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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Free Market Gaming - P2P, P2W, B2P, F2P ETC - How it works. (In the real world)

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90 posts found
  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12298

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

2/03/14 5:59:19 PM#41
Originally posted by Pyatra

You know, after the first few sub sentences I thought: "Oh, an unbiased breakdown of the payment model"

http://tsaoshin.deviantart.com/art/Part-of-Your-No-388260981

So to put it bluntly without the pay base fan boyism

Sub = Companies can spend more for updates because they can budget better, sometimes cash shop for aesthetic items but minimal income from it.

B2P = Box sales are driven by grassroots and word of mouth growth to not "burn out" sales growth additional cash shop subsidizes and allows for small content updates after the honeymoon period.  Income somewhat unstable but usually 1st year is solid

F2P =  Cash shop is primary source of income. Initial investment in the came is lower than the others, highly unstable income but maximizes potential profits until specific changes in player base.  Only keeps a small team on payroll for many small but rapid aesthetic updates and usually employs level faster via cash shop or the Gem Combining Pyramid of Probability. (PWI uses the combing pyramid for a lot of there supplementary profits.)

Freemium = Sub + one of the others, like a free trial but significantly more locked down, some content/features behind pay wall.  Income has a portion that can be budgeted for while a separate portion can potential provide an additional unstable income bonus.

I am fine with all models, they have their place and some games just aren't built to be F2P and that's fine.  Anyone who can't see that all the options are viable business models either doesn't understand business or they refuse to be wrong in their hating.

So, having said that, time for the biased part.  I don't like the Gem Combining Pyramid of Probability like PWI uses, that is all.

Can you link to any data, reports or articles that support those "facts"? You don't see that you're doing the same kind of "I think it is this, therefore it must be" post as the OP?

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  plat0nic

Novice Member

Joined: 11/20/03
Posts: 303

2/03/14 6:02:52 PM#42
I'm gonna have to go with p2p. if they lose subs they lose money. they have the greatest incentive to keep a quality engine running. I do enjoy f2p though for a more "enjoyable" experience because I don't have any expectatioN and am sometimes pleasantly surprised.


Main Game: Eldevin (Plat0nic)
2nd Game: Path of Exile (Platonic Hate)

  rsealman

Novice Member

Joined: 3/21/13
Posts: 47

Bat Shit Crazy™

2/03/14 6:17:05 PM#43
Originally posted by plat0nic
I'm gonna have to go with p2p. if they lose subs they lose money. they have the greatest incentive to keep a quality engine running. I do enjoy f2p though for a more "enjoyable" experience because I don't have any expectatioN and am sometimes pleasantly surprised.

Technically speaking, not really.

Just because a gaming company gets a steady stream of cash doesn't mean they are going to asure a quality engine. All it takes is for the dev team to use some 3rd party engine like Hero Engine or Gamebryo and weird stuff might happen.

Examples, Rift and SWTOR. Both run like snails due to limitations on their respective engines.

 

  Kevyne-Shandris

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/08
Posts: 1980

You can't † BURY † ¤¤ Holy Paladins ¤¤ As we will always __.- ASCEND -.__

2/03/14 6:20:37 PM#44
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Can you link to any data, reports or articles that support those "facts"? You don't see that you're doing the same kind of "I think it is this, therefore it must be" post as the OP?

 

Can you as well?

 

After all, we need evidence not just poking issues with a stick because it's easier.

  Abuz0r

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/03/12
Posts: 311

 
OP  2/03/14 6:25:08 PM#45

Your 2 examples, rift and swtor.  Free 2 play quality games.  Exactly.  The point is, to be a p2p game, you have to deliver a quality product.   Rift and SWTOR were both miserable failures that didn't deliver a nice enough product to keep their subscribers. 

Rift is a single path game. Lineology is a major determination of game quality.  If there is only 1 path to follow (per faction) and each time you choose that same faction you repeat the same activities as you level, you have found yourself in a low quality grinder.

Swtor was too generic to even interest me to level 20.  I realized I was in a major time sink relying solely on its IP to keep paralyzed fanatic subscribers.

When Lineage 2 came out, with all the different starting areas, all the different choices classes dungeons, multiple but parallel paths to reach common ends of difficult monsters and dungeons.  

As time went on and Lineage 2 became a game of the 2000 era, NC realized it was no longer a subscription quality game and changed it to a f2p.  This is success and proof of my points in action.

 

  Gaendric

Novice Member

Joined: 4/20/04
Posts: 279

2/03/14 6:27:22 PM#46
Originally posted by Loktofeit

Can you link to any data, reports or articles that support those "facts"? You don't see that you're doing the same kind of "I think it is this, therefore it must be" post as the OP?

 

This seems to be ging on a lot lately, on both sides of the argument.

Everyone claims to have "facts" and to know the "truth" without a shred of evidence or (in many cases) even having it thought through logically. 

 

I guess it just shows that it is an emotional debate.

People love their games and then project their feelings and thoughts, even if heavily biased.

At least it shows they deeply care. :)

 

The mind projection fallacy is the assumption that our subjective judgments (or lack thereof) reflect intrinsic qualities of objects or reality in general.

  IGaveUp

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/09/08
Posts: 272

I can't pull it off. I gave up.

2/03/14 6:28:50 PM#47
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by RealmLordsKen

I find it unusual that proponents of F2P systems declaring the subscription model dead, tend to point to Freemium game conversions as their proof, while these Freemium games in current form make what might be a significant portion of their income *selling subscriptions*.

You get the wrong declaration.

It is the "sub-only" model is dead, not the hybrid. Tell me, don't you think the sub-only model is dead given all the freemium games out there that do not force everyone to sub?

 

I agree, many are hybrids.  And I think that's actually my point.  To my understanding, item shop F2P didn't kill subscriptions (yet) in the western market.  The market adapted with the hybrid as a way of staying competitive.  Subscriptions didn't die, they changed.

 

Sub-Only?  I see it primarily as a means to optimize revenue at release, cashing in on box sales.  Is there any doubt that most (of course not all) subscription games are expected to go hybrid eventually?  Will that stop publishers from selling boxes?  I sort of doubt it, as long as publishers think they can make some extra bucks by doing so.

 

On the other hand, some publisher might insist on staying sub-only for the life of the game.  It better be a damned good game because the competition in this market is fierce.

 

BTW: my post wasn't intended as chain-yanking.  Just encouraging discussion and sort of poking the F2P advocates with the idea that subscriptions haven't really died, while being realistic that P2P systems either have to adapt or die off.  I'm of the opinion that most highly polarized debates are founded in a reality that's more in the middle than either side wants to believe.

edit: kant spel

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4834

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

2/03/14 6:28:58 PM#48
Swtor kept over 500k subs far far more than almost all mmo. They just didn't have enough to justify the 200 million it cost to make.

Keeping more subs than that is not realistic. Now they know it.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Abuz0r

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/03/12
Posts: 311

 
OP  2/03/14 6:32:12 PM#49
Originally posted by RealmLordsKen
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by RealmLordsKen

I find it unusual that proponents of F2P systems declaring the subscription model dead, tend to point to Freemium game conversions as their proof, while these Freemium games in current form make what might be a significant portion of their income *selling subscriptions*.

You get the wrong declaration.

It is the "sub-only" model is dead, not the hybrid. Tell me, don't you think the sub-only model is dead given all the freemium games out there that do not force everyone to sub?

 

I agree, many are hybrids.  And I think that's actually my point.  To my understanding, item shop F2P didn't kill subscriptions (yet) in the western market.  The market adapted with the hybrid as a way of staying competitive.  Subscriptions didn't die, they changed.

 

Sub-Only?  I see it primarily as a means to optimize revenue at release, cashing in on box sales.  Is there any doubt that most (of course not all) subscription games are expected to go hybrid eventually?  Will that stop publishers from selling boxes?  I sort of doubt it, as long as publishers think they can make some extra bucks by doing so.

 

On the other hand, some publisher might insist on staying sub-only for the life of the game.  It better be a damned good game because the competition in this market is fierce.

 

BTW: my post wasn't intended as chain-yanking.  Just encouraging discussion and sort of poking the F2P advocates with the idea that subscriptions haven't really died, while being realistic that P2P systems either have to adapt or die off.  I'm of the opinion that most highly polarized debates are founded in a reality that's more in the middle than either side wants to believe.

edit: kant spel

Thank you, the highlighted portion proves all my points.  You want to float a turd, that's easy, but the best of the best of the best will be found in the pay2play market, the succesful side of it atleast.

  Kevyne-Shandris

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/08
Posts: 1980

You can't † BURY † ¤¤ Holy Paladins ¤¤ As we will always __.- ASCEND -.__

2/03/14 6:32:33 PM#50
Originally posted by Gaendric
Originally posted by Loktofeit

Can you link to any data, reports or articles that support those "facts"? You don't see that you're doing the same kind of "I think it is this, therefore it must be" post as the OP?

 

This seems to be ging on a lot lately, on both sides of the argument.

Everyone claims to have "facts" and to know the "truth" without a shred of evidence or (in many cases) even having it thought through logically. 

 

I guess it just shows that it is an emotional debate.

People love their games and then project their feelings and thoughts, even if heavily biased.

At least it shows they deeply care. :)

 

Evidence is like matching the statistics to stock reports.

Evidence is the players claim XYZ is broken, and the raid stats show but 2% of even 10% raiding even finished it.

Evidence is WotLK with 12mil players because of ease of access, to Cata and 7mil players because of limiting access despite having LFG/LFR afterwards.

 

There's a lot of evidence to share.

  Abuz0r

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/03/12
Posts: 311

 
OP  2/03/14 6:34:09 PM#51
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Swtor kept over 500k subs far far more than almost all mmo. They just didn't have enough to justify the 200 million it cost to make.

Keeping more subs than that is not realistic. Now they know it.

You don't make a $200m product unless the market has a void and is craving what you're creating.

When the market is somewhat satisfied, and the only thing you're bringing to the table is a competing alternative, you don't invest $200m.  That's their foolishness. 

  IGaveUp

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/09/08
Posts: 272

I can't pull it off. I gave up.

2/03/14 6:41:08 PM#52
Originally posted by Torvaldr
I do think that overly simple models are probably going the way of the dodo as payment systems evolve, but even then it's hard to make sweeping statements about that without sounding sort of silly.

 

Ditto.  The more inclusive a statement the more likely that it is incorrect.  (btw: great reply)

 

In my opinion, the market is finding itself after a period of change.  It's tough to make money, and games are so expensive and take so long to produce that coming up with a well timed winner that makes a tidy profit is one serious challenge.  So they do their best to monetize in whatever ways they can find.  Right now, that's charge for as many things as you can in a non-intrusive manner without alienating the playerbase.  Hehe, like that's easy to do :-)

 

 

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4820

2/03/14 6:42:05 PM#53
Originally posted by Abuz0r

Your 2 examples, rift and swtor.  Free 2 play quality games.  Exactly.  The point is, to be a p2p game, you have to deliver a quality product.   Rift and SWTOR were both miserable failures that didn't deliver a nice enough product to keep their subscribers. 

 

 

Switching from p2p to f2p SWTOR doubled it's sub numbers....yes it's SUB numbers. They didn't do anything to the game or add any content...but the numbers doubled. To me that means there is something else going on in the pay model market than just game X is good and ppl will pay a sub for it and game B is bad and people wont.

And calling a game that made $130 million last year a miserable failure ...well... I wish all my projects failed that bad. But honestly you're like a year late to be trying to post all this nonsense about games failing and what not. Everyone who reads these forums on even a semi regular bases has seen the numbers and only the die hard critics are still resorting to " it's all made up, my gut feeling is way more reliable "

There's a saying about evolution and why we have two eyes and two ears but only one mouth. Clearly it didn't see the internet coming or it never would have given us ten fingers to type with.

  IGaveUp

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/09/08
Posts: 272

I can't pull it off. I gave up.

2/03/14 6:44:36 PM#54
Originally posted by DamonVile
 

And calling a game that made $130 million last year a miserable failure ...well... I wish all my projects failed that bad.

 

Hell yeah, mine too.

 

  Kevyne-Shandris

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/08
Posts: 1980

You can't † BURY † ¤¤ Holy Paladins ¤¤ As we will always __.- ASCEND -.__

2/03/14 6:45:30 PM#55
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Abuz0r

Your 2 examples, rift and swtor.  Free 2 play quality games.  Exactly.  The point is, to be a p2p game, you have to deliver a quality product.   Rift and SWTOR were both miserable failures that didn't deliver a nice enough product to keep their subscribers. 

 

 

Switching from p2p to f2p SWTOR doubled it's sub numbers....yes it's SUB numbers. They didn't do anything to the game or add any content...but the numbers doubled. To me that means there is something else going on in the pay model market than just game X is good and ppl will pay a sub for it and game B is bad and people wont.

Players.

 

Who's going to pay for a game that is on a death knell, unless there's enough people to play with in MMOs?

  Gaendric

Novice Member

Joined: 4/20/04
Posts: 279

2/03/14 6:46:53 PM#56
Originally posted by Abuz0r
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Swtor kept over 500k subs far far more than almost all mmo. They just didn't have enough to justify the 200 million it cost to make.

Keeping more subs than that is not realistic. Now they know it.

You don't make a $200m product unless the market has a void and is craving what you're creating.

When the market is somewhat satisfied, and the only thing you're bringing to the table is a competing alternative, you don't invest $200m.  That's their foolishness. 

200 mil is a huge gamble indeed.

Would be interesting to see what their initial projections were and if and how far they missed the mark. 

In the end it worked out really nicely for them though. 

 

 

The mind projection fallacy is the assumption that our subjective judgments (or lack thereof) reflect intrinsic qualities of objects or reality in general.

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4820

2/03/14 6:49:17 PM#57
Originally posted by RealmLordsKen
Originally posted by Torvaldr
I do think that overly simple models are probably going the way of the dodo as payment systems evolve, but even then it's hard to make sweeping statements about that without sounding sort of silly.

 

Ditto.  The more inclusive a statement the more likely that it is incorrect.  (btw: great reply)

 

In my opinion, the market is finding itself after a period of change.  It's tough to make money, and games are so expensive and take so long to produce that coming up with a well timed winner that makes a tidy profit is one serious challenge.  So they do their best to monetize in whatever ways they can find.  Right now, that's charge for as many things as you can in a non-intrusive manner without alienating the playerbase.  Hehe, like that's easy to do :-)

 

 

I think we're also seeing the backlash of the pay model change. Many of these game companies almost went under trying to stay with a sub model when a very large portion of the market decided they didn't want to pay like that anymore for the games that were offered. These games are making money now but dumping cash into a game that almost took the company down to expand it, isn't high on their list of things to do at the moment. I hope once they see more black and a lot less red ink, things will change.

I think change in this industry is far from over, but a great deal of it went on in the last few years and people haven't adjusted to it very well.

There's a saying about evolution and why we have two eyes and two ears but only one mouth. Clearly it didn't see the internet coming or it never would have given us ten fingers to type with.

  FlyByKnight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/31/12
Posts: 508

2/03/14 6:59:50 PM#58

Another one of these dumb ass threads with somebody dense enough to be on a "team" for a payment model.

 

I can't explain how mentally retarded this is without getting an infraction, but please know anybody whose brain operates like his (on either side of the spectrum) are indeed dumb. TeamP2P vs TeamF2P... you're both morons.

 

Smart people don't care about the payment model, they care about the value of their dollar against the content and satisfaction they get for their investment. If a game and it's offerings are worth it, it's worth it. Period.

 

Continue trying for the gold medal in the Special Olympics though.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19822

2/03/14 7:04:17 PM#59
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Swtor kept over 500k subs far far more than almost all mmo. They just didn't have enough to justify the 200 million it cost to make.
 

They have enough f2P revenue to justify the 200M cost.

http://www.superdataresearch.com/blog/us-digital-games-market/

It makes $139M based on JUST f2p revenue. Added in 500k subs ($90M a year), it made $229M in 2013 ... money back for dev costs in ONE year with change. Assuming this is the typical performance forward, it is a cash cow .. i am sure EA is very happy with it.

 

  Gaendric

Novice Member

Joined: 4/20/04
Posts: 279

2/03/14 7:23:19 PM#60
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Swtor kept over 500k subs far far more than almost all mmo. They just didn't have enough to justify the 200 million it cost to make.
 

They have enough f2P revenue to justify the 200M cost.

http://www.superdataresearch.com/blog/us-digital-games-market/

It makes $139M based on JUST f2p revenue. Added in 500k subs ($90M a year), it made $229M in 2013 ... money back for dev costs in ONE year with change. Assuming this is the typical performance forward, it is a cash cow .. i am sure EA is very happy with it.

I agree it's not a "failure" (like some make it out to be) by any means.

They had a rough patch and had to adjust to the changing market, sure, so what.

 

The mind projection fallacy is the assumption that our subjective judgments (or lack thereof) reflect intrinsic qualities of objects or reality in general.

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