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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » 2004 v. 2014: The State of the MMO Genre

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171 posts found
  KaosProphet

Novice Member

Joined: 8/31/12
Posts: 384

2/06/14 4:10:07 AM#61
Originally posted by skyline385
Originally posted by KaosProphet
Originally posted by jesteralways
Originally posted by Zaiel12
There is a high demand for a quality MMO that is old school and unforgiving. Attempts at it have been shit though, so that market goes smaller. You do not need to put massive amounts of money, and polish into a game for it to be successful. Gaming as a whole is going towards this indie movement. MMOs will have some glory in the indie market, but that will require a small development core that is truly dedicated to the game, and not the cash it generates (Im looking at you AV). MMOs were never intentionally made to be a huge money generator. It just so happened that WoW became larger then anyone could have imagined, so the bar was set there. I mean despite Call of Duty making billions on the FPS market there is still quality FPS games coming out left and right. Development on an MMO is completely different then and FPS but the point is you don't need to copy one recipe to be a success or even aim so high to be the number one game out there. Developers need to set the par the community within it raises, not the preset standards on the genre based on a ten year old behemoth.

Yes and Darkfall is perfect example of how those "quality old school and unforgiving mmo"  fail these days. when people like you decide to ganbang new players as soon as they are out of safe zone and day by day people leave; people like you go on and say it's developers fault for not making a "quality" mmo and "not listening to player base" when in truth they did a wonderful job giving players a vast world to play with and a lot more that the "giant wow" don't even provide but still it failed. why? because people like you who wants old school unforgiving mmo kills it. you are severely minority, it is high time you and people like you stop playing mmo and play fps instead. bye bye. 

Near as I can tell, Pantheon is selling itself as an "old school and unforgiving PVE mmo."

Think your beef will apply to them as well?

Well the game only has 2.6K backers till now and the PvP grieving jester is talking about unlocks at 3.5Million which i doubt it will reach. The phrase you are using is them talking about the PvE probably.

All I see at 3.5million is arenas and dueling - a far cry from the 'grieving' people associate with Darkfall or other FFA games,  and so far down the stretch as to (as you say) be virtually unattainable.  Safe to say that's really not what the game is about at all.

So the question remains.

  GuyClinch

Novice Member

Joined: 9/28/13
Posts: 475

2/06/14 4:15:14 AM#62

"Quality? I wouldn't say so. THe feature lists of most modern MMOs is far FAR shorter than the ones we had in pre WoW days. THe funny thing is, while those old MMOs are considered "niche", they allowed for so many styles of play in ONE game world. IN WoW clones, you quest grind, or do nothing."

Failure for people like you is a game that doesn't keep you occupied for 10 years. But the real test of failure is if an MMO provides a return on investment. WoW makes 10x their initial investment in pure profit every year. SWTOR seems to be pretty profitale as well - even assuming a 400million dollar price tag. And GW2 with its modest pricetag already has but Arenanet in the black.

As far as all these good points of old school MMOs - you are goign to have to explain what you mean. I played EQ - it wasnt' that much different then WoW. It was certanly more harsh and had less quests but the basic goal of killing stuff and getting better loot was just like WoW.

FWIW you don't quest grind in WoW - you raid. And you don't quest grind in GW2..so your attacks against modern games seem kinda made up.

  Maquiame

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/21/07
Posts: 623

Power without perception is spiritually useless and of no true value

2/06/14 4:17:39 AM#63

I always thought real gamers cared about good games not about who sold the most in a cash shop

*shrugs* 

 

Carry on...

Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!

  Akerbeltz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/12/13
Posts: 151

2/06/14 6:16:51 AM#64

I cannot agree more with the points made by the OP and other posters.

 

Yes, nowawadays MMORPGs, especially the so called "AAAs":

 

- Have less functional scope and less features, resulting in less longevity.

- Have forgotten what RPG is to lean towards the Arcade.

- Are based on addiction and impulsive behaviour instead of on creativity and ability to solve complex problems.

- Do not rely or respect gamers' intelligence and capacity for thinking, instead they hand-hold, tunnel-vision the player and provide with twitch-based gaming as the main form of entertainment.

- Are all about presentation and nothing about substance: Resort to bells and whistles to help keep attention (same as the gambling machines...) and marketing pyrotechnics to drag consumers.

- Cater to the lowest-common-denominator instead of focusing on niche consumers that would be more loyal on the long term.

 

Although I wrote this for another game, it's relevant in this discussion:

 

SYSTEMIC PROBLEMS OF THE VIDEOGAME INDUSTRY

- The most important in my view: The idea that a product must be accessible to everyone instead of focusing on a particular public. A situation that, among companies that sell products that require a lot of qualification and know-how, only happens in the videogame industry - which is quite crazy. The consequence of this is that to make it accessible for everyone you have to consider the lowest common denominator among consumers. The result are products that feel shallow, dull and that don’t have any longevity.

More important: It supposes the death of the videogame genres to conglomerate these under just one banner: ARCADE. The arcade genre is the oldest one, which is not a coincidence: It is the more accessible and the lest demanding from the user as it is based on nervous impulses (twitch) and not on thinking or reflection. Patience or dedication is not required. Take a look at how some franchises and genres develop in the last 10 years: the RPG and MMORPG genres, the Driving genre, the Flight Simulation genre, Simcity and now Total War. All of them indicate the leaning towards one direction: less simulation, less thinking and more twitching (Arcade).

In this sense, I think it has become mandatory to re-think the pricing of some videogaming products. I honestly think that videogames that are directed to an specialized, more demanding public, that have more scope, more longevity should cost more. I'd gladly pay 100€ for the vanilla version of a fleshed out - not casualized, nor dumbed down - iteration of TW.

- The big videogame companies becoming shareholding companies. The consequence of this: their driving focus is not to deliver solid products any more but to generate income to be distributed among shareholders on the shortest possible time. By the way, this problem is affecting the global economy and creating lots of stress and pain to the population (see the cheap credit and real estate bubble…).

- Use of wrong indicators and metrics like Metacritic and Steam. Metrics provided by Business intelligence & Analytic systems can work to monitor solid data like financial related data, productivity related date, technical related, etc… Never, never should be used to have an idea of the customer’s experience and satisfaction on the product, unless you are taking the metric from surveys. And even though this: The surveys should be well formulated, which it’s not easy.

- Last but not least: A portion of the public seems to be happy with mediocre products, who think the companies are “their friends” or something and that lack any capacity or desire for critical thinking. Remember: We, as the people, get what we deserve. No more, no less.

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

  Skuall

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/20/05
Posts: 784

2/06/14 6:47:40 AM#65
Originally posted by Akerbeltz

I cannot agree more with the points made by the OP and other posters.

 

Yes, nowawadays MMORPGs, especially the so called "AAAs":

 

- Have less functional scope and less features, resulting in less longevity.

- Have forgotten what RPG is to lean towards the Arcade.

- Are based on addiction and impulsive behaviour instead of on creativity and ability to solve complex problems.

- Do not rely or respect gamers' intelligence and capacity for thinking, instead they hand-hold, tunnel-vision the player and provide with twitch-based gaming as the main form of entertainment.

- Are all about presentation and nothing about substance: Resort to bells and whistles to help keep attention (same as the gambling machines...) and marketing pyrotechnics to drag consumers.

- Cater to the lowest-common-denominator instead of focusing on niche consumers that would be more loyal on the long term.

 

Although I wrote this for another game, it's relevant in this discussion:

 

SYSTEMIC PROBLEMS OF THE VIDEOGAME INDUSTRY

- The most important in my view: The idea that a product must be accessible to everyone instead of focusing on a particular public. A situation that, among companies that sell products that require a lot of qualification and know-how, only happens in the videogame industry - which is quite crazy. The consequence of this is that to make it accessible for everyone you have to consider the lowest common denominator among consumers. The result are products that feel shallow, dull and that don’t have any longevity.

More important: It supposes the death of the videogame genres to conglomerate these under just one banner: ARCADE. The arcade genre is the oldest one, which is not a coincidence: It is the more accessible and the lest demanding from the user as it is based on nervous impulses (twitch) and not on thinking or reflection. Patience or dedication is not required. Take a look at how some franchises and genres develop in the last 10 years: the RPG and MMORPG genres, the Driving genre, the Flight Simulation genre, Simcity and now Total War. All of them indicate the leaning towards one direction: less simulation, less thinking and more twitching (Arcade).

In this sense, I think it has become mandatory to re-think the pricing of some videogaming products. I honestly think that videogames that are directed to an specialized, more demanding public, that have more scope, more longevity should cost more. I'd gladly pay 100€ for the vanilla version of a fleshed out - not casualized, nor dumbed down - iteration of TW.

- The big videogame companies becoming shareholding companies. The consequence of this: their driving focus is not to deliver solid products any more but to generate income to be distributed among shareholders on the shortest possible time. By the way, this problem is affecting the global economy and creating lots of stress and pain to the population (see the cheap credit and real estate bubble…).

- Use of wrong indicators and metrics like Metacritic and Steam. Metrics provided by Business intelligence & Analytic systems can work to monitor solid data like financial related data, productivity related date, technical related, etc… Never, never should be used to have an idea of the customer’s experience and satisfaction on the product, unless you are taking the metric from surveys. And even though this: The surveys should be well formulated, which it’s not easy.

- Last but not least: A portion of the public seems to be happy with mediocre products, who think the companies are “their friends” or something and that lack any capacity or desire for critical thinking. Remember: We, as the people, get what we deserve. No more, no less.

 

love your last point

  Ice-Queen

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 2434

"Always borrow money from a pessimist. They won't expect it back."

2/06/14 6:57:22 AM#66
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
Originally posted by Skuall

i would kill for a

SWG classic server

FFXI COP server

Daoc Classic

City of heroes :(

that were fun games that u could play for hours to no end w/o getting bored

DAoC was in the process of getting a classic server when EA shuffled all the devs off to save WAR, you know, a modern MMO, that was doing so bad that staff had to be pulled of the "classic game that no one plays" to keep it alive. And now look which one is running and which isn't?

I'd definitely play a Pre-ToA server of DAOC.

What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12095

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

2/06/14 7:13:00 AM#67
Originally posted by Akerbeltz

- The big videogame companies becoming shareholding companies. The consequence of this: their driving focus is not to deliver solid products any more but to generate income to be distributed among shareholders on the shortest possible time. By the way, this problem is affecting the global economy and creating lots of stress and pain to the population (see the cheap credit and real estate bubble…).
 

Because EA, Sony and Microsoft were little indie outfits that held regular Sunday vigils at shrines emblazoned with the MGM motto. 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3674

2/06/14 8:55:46 AM#68
Originally posted by RajCaj
Originally posted by laokoko

If those golden mmorpg are so good, you should still be playing right now.

Guess what mmorpg people are still playing right now?  World of warcraft.

C'mon....try harder than that.

 

If EA did not fundamentally change the soul of Ultima Online, and the community was still there, I'd still be playing.

 

If Sony did not fundamentally change the soul of SWG, and the community was still there, I'd still be playing.

 

If NCSoft did not run Lineage 2 into the ground, and left it to the China farmers, I'd still be playing.

 

In all of those cases, the publisher significantly changed (or neglected major issues) in their games, due to market pressure & perceived opportunity to tap into a larger playerbase.

 

I'll also point to the millions of players that are playing classic / retro versions (as private servers) of many of those games. Unfortunately, in most cases, those experiences end up not meeting the mark because of poor support, poor server performance / uptime, and frequent wipes from the indie developers maintaining those servers.

The problem is, these companies made those changes because their games were failing, in a desperate attempt to draw in new blood.   They did not make those changes out of the blue and drive away the players they had.  The niche game failed, then the changes were instituted, not the other way around.  Niche  gaming is not the way to go, it almost always results in a failed game.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3674

2/06/14 8:59:34 AM#69
Originally posted by Zaiel12
There is a high demand for a quality MMO that is old school and unforgiving. Attempts at it have been shit though, so that market goes smaller. You do not need to put massive amounts of money, and polish into a game for it to be successful. Gaming as a whole is going towards this indie movement. MMOs will have some glory in the indie market, but that will require a small development core that is truly dedicated to the game, and not the cash it generates (Im looking at you AV). MMOs were never intentionally made to be a huge money generator. It just so happened that WoW became larger then anyone could have imagined, so the bar was set there. I mean despite Call of Duty making billions on the FPS market there is still quality FPS games coming out left and right. Development on an MMO is completely different then and FPS but the point is you don't need to copy one recipe to be a success or even aim so high to be the number one game out there. Developers need to set the par the community within it raises, not the preset standards on the genre based on a ten year old behemoth.

No there hasn't, there is very little demand for an old-school MMO.  You can't go by what's said around here, most of the people on MMORPG.com are just grumpy old farts who want an imaginary game made just for them.  Old-school fans like to think that they represent some huge group of people but the reality is, they don't.  They're vocal, not numerous.  There's a difference.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  Lyrian

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/23/07
Posts: 245

2/06/14 9:28:08 AM#70

The problem is somewhat more complicated.

Back in the early 2004 days we saw game models that banked on 1000+ hour investments for the players and the marketplace was rather small. With the flawless success of WoW which came at the right time for everything, it took off and made the market mainstream.

Because it became mainstream the overwhelming majority of new developers tried to stick to an existing model that worked and have proof that it worked, but because of the lack of innovation we ended up in having year after year of stagnation. What all the developers have tried to do is to cater to the masses and to have a fast ROI. Which lead to games that could be measured in about a 100~200~ hour investment to finish the game.

The solution to moving forward in the genre I think is to create smaller niche games catering to crowds of about 200,000-500,000 (About the size of the market that was playing EQ in it's peak) and to charge a larger subscription fee. Inflation has made the old $14.99 fairly meaningless against rising costs, I think if it was a quality game that I would be able to devote week after week, month after month, and even year after year. I wouldn't even hesitate in paying $29.99 a month. That's less than my gym membership.

We aren't close to coming out of this dark age yet. We still have at least two development cycles left before we will start seeing something long term coming out for us players to sink our teeth into. All I can really say, is become stupid rich. Somehow, and start your own game design corporation and help us out of this funk.

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2707

There... are... four... lights!

2/06/14 9:33:20 AM#71

2004: All the AAA games are Theme Parks, among which the greatest of all, WoW.

2014: The first AAA game to be opened to the public is a 100% sandbox.

 

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Tibernicuspa

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/03/13
Posts: 986

2/06/14 9:42:08 AM#72
Originally posted by jesteralways
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
Originally posted by skyline385
Originally posted by Xthos
Originally posted by skyline385
This thread is just destined to bring forth all the fans with rose-tinted glasses.

I agree, the GW2, TOR and ESO fans are going to come out.

Say whatever you want, atleast those games are going strong and people playing them are enjoying them.

We have no numbers for GW2, ESO isn't even out (and has been getting nothing but bad press), and SWTOR is considered the biggest failure in MMO history. And you want to talk about rose tinted glasses?

According to whom? Don't bother answering, i agree that "it was the biggest failure" but currently apart from it's fail f2p model it is a pretty much solid game that provides to any and all players(as long as they are subscriber). you are pissed that SWG was closed

Oh jesus, another lame attempt at deflection. I never played SWG more than a month. The game is not a good MMO, and it was a massive financial failure, period.

  Tibernicuspa

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/03/13
Posts: 986

2/06/14 9:45:49 AM#73
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

2004: All the AAA games are Theme Parks, among which the greatest of all, WoW.

2014: The first AAA game to be opened to the public is a 100% sandbox.

 

[mod edit]

In 2004, 3 AAA MMOs were sandboxes, none were themeparks, as the term did not really exist. Until the very end of the year, with WoW.

 

2014, themeparks andMMOs in general have been doing so poorly that barely any are releasing anymore. The ones that are releasing, are boring clones destined to fail.

  Rusque

Elite Member

Joined: 6/08/10
Posts: 1676

2/06/14 9:49:55 AM#74
It seems the Themepark phenomenon is being replaced by the builder phenomenon. Some will be happy with that, but give it 5 years of builder MMO after builder MMO and we'll see how everyone feels. Once the industry sees something make money, that's all you get until they can't get anymore blood from that stone.
  imsoenthused

Novice Member

Joined: 7/04/09
Posts: 64

2/06/14 9:55:01 AM#75
Originally posted by Rusque
It seems the Themepark phenomenon is being replaced by the builder phenomenon. Some will be happy with that, but give it 5 years of builder MMO after builder MMO and we'll see how everyone feels. Once the industry sees something make money, that's all you get until they can't get anymore blood from that stone.

I'm terrified... I've loathed this phenomenon since the first time I saw minecraft. Every time I see some new horrible game described as like minecraft with *blank* in *whatever* setting I want to throw something.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19449

2/06/14 11:34:17 AM#76
Originally posted by imsoenthused
Originally posted by Rusque
It seems the Themepark phenomenon is being replaced by the builder phenomenon. Some will be happy with that, but give it 5 years of builder MMO after builder MMO and we'll see how everyone feels. Once the industry sees something make money, that's all you get until they can't get anymore blood from that stone.

I'm terrified... I've loathed this phenomenon since the first time I saw minecraft. Every time I see some new horrible game described as like minecraft with *blank* in *whatever* setting I want to throw something.

We will see.

Personally i don't play games to build stuff. So far, I haven't seen any AAA building games .. but if that takes over the market, i will simply do something else.

I doubt ARPG, FPS, stealth, and other combat (i count stealth as a form of combat) centric games will go away though. But again, if they do, i will do something else.

 

  RajCaj

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/11/08
Posts: 684

2/06/14 12:08:49 PM#77
Originally posted by jesteralways
Originally posted by Zaiel12
There is a high demand for a quality MMO that is old school and unforgiving. Attempts at it have been shit though, so that market goes smaller. You do not need to put massive amounts of money, and polish into a game for it to be successful. Gaming as a whole is going towards this indie movement. MMOs will have some glory in the indie market, but that will require a small development core that is truly dedicated to the game, and not the cash it generates (Im looking at you AV). MMOs were never intentionally made to be a huge money generator. It just so happened that WoW became larger then anyone could have imagined, so the bar was set there. I mean despite Call of Duty making billions on the FPS market there is still quality FPS games coming out left and right. Development on an MMO is completely different then and FPS but the point is you don't need to copy one recipe to be a success or even aim so high to be the number one game out there. Developers need to set the par the community within it raises, not the preset standards on the genre based on a ten year old behemoth.

Yes and Darkfall is perfect example of how those "quality old school and unforgiving mmo"  fail these days. when people like you decide to ganbang new players as soon as they are out of safe zone and day by day people leave; people like you go on and say it's developers fault for not making a "quality" mmo and "not listening to player base" when in truth they did a wonderful job giving players a vast world to play with and a lot more that the "giant wow" don't even provide but still it failed. why? because people like you who wants old school unforgiving mmo kills it. you are severely minority, it is high time you and people like you stop playing mmo and play fps instead. bye bye. 

I played Ultima Online, during the days of these griefing band of murders, going around PKing everything in sight.

 

Interestingly enough, out of that oppression on the playrbase rose a guild of equally skilled PvPers that formed to do nothing but take on griefing murderers.  No GM had to get infolved.  The existance of these ruffians created an opportunity in the virtual world for a group of do-gooders that make it theri mission to counter th PKers.

 

I think that is absolutely amazing, players took a "problem" in their own hands and used the tools made available to them in the game to right the wrong...bring balance.

 

There were a lot of folks that left the game, as it wasn't their cup of tea.....while the ones that stayed learned to play smarter & became better players for it. 

 

In this case, diversity in your playerbase (in terms of what kind of experience they are looking for) is a BAD thing.  The big tent approach ensures that in effort to please all, you truely satisfy none.

 

This is why making low cost games, for niche audiences, is the way to go.  Because that game experience is like no other, the developers don't get stretched in 10 different directions from 10 different demo groups, and the people that enjoy your service don't have many other options, and are more likley to stay with your game.

  Cristina1

Novice Member

Joined: 3/12/09
Posts: 384

2/06/14 12:20:26 PM#78
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

2004: All the AAA games are Theme Parks, among which the greatest of all, WoW.

2014: The first AAA game to be opened to the public is a 100% sandbox.

 

which one is that? lol

  Quirhid

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5505

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

2/06/14 1:16:16 PM#79
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
Originally posted by jesteralways
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
Originally posted by skyline385
Originally posted by Xthos
Originally posted by skyline385
This thread is just destined to bring forth all the fans with rose-tinted glasses.

I agree, the GW2, TOR and ESO fans are going to come out.

Say whatever you want, atleast those games are going strong and people playing them are enjoying them.

We have no numbers for GW2, ESO isn't even out (and has been getting nothing but bad press), and SWTOR is considered the biggest failure in MMO history. And you want to talk about rose tinted glasses?

According to whom? Don't bother answering, i agree that "it was the biggest failure" but currently apart from it's fail f2p model it is a pretty much solid game that provides to any and all players(as long as they are subscriber). you are pissed that SWG was closed

Oh jesus, another lame attempt at deflection. I never played SWG more than a month. The game is not a good MMO, and it was a massive financial failure, period.

EA/Bioware fell short on their goals, but SWTOR wasn't a "massive financial failure" they actually turned a profit; only, not as much as they had hoped.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Xthos

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2635

2/06/14 1:20:24 PM#80
Originally posted by skyline385
Originally posted by iridescence
Originally posted by skyline385

I agree, the GW2, TOR and ESO fans are going to come out.

Say whatever you want, atleast those games are going strong and people playing them are enjoying them.

and will they still in 5-10 years?

 

They won't be probably but i won't be wasting my time on the forums crying about how good these games were 10 years ago. I have been playing for over a decade now and i don't go on about the great games i played back.

 No?  Just wasting your time crying about other people, like you started here?

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