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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » 2004 v. 2014: The State of the MMO Genre

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171 posts found
  skyline385

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/09/13
Posts: 601

2/06/14 12:07:05 AM#21
Originally posted by Zaiel12
Originally posted by skyline385
 Also, love how he included WoW in the 2014 list again to take a piss at but EvE mysteriously disappeared.

World of Warcraft released in 2004, to date we have seen four major expansions. Each one raised level cap, and added much more content. When the new content came into the game the old content became nothing. Raids from level 70 became nothing, the gear you worked so hard for years to earn was replaced by stuff you would other wise throw out. The old content serves no purpose in the game, other then leveling, maybe a few mounts and pets, and nostalgia. Final Fantasy XI release state side 2003 and has seen much more major expansions and add ons however; old content was salvaged. Just because Dynamis's drops became dated there was still use to go in, even if it was 3 people instead of 60. Same goes for EVE, sure you get 2 free expansions yearly, but they add to the game world not take away. Each expansion from WoW has taken away just as much content that it has added. So if you really know what you are talking about you know that Vanilla WoW and Mist of Pandaria WoW are two entirely different beasts. Okay still the same game, same cities, same boring ass classes, and same mediocrity that plagued it from the start. But the stupid shit like earning your mount at level 40 and 60 for massive amounts of gold at the time, or doing class quests on druids to get your shapeshift abilities. All the stuff that made Vanilla WoW the success it was is gone in the wayside to accommodate the casual gamer with $15 in their pocket each month.

Because changing the level and gold at which you get a mount equates to adding whole new maps and classes and quests, right? Just further shows how bad your comparison is. Maybe that's why it's being ignored by everyone except for a bunch of us.

  skyline385

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/09/13
Posts: 601

2/06/14 12:08:57 AM#22
Originally posted by RajCaj

To the point of the millions playing private servers, there are.  To be clear, I'm not saying any single private server has millions of subs....I'm saying in total (Lineage 2, WOW, UO) they amount to the 7 figures....with most of the top servers for each of those games sporting 2-3k unique logins a day. (despite all the negative issues with private servers I listed above)

Lol again with the 7 figure numbers. Okay, i will humour you. Point me to a source then which proves your 7 figure point.

I will be impressed if you can even point me to a 6 figure source, let alone the 7 which you are saying.

  RajCaj

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/11/08
Posts: 684

2/06/14 12:10:18 AM#23
Originally posted by iixviiiix
Originally posted by RajCaj
Originally posted by laokoko

If those golden mmorpg are so good, you should still be playing right now.

Guess what mmorpg people are still playing right now?  World of warcraft.

C'mon....try harder than that.

 

If EA did not fundamentally change the soul of Ultima Online, and the community was still there, I'd still be playing.

 

If Sony did not fundamentally change the soul of SWG, and the community was still there, I'd still be playing.

 

If NCSoft did not run Lineage 2 into the ground, and left it to the China farmers, I'd still be playing.

 

In all of those cases, the publisher significantly changed (or neglected major issues) in their games, due to market pressure & perceived opportunity to tap into a larger playerbase.

 

I'll also point to the millions of players that are playing classic / retro versions (as private servers) of many of those games. Unfortunately, in most cases, those experiences end up not meeting the mark because of poor support, poor server performance / uptime, and frequent wipes from the indie developers maintaining those servers.

You forget to tell that some ready play the golden game for many years , there are limit how long a chew gum can be chewed , though you can chew it more than new product sweet candy , it still limit of time before it lost sweet taste.

Thats the beauty of dynamic player driven endgame content, which was more prevalent in the older MMOs.  Because the human element is unpredictable, its never the quite the same over time...and keeps things relatively fresh.  Also, the tighter knit communities in these types of games keep things interesting enough to hang around.

 

The developer driven model (see WOW) on the other hand DOES lose it's flavor quite fast, and requires constant work on the developers part to crank out new dungeons, zones, quests to hold people's attention...but face diminishing returns once players figure out the quests they are running at level 90 are the same they were running at lvl 9.

  GuyClinch

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/28/13
Posts: 484

2/06/14 12:20:27 AM#24

Its fine to like the older MMOs. But they were not superior games - just different.

Modern MMO = Old School MMO -  gear gated end game - level grinding - random chance of death (wandering NPCs) - abusive rare mob hunting - crappy graphics - forced grouping.

Its basically the same game experience - its just been streamlined nowadays. You might not like it but developers think there is no market for the oldstyle game. Since Pantheon hasn't even made its kick start goals - I tend to agree.

Computer science and computers are very similar to how they were 10 years ago - so we essentially get the same kind of games across genres. They just have a fancier sheen of paint and sometimes they are streamlined. If this is a problem you will have to find a different hobby..

 

  Loktofeit

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

2/06/14 12:24:18 AM#25
Originally posted by Zaiel12
 

 

So here is my rant, its plain and simple. Today a MMO releases and we sit here and ask how long until it fails, and then months down the road we see these go free to play, or their current free to play models get overhauled. It is in a sad state. The Developer doesn't consider the enormous niche market out there that wants to play a 2014 version of Dark Age of Camelot or Everquest. The Publisher want fat wallets. They see World of Warcraft works so they copy/paste the format to their creation. IF THIS IS THE STATE OF THE CURRENT MMO WHY IS NEARLY EVERY GAME I MENTIONED UNDER 2004 STILL SUBSCRIPTION BASED, MAKING CASH, HAVING LIVING BREATH ALBIET SMALL COMMUNITIES.

 

These games coming out are garbage. We need a truly great MMO to be made.

There are two problems with your rant. 

1) You consider it a genre, not a platform. When looking at MMO as a platform, the evolution, diversity and breadth becomes far more evident. 

2) You create a rather circular argument as you only look at the MMORPG portion of MMOs and then rant that they are all the same. 

 

You also present the disposition of the people on these forums as if they were any indication of the majority. With that, you present the all too common assumption that all these new MMOs are failing, when most of the new NA/EU titles are doing rather well here and the Eastern titles are kicking ass over there. 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  RajCaj

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/11/08
Posts: 684

2/06/14 12:26:20 AM#26
Originally posted by skyline385
Originally posted by RajCaj

To the point of the millions playing private servers, there are.  To be clear, I'm not saying any single private server has millions of subs....I'm saying in total (Lineage 2, WOW, UO) they amount to the 7 figures....with most of the top servers for each of those games sporting 2-3k unique logins a day. (despite all the negative issues with private servers I listed above)

Lol again with the 7 figure numbers. Okay, i will humour you. Point me to a source then which proves your 7 figure point.

I will be impressed if you can even point me to a 6 figure source, let alone the 7 which you are saying.

Arguing this point with you is not worth my time to provide you verifiable proof.  This is purely anticdotal, based on my experiences over the course of years playing several different private servers for those games.

 

Quite frankly, I don't care if you agree with me...I'm just adding my two cents in on this topic.  I'll cede the point that 7 figures might be on the optimistic side, but the point still remains.  There are enough people interested in classic versions of these games (specifically the classic MMO play style) that give me confidence that there is enough people to support a well built traditional MMO.

 

The reason EA & WOW have turned down launching classic servers is because of the cost related with having to maintain different versions of the game....these publishers aren't just working on WOW, UO & L2.

  Laughing-man

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/23/09
Posts: 3394

I thought what I'd do is I'd pretend I was one of those Deaf-mutes.

2/06/14 12:34:40 AM#27
Originally posted by Zaiel12

These games coming out are garbage. We need a truly great MMO to be made.

 

 

That was a huge wall of text to say something that's been said about a million times already.

Sorry, but I think the problem is mostly... MOSTLY you.

I wish there was more variety to our gaming online but... there is quite a bit of quality.

  Tibernicuspa

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/03/13
Posts: 986

2/06/14 12:35:14 AM#28
Originally posted by Charlie12202

It's because we all have ADD so we don't stick with a game for a long enough time

There's that... and then there's the fact that the games are all so similar that you get bored faster, plus on top of that, they're designed differently. They're designed almost entirely on the solo experience, so you never make outside friends that get you to stick to the game longer. The progression is a lot faster. Aaaaand the end game and feature lists are really lacking.

 

There, those are the core reasons.

 

  GuyClinch

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/28/13
Posts: 484

2/06/14 12:36:07 AM#29

 

 

Quite frankly, I don't care if you agree with me...I'm just adding my two cents in on this topic.  I'll cede the point that 7 figures might be on the optimistic side, but the point still remains.  There are enough people interested in classic versions of these games (specifically the classic MMO play style) that give me confidence that there is enough people to support a well built traditional MMO.

 

 

Yeah man - look at Vanguard still going strong. Oh wait...

Wildstar will be the best traditonal MMO ever, IMHO. Book it.

  skyline385

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/09/13
Posts: 601

2/06/14 12:37:01 AM#30
Originally posted by RajCaj
Originally posted by skyline385
Originally posted by RajCaj

To the point of the millions playing private servers, there are.  To be clear, I'm not saying any single private server has millions of subs....I'm saying in total (Lineage 2, WOW, UO) they amount to the 7 figures....with most of the top servers for each of those games sporting 2-3k unique logins a day. (despite all the negative issues with private servers I listed above)

Lol again with the 7 figure numbers. Okay, i will humour you. Point me to a source then which proves your 7 figure point.

I will be impressed if you can even point me to a 6 figure source, let alone the 7 which you are saying.

Arguing this point with you is not worth my time to provide you verifiable proof.  This is purely anticdotal, based on my experiences over the course of years playing several different private servers for those games.

 

Quite frankly, I don't care if you agree with me...I'm just adding my two cents in on this topic.  I'll cede the point that 7 figures might be on the optimistic side, but the point still remains.  There are enough people interested in classic versions of these games (specifically the classic MMO play style) that give me confidence that there is enough people to support a well built traditional MMO.

 

The reason EA & WOW have turned down launching classic servers is because of the cost related with having to maintain different versions of the game....these publishers aren't just working on WOW, UO & L2.

So basically you are making stuff up. Meawhile, if you google you will find a post from September 2013 on the official SWG EMU servers saying a peak of 2K players and that it's been dropping since then. I can bet you that even if you pool all the retro MMOs on private servers, their number wouldn't even cross 10K.

  RajCaj

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/11/08
Posts: 684

2/06/14 12:40:26 AM#31
Originally posted by GuyClinch

Its fine to like the older MMOs. But they were not superior games - just different.

Modern MMO = Old School MMO -  gear gated end game - level grinding - random chance of death (wandering NPCs) - abusive rare mob hunting - crappy graphics - forced grouping.

Its basically the same game experience - its just been streamlined nowadays. You might not like it but developers think there is no market for the oldstyle game. Since Pantheon hasn't even made its kick start goals - I tend to agree.

Computer science and computers are very similar to how they were 10 years ago - so we essentially get the same kind of games across genres. They just have a fancier sheen of paint and sometimes they are streamlined. If this is a problem you will have to find a different hobby..

 

I don't know why people get hung up on which is "better" or "superior", with those being incredibly subjective from one person to the next.

 

I know that those older MMOs ARE superior games for ME, but I wouldn't dare tell someone who likes GW2 that their game is crappier than mine.

 

As to the comparison between old & new MMOs....I disagree.

 

You can water down what you do in games to make them all common, if that's the route your going.  MMOs = Single Player Side Scrollers....they both involve you controlling an avatar with an input device, where you waste a bunch of time progressing through the game.

 

Instead, if you think about them critically enough, you can find some significant differences.

 

Older MMOs tended to rely on players to develop endgame content, where modern MMOs are almost entirely linear & developer driven.

Older MMOs tended to have a more balanced risk vs reward dynamic that added a dramatic effect that modern MMOs (with more reward and less risk) have a harder time reproducing.

Older MMOs were more of virtual worlds, and were community driven, while modern MMOs give players more independence & require far less social interaction to progress through the game.

Older MMOs typically required more time & effort to get rewards / skills / items, which can create a perception of higher value for said rewards, than modern MMOs...which seem to give more participation trophies.

 

Not saying that any of these qualities are universally better or worse...just pointing out there are real differences between the two....which ultimately shape a very different experience playing them.

  DamonVile

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4909

2/06/14 12:43:00 AM#32
Originally posted by RajCaj
 

 

Quite frankly, I don't care if you agree with me...I'm just adding my two cents in on this topic.  I'll cede the point that 7 figures might be on the optimistic side, but the point still remains.  There are enough people interested in classic versions of these games (specifically the classic MMO play style) that give me confidence that there is enough people to support a well built traditional MMO.

 

You can't swing a midget around here without hitting a kickstarter post with someone begging for anyone to give them spare change to fund their old school mmo. If there were "millions" of people ...or even a large group, you'd think these things would have lots of support instead of coming off like a hobo convention.

  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1461

2/06/14 12:47:00 AM#33
Originally posted by RajCaj
 

I never said anything about traditional sandbox MMOs being in higher demand than modern casual MMOs.  

 

It's common sense....there are more people that have real life stuff that get in the way of long gaming sessions (school, homework, work, cook dinner, walk the dog, etc) than there are folks that are able to dedicate several hour gaming sessions to MMO games that do require more time commitment (traditional MMOs)

 

I'm just pointing out that there IS a void (and an opportunity) in that market...even if it is only several hundred subs.  CCP seems to be doing quite well with EVE, and its approx 300k subs.

 Why?  Because they kept their costs down & understand who their target audience is.

 

I totally agree with this (not with your 7 figure private server nonsense. Even if it's for all private servers total  I still don't buy that) but this part of your argument us very solid. I think there's room for several niche EVE-size MMOs as long as they keep realistic about their goals.

 

The point about people getting older is also an interesting one. Why don't teenagers and college students today gravitate towards "hard core" MMOs like they used to? I guess they are playing MOBAs or something. The company that answers that and is able to connect with the youth will have a niche hit on their hands.

 

 

  RajCaj

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/11/08
Posts: 684

2/06/14 12:51:58 AM#34
Originally posted by skyline385
Originally posted by RajCaj
Originally posted by skyline385
Originally posted by RajCaj

To the point of the millions playing private servers, there are.  To be clear, I'm not saying any single private server has millions of subs....I'm saying in total (Lineage 2, WOW, UO) they amount to the 7 figures....with most of the top servers for each of those games sporting 2-3k unique logins a day. (despite all the negative issues with private servers I listed above)

Lol again with the 7 figure numbers. Okay, i will humour you. Point me to a source then which proves your 7 figure point.

I will be impressed if you can even point me to a 6 figure source, let alone the 7 which you are saying.

Arguing this point with you is not worth my time to provide you verifiable proof.  This is purely anticdotal, based on my experiences over the course of years playing several different private servers for those games.

 

Quite frankly, I don't care if you agree with me...I'm just adding my two cents in on this topic.  I'll cede the point that 7 figures might be on the optimistic side, but the point still remains.  There are enough people interested in classic versions of these games (specifically the classic MMO play style) that give me confidence that there is enough people to support a well built traditional MMO.

 

The reason EA & WOW have turned down launching classic servers is because of the cost related with having to maintain different versions of the game....these publishers aren't just working on WOW, UO & L2.

So basically you are making stuff up. Meawhile, if you google you will find a post from September 2013 on the official SWG EMU servers saying a peak of 2K players and that it's been dropping since then. I can bet you that even if you pool all the retro MMOs on private servers, their number wouldn't even cross 10K.

Not making things up...just giving anticdotal evidence that's come from my experiences researching & playing on private servers over the course of 5+ years.  You're giving anticdotal evidence from your experience of taking 2 minutes to google something about SWG's only private server (which has been in development for several years, and still missing lots of features).

 

My experience is different than yours...just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

  Tibernicuspa

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/03/13
Posts: 986

2/06/14 12:53:44 AM#35
Originally posted by Laughing-man
Originally posted by Zaiel12

These games coming out are garbage. We need a truly great MMO to be made.

 

 

That was a huge wall of text to say something that's been said about a million times already.

Sorry, but I think the problem is mostly... MOSTLY you.

I wish there was more variety to our gaming online but... there is quite a bit of quality.

Quality? I wouldn't say so. THe feature lists of most modern MMOs is far FAR shorter than the ones we had in pre WoW days. THe funny thing is, while those old MMOs are considered "niche", they allowed for so many styles of play in ONE game world. IN WoW clones, you quest grind, or do nothing.

 

If it was "mostly him" then why would so many MMOs be failing out of the gate?

  Tibernicuspa

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/03/13
Posts: 986

2/06/14 12:56:34 AM#36
Originally posted by GuyClinch

 

 

Quite frankly, I don't care if you agree with me...I'm just adding my two cents in on this topic.  I'll cede the point that 7 figures might be on the optimistic side, but the point still remains.  There are enough people interested in classic versions of these games (specifically the classic MMO play style) that give me confidence that there is enough people to support a well built traditional MMO.

 

 

Yeah man - look at Vanguard still going strong. Oh wait...

Wildstar will be the best traditonal MMO ever, IMHO. Book it.

Design is not the reason Vanguard failed. Design is why Vanguard stayed alive for 7 years despite the worst game engine imaginable, and having no updates or marketing.

  Xthos

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2651

2/06/14 12:58:03 AM#37
Originally posted by skyline385
This thread is just destined to bring forth all the fans with rose-tinted glasses.

I agree, the GW2, TOR and ESO fans are going to come out.

  Xthos

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2651

2/06/14 12:59:34 AM#38
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by RajCaj
 

 

Quite frankly, I don't care if you agree with me...I'm just adding my two cents in on this topic.  I'll cede the point that 7 figures might be on the optimistic side, but the point still remains.  There are enough people interested in classic versions of these games (specifically the classic MMO play style) that give me confidence that there is enough people to support a well built traditional MMO.

 

You can't swing a midget around here without hitting a kickstarter post with someone begging for anyone to give them spare change to fund their old school mmo. If there were "millions" of people ...or even a large group, you'd think these things would have lots of support instead of coming off like a hobo convention.

Same goes for people crying about what other people do with their money.

  RajCaj

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/11/08
Posts: 684

2/06/14 1:03:00 AM#39
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by RajCaj
 

 

Quite frankly, I don't care if you agree with me...I'm just adding my two cents in on this topic.  I'll cede the point that 7 figures might be on the optimistic side, but the point still remains.  There are enough people interested in classic versions of these games (specifically the classic MMO play style) that give me confidence that there is enough people to support a well built traditional MMO.

 

You can't swing a midget around here without hitting a kickstarter post with someone begging for anyone to give them spare change to fund their old school mmo. If there were "millions" of people ...or even a large group, you'd think these things would have lots of support instead of coming off like a hobo convention.

See void in market.  And as more indie developers go to the well, with the kick starter method of getting start-up funds...more folks will be selective of where they drop their donation...which in turn forces these inde developers to "go hobo", given all the competition.

 

There will be more failures, given the independent nature of these development houses, but most of these new wave of MMOs aimed at the smaller niche sandbox audience are still in development and we will see what shakes out over the next year or two (if they can deliver on budget / time)

  Tibernicuspa

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/03/13
Posts: 986

2/06/14 1:04:55 AM#40
Originally posted by Xthos
Originally posted by skyline385
This thread is just destined to bring forth all the fans with rose-tinted glasses.

I agree, the GW2, TOR and ESO fans are going to come out.

It's their favorite way to try to defeat rational arguments. They either resort to EQ1 ghost stories, say "Well no one plays those games now for a reason!" or "rose tinted glasses!" and other flawed moronic arguments.

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