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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » What's Next, Pay Extra to Unlock Certain Classes?

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168 posts found
  Kevyne-Shandris

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/08
Posts: 1980

You can't † BURY † ¤¤ Holy Paladins ¤¤ As we will always __.- ASCEND -.__

2/03/14 12:59:49 AM#141
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by BeansnBread

The argument that because people have been paying for expansions they should be fine with this basically boils down to this. You pay for expansions in other sub games and so everything is ok to sell in a cash shop (along with the sub). Classes, races, textures, top tier weapons and armor, levels, zones, quests, crafting supplies, etc. After all, you already pay for expansions and expansions include all of these things.

 

In the end it's an argument that is technically valid, but is also relatively absurd to those that thought paying a sub should get you access to a full game. Obviously there are a lot of people that no longer feel this way. They would prefer to pay a sub and on top of that add in a cash shop that sells very important gameplay related items and services. I'm just not one of those people.

No the argument is that if you are not fine by it, don't play the game. Devs are under no obligation to do whatever you want. They only follow the money.

For example, I am not "fine" with FFA pvp ... so i don't play FFA pvp games .. very simple.

 

Or, they can now pay their gamers for the time spent playing the game. Have already over 356 days of actual play time in WoW (not just standing in Stormwind) and the minimum wage of around $8hr = $68,352.

 

Upon that sum I'd gladly leave the game, since now I'm paid a wage for putting up with the BS in these games, including trolling devs which isn't part of the ToS/EULA.

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5251

2/03/14 4:49:25 AM#142
Originally posted by Fendel84M
Originally posted by BeansnBread
Originally posted by anemo
You already do with expansions.

Yeah, but when you buy an expansion you actually get the race/class. You don't have to pay extra for it.

/facepalm

Ya, that's the point. You don't get the class UNLESS you buy the expansion.

True but an expansion is released after a MMO launches. This is building an expansion into the launch which gets us into paying extra for something they have already made for launch. It is in effect holding back on material from the get go. Much like Dragon Age held back sections of its game and expected us to pay extra.

When you think of all the cash shop abuse that goes on in a F2P MMO it should be no surprise that P2P MMMOs start to take on bad practice as well.

That is the state of play in the MMO genre now, nothing they do will surprise me, gaming ethos is dead.

  Kevyne-Shandris

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/08
Posts: 1980

You can't † BURY † ¤¤ Holy Paladins ¤¤ As we will always __.- ASCEND -.__

2/03/14 4:56:34 AM#143
Originally posted by Dewguy79
But you do get the full game.  In most cases if you don't buy that race or class you will still be able to play the full game.  It will have no impact on your game.  Just because another player buys it doesn't mean he gets into new content. 

Except for not having a race that's been in Elder Scrolls for over 10 years without paying extra for.

  iixviiiix

Elite Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 516

2/03/14 4:58:02 AM#144

For everyone continue use "expansion packs" compare .

You can't play the game without expansion pack (except in some games)

It difference than pay extra cash to unlock something that ready exit in game client but blocked by your "no extra" account . (that you can still play the game without that extra paid)

 

Though i don't like way they do but i hope enough people paid for it so we will get better TES IV game

 

Also it depend on the mass to tell that Zenimax do right or wrong move.

If the mass see it "right" , they get money , if wrong then they doomed .

As for myself , i cast my vote that they do wrong move.

  KaosProphet

Novice Member

Joined: 8/31/12
Posts: 384

2/03/14 5:24:28 AM#145

I do not understand all these free-market advocates, who defend supplier behaviors in terms that suggest our decisions as consumers must be taken in silent isolation; without receiving or giving input through public discussion.

 

  Lienhart

Novice Member

Joined: 5/21/07
Posts: 673

2/03/14 7:21:39 AM#146
Originally posted by Xssiv

However, when a developer chooses to charge a box price + sub, then believes it's OK to charge an additional fee to give players access to all classes, we are treading on a slippery slope that simply will not end well for most gamers.

Do you know what's wrong with this statement?

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19811

2/03/14 11:40:22 AM#147
Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by BeansnBread

The argument that because people have been paying for expansions they should be fine with this basically boils down to this. You pay for expansions in other sub games and so everything is ok to sell in a cash shop (along with the sub). Classes, races, textures, top tier weapons and armor, levels, zones, quests, crafting supplies, etc. After all, you already pay for expansions and expansions include all of these things.

 

In the end it's an argument that is technically valid, but is also relatively absurd to those that thought paying a sub should get you access to a full game. Obviously there are a lot of people that no longer feel this way. They would prefer to pay a sub and on top of that add in a cash shop that sells very important gameplay related items and services. I'm just not one of those people.

No the argument is that if you are not fine by it, don't play the game. Devs are under no obligation to do whatever you want. They only follow the money.

For example, I am not "fine" with FFA pvp ... so i don't play FFA pvp games .. very simple.

 

Or, they can now pay their gamers for the time spent playing the game. Have already over 356 days of actual play time in WoW (not just standing in Stormwind) and the minimum wage of around $8hr = $68,352.

 

Upon that sum I'd gladly leave the game, since now I'm paid a wage for putting up with the BS in these games, including trolling devs which isn't part of the ToS/EULA.

You are kidding me .... your spend the time voluntary inside the game to have fun. In fact, sometimes you pay for that privilege.

Do you get to ask movie theaters to pay you 2 hours of minimum wage to watch movies too.

If gaming feels like work to you, you should quit.

 

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12283

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

2/03/14 6:05:28 PM#148
Originally posted by BeansnBread

The argument that because people have been paying for expansions they should be fine with this basically boils down to this. You pay for expansions in other sub games and so everything is ok to sell in a cash shop (along with the sub). Classes, races, textures, top tier weapons and armor, levels, zones, quests, crafting supplies, etc. After all, you already pay for expansions and expansions include all of these things.

 

In the end it's an argument that is technically valid, but is also relatively absurd to those that thought paying a sub should get you access to a full game. Obviously there are a lot of people that no longer feel this way. They would prefer to pay a sub and on top of that add in a cash shop that sells very important gameplay related items and services. I'm just not one of those people.

If you are referring to expansions there, I agree. It's paying for expansions that you are saying is absurd, right? 

 

"Obviously there are a lot of people that no longer feel this way."

NO ONE thought that way. If they did, expansions would have never caught on. 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  BeansnBread

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5550

2/03/14 6:17:17 PM#149
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by BeansnBread

The argument that because people have been paying for expansions they should be fine with this basically boils down to this. You pay for expansions in other sub games and so everything is ok to sell in a cash shop (along with the sub). Classes, races, textures, top tier weapons and armor, levels, zones, quests, crafting supplies, etc. After all, you already pay for expansions and expansions include all of these things.

 

In the end it's an argument that is technically valid, but is also relatively absurd to those that thought paying a sub should get you access to a full game. Obviously there are a lot of people that no longer feel this way. They would prefer to pay a sub and on top of that add in a cash shop that sells very important gameplay related items and services. I'm just not one of those people.

If you are referring to expansions there, I agree. It's paying for expansions that you are saying is absurd, right? 

It's a value argument. $20 for a race is not that same as $40 for a ton of content, races, classes, dungeons, features, zones, quests, raids, the list goes on and on. It is sometimes even a complete transformation of the game itself. The sheer scale of both of the purchases should be obvious to anyone that considers it for even a few seconds. And like the race unlock, everyone has to make that same value judgement. Is a paying for a single race worth $20 in a sub game? Is this specific expansion worth $40 in a sub game?

 

The value difference is so extreme as to make both purchases barely comparable. That's why the argument is absurd to people that have been playing sub games for a long time. 

 

"Obviously there are a lot of people that no longer feel this way."

NO ONE thought that way. If they did, expansions would have never caught on. 

Actually, obviously people DO feel this way about putting specific races behind a cash shop in a sub game. And obviously people did not feel that way about expansions.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19811

2/03/14 7:09:01 PM#150
Originally posted by BeansnBread
 

It's a value argument. $20 for a race is not that same as $40 for a ton of content, races, classes, dungeons, features, zones, quests, raids, the list goes on and on. It is sometimes even a complete transformation of the game itself. The sheer scale of both of the purchases should be obvious to anyone that considers it for even a few seconds. And like the race unlock, everyone has to make that same value judgement. Is a paying for a single race worth $20 in a sub game? Is this specific expansion worth $40 in a sub game?

Then it is just a matter of price. If the cost of unlock is $5 .. or $1 .. you will agree that there is no problem?

 

  BeansnBread

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5550

2/03/14 7:12:48 PM#151
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by BeansnBread

It's a value argument. $20 for a race is not that same as $40 for a ton of content, races, classes, dungeons, features, zones, quests, raids, the list goes on and on. It is sometimes even a complete transformation of the game itself. The sheer scale of both of the purchases should be obvious to anyone that considers it for even a few seconds. And like the race unlock, everyone has to make that same value judgement. Is a paying for a single race worth $20 in a sub game? Is this specific expansion worth $40 in a sub game?

Then it is just a matter of price. If the cost of unlock is $5 .. or $1 .. you will agree that there is no problem?

I've probably said like 19 times in this thread that I think they can charge whatever they want for their product. Even in direct response to YOU, I said the following:

 

But, like I've said before, it's fine that they're asking for it, I just personally don't like that type of payment model in a sub game whether it be in WoW or any other sub game.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  Kevyne-Shandris

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/08
Posts: 1980

You can't † BURY † ¤¤ Holy Paladins ¤¤ As we will always __.- ASCEND -.__

2/03/14 7:22:42 PM#152
Originally posted by BeansnBread

Actually, obviously people DO feel this way about putting specific races behind a cash shop in a sub game. And obviously people did not feel that way about expansions.

As we're paying for content that has included everything in an expansion.

 

When it becomes an expansion + pay for a different race/class, then it no longer is a deal. It feels every bit like milking players for more cash.

 

It's the perception of value for your money that matters. Sub players who play full-time pay around $360 -- per client -- to play an expansion, and that's why in WoW it better have everything related to that expansion in it. WoW expansions come with a race/class as players truly pay for everything in that expansion. Players don't get so upset with cosmetics, since it has nothing to do with the expansion they paid for...but the moment it does...they'll riot.

 

Themepark game we're paying for a All-Expansion wrist bracelet to play everything in the game. Food and souvenirs are extra, and folks understand that. Not paying an extra fee on top of that wrist bracelet on a new ride.

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5251

2/04/14 4:26:00 AM#153

You pay a subscription for minor content updates. You buy and expansion for major content updates.That's a perfectly fair working model.

What ESO have done is the equivalent of what NeverWinter did, who were selling items in their cash shop before launch. Here ESO is selling content at extra cost at launch. Both are bad practice.

But as I said before there is no such thing as bad practise in MMOs now, they just charge and do what they like.

  Wicoa

Novice Member

Joined: 1/08/07
Posts: 1613

2/04/14 9:46:32 AM#154

I am one person that does not react well to "stick" style marketing tactics i.e race unlock with a collectors.  If pressure tactics are used in selling a product my face turns to something akin like they took a dump on the floor and I walk away.

If this was a free to play game and they sold a race type in a shop then okay. Subscription games should include all playable content within that context.

Its not bothering me, I have chosen not to pre-purchase a game thats released in 60 days with an NDA still up.  I will still comment in threads that crop up though and Im sure they will die down after launch and move onto the next hot-topic.

 

  CrazKanuk

Elite Member

Joined: 10/06/09
Posts: 1055

2/04/14 10:02:19 AM#155
For me, it went from a strong buy, to a wait and see, to a "meh, idk". For me, it's more the principal than the actual cost. I have no problems paying into a game that I'm excited about. I love lore, I love the journey. I had actually planned on purchasing this one out of the gates. I played in the beta and it seemed to perform relatively well for me. Then it was only a debate about PC or console. Then this whole thing popped up and I was like, meh, I don't know if I want to spend double the price, really.  I mean I have no issue with someone monetizing me for a free game. Bought races in EQ2, bought races in SWTOR, but I also got to play those before I put any money into it. I think I'd double my chances at getting a good game if I were to take my money and pre-order two regularly-priced games. Actually, I think that in recent days I've been swayed to The Repopulation a little bit. Then for my console fix, maybe I drop some cash onto The Witcher 3 and bide my time until EQN comes out. Maybe Wildstar?

Crazkanuk

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Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
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  Hikaruu

Novice Member

Joined: 10/02/10
Posts: 101

2/04/14 12:56:01 PM#156
Originally posted by nariusseldon

"Let me start by saying that F2P games have the right to put pay barriers on pretty much whatever they want if they're not charging anything to play the basic game."

Why is any different for a B2P or a sub-only game? It is their game. They have the right to sell content anyway they want to.

If you don't like the class, don't buy it. If you don't like the game, don't buy it. If you don't like them selling classes, don't buy the game.

In fact, given the fierce competition from f2p, i doubt a sub + selling classes will fly. But at the end of the day, i support their right to sell their stuff as they see fit.

 

^this. They can choose to charge for whatever they want. I'm not saying i agree that it's right to charge for box+sub+classes, etc, but since it's their game, they have the right to do so. Let them dig their own graves (or not, depending on how well it turns out)

  Gaendric

Novice Member

Joined: 4/20/04
Posts: 279

2/04/14 1:42:23 PM#157
Originally posted by Hikaruu
Originally posted by nariusseldon

"Let me start by saying that F2P games have the right to put pay barriers on pretty much whatever they want if they're not charging anything to play the basic game."

Why is any different for a B2P or a sub-only game? It is their game. They have the right to sell content anyway they want to.

If you don't like the class, don't buy it. If you don't like the game, don't buy it. If you don't like them selling classes, don't buy the game.

In fact, given the fierce competition from f2p, i doubt a sub + selling classes will fly. But at the end of the day, i support their right to sell their stuff as they see fit.

 

^this. They can choose to charge for whatever they want. I'm not saying i agree that it's right to charge for box+sub+classes, etc, but since it's their game, they have the right to do so. Let them dig their own graves (or not, depending on how well it turns out)

I agree too.

If a company misjudges the market and chooses a payment model that people won't accept, the company will pay for it. With lost revenue.

 

In this case, they surely did some market research before deciding and have anticipated there will be some backlash. Seems they think it's worth it none the less. Their choice. Or maybe the backlash is just some free publicity? ;)

 

The mind projection fallacy is the assumption that our subjective judgments (or lack thereof) reflect intrinsic qualities of objects or reality in general.

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5251

2/05/14 9:00:51 AM#158

We used to have a MMO market that was built on what was fair to charge players, now we have one where the ethos is get away with whatever you can and hope the market does not damn you.

Thank you cash shops, we owe you so much.

  SuperNick

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/10/07
Posts: 401

2/05/14 9:07:42 AM#159

If the price for the standard edition was increased by $15, would it be any different? The only difference is you would no longer have a choice.

At the end of the day, they're giving you a choice to invest in more. The things being offered by Bethesda are things that took time to develop, time to balance, time to make sure it fits in with the world. It cost them money to include it. Thus they want to make a return on that money they spent out.

It's a race, one which is in no way provides any real benefit beyond cosmetics.

MMOs have been selling cosmetic goods for over a decade now, why is this any different? I don't exactly think the sky is falling when a company decides to engage in a practice that has been going on for a long time.

I think people take stuff like this way too far out of proportion because a few bad eggs in the industry decided to create the P2W models. Now people naturally assume they're ALL like that.. If people choose to buy mounts, skins, costumes, pets and the like, who really cares? Does it affect you in any way at all?

It's only when cash shops and paywalls start to directly affect you that it's time to question if you can enjoy the game under those terms.

  nerovipus32

Novice Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 2716

2/05/14 9:10:28 AM#160
You can't play as a death knight in wow unless you buy the expansion.
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