 PM#35
Originally posted by GregorMcgregor
Originally posted by Ender4

I don't think it should be free to play but that is the only amount I would personally pay for it because I don't think it is a very good product. I think the generic payment model for an MMO should be buy the box and play without a monthly fee and then if they want they can add cosmetic junk to a cash shop or not.

I didn't buy Skyrim when it was full price either though, so I'm on about the same level that I was with the last game in the series.

The B2P idea is like communism; it looks and sounds great, but doesn't work (for lots of reasons).

Take GW2 for example... Sure it was B2P, and the cash shop was for fluff. But they weren't making enough cash from fluff (and no wonder at dye pots for each character... get tae!).

So they then nerf drops/looting to the point that if you wanted to craft yourself gear you had to use the cash for gold convertor, OR grind dungeons to make cash then buy the mats needed (Which was awesome from a game with no grind! Or so they said).

Would you end up spending more than $15 per month? Maybe not (my guess is players with alts would be screaming!) but at least with the sub you get anything, no "Need more arrows? ONLY $5!!!".

And B2P still feeds off the F2P whales.

Love subs or hate them, but they are the only honest choice - you know what your getting and arnt forced into cash shop purchases!

:)

 

Are they honest. The person who plays twice a month pays the same price as the person who plays 30 times a months. As for GW2, I've only had to grind in the game when I wanted to grind, when I wanted ascended weapon. I still can do endgame content without it and still have a ball. Cosmetic is what cosmetic is. There is no real reason that you need the stuff.

  collekt

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/05/13
Posts: 207

2/11/14 1:26:59 PM#36
I'm not saying it should or shouldn't be B2P, but using the reasoning of past Elder Scrolls games having that business model is completely retarded. Past ES games were not MMOs, they were single player games that didn't require server upkeep and what not. This logic is stupid. It's like saying WoW shouldn't have launched with a sub because Warcraft didn't have one. 
  MajiinX

Novice Member

Joined: 5/30/07
Posts: 85

2/11/14 1:32:17 PM#37
Originally posted by retye50
Nope, disagree...I dont mind paying $15 dollars a month. Hell, I can spend that in one night at the bar.

OMG dude where do you live cause I need to move there! I live in New York and me and my fiancé can easily run up a $100+ bar tab ordering Jack and Cokes and beer.

  udon

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/23/07
Posts: 1605

2/11/14 1:32:20 PM#38
Originally posted by Hariken
Why would i want to drop 15 a month on it when i can keep playing my modded Skyrim which offers me more than this mmo will. There's nothing in this game where you can't say there's a mod for that. The only thing this game offers is playing online which frankly for a Tes game has always been a bad idea to me. You will not get the feeling of being in a living world from any mmo today. Just imagine what the chat will be like in this game or just other players running around in my Tes game kills it for me. I know alot of Tes players that feel the same as i do. A true Tes game is not an mmo. I think when this game has been out for a few months others Tes fans will start feeling the same that don't now. The only one i see really getting into this are the fans of mmo's not singleplayer Tes games. Since the begining there have always been those players that wanted to play online and this is for them.

This is a problem for Zenimax for sure.  I have a couple friends who are big TES fans but don't play MMO's and they really have very little interest in this game.  Their feeling is this game will have all the downsides of playing in a MMO with non of the upsides of playing a Elder Scrolls game and it's hard for me to argue with them honestly.  The way open world zones are phased will help but at the end of the day unless Zenimax can prove to these fans who have little to no interest in multiplayer content that the $15 a month is getting them something of value they won't do it.  That and the rumbling about light end game PVE content is why I think Zenimax is banking on PVP to make or break this game.  If the PVP shows itself to be engaging long term than players won't care if it's $15 a month or what the pace of new PVE content is but if it's not than that monthly sub fee is going to begin to look steep very fast.

  Raunu

Novice Member

Joined: 3/18/04
Posts: 486

2/11/14 1:36:31 PM#39
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

So far payment type has never been a factor of a games succes..

 

there is only one thing that matters and thats quallity or fun....   If people enjoy what they see, it sells... And as long as they enjoy the game, they will keep spending money...

This isn't exactly true. Lineage 2 is an example of a game that was doing poorly in the west a couple years ago, and then they went F2P and began making much more money.  L2 probably has one of the best F2P models IMHO.

Now I would like to point out that if L2's F2P model was released on a brand new game, I wouldn't like it so much because XP boosting items are in the item shop. Other than that, I think it's great.

- - "What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?" - -

  boxsnd

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/04/12
Posts: 399

2/11/14 1:41:42 PM#40
Originally posted by collekt
Originally posted by boxsnd
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

So far payment type has never been a factor of a games succes..

 

there is only one thing that matters and thats quallity or fun....   If people enjoy what they see, it sells... And as long as they enjoy the game, they will keep spending money...

Payment type is ALWAYS a factor in an MMO's success. Some MMOs are good enough for box price+sub+cash shop (WoW/EVE), some aren't but are good enough for F2P/B2P (for example SWTOR, TERA, GW2, TSW, Rift etc.), and some aren't good for any model and get shut down. The only one of those last 5 games that is considered successful is GW2, because it launched with the correct business model.

The big question is: Is ESO good enough to have box price + sub + cash shop + preorder perks? No way. Is it good enough to be B2P/F2P? Probably. B2P would probably be the best option since it is the same business model of all previous ES games.

Why should it have the same business model as past ES games? It's a completely different kind of game.

With THAT combat/UI/animations It is pretty much exclusively targeted to ES fans. 

DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann

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