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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Free Market Gaming - P2P, P2W, B2P, F2P ETC - How it works. (In the real world)

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90 posts found
  Abuz0r

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/03/12
Posts: 309

 
OP  2/03/14 7:42:38 AM#1

Gaming is like anything else in life, pick your poison.  Whether it's drugs, gambling, alcohol, or that racy internet stuff, a little of anything isn't that bad, but dig in too deep and it'll consume you.

The idea that a company should choose a payment model is similar to the idea that a company should choose a game model.  We all know that game models = wow clone, so every game is trying to break the classic game model.

Subscriptions allow for a controlled payment model, where both the end user and the company can predict their month to month costs / income.  They satisfy all but the most self-entitled gamer who feels the need to get something for free with the option of rewarding the producer.  As a rule, subscription games usually have a tad better quality, and much better customer support, considering the people playing are paying to be there.  There's also typically a slightly better enforcement of the rules, again, since the company doesn't want it's players to walk.

Buy 2 Play is the idea that you pay $50 for a game, then you never have to pay another nickel unless you want to put feathers on your armor or something.  That's all well and good?  Sounds to me like a cash grab, after the initial sale, what interest does the company have in maintaining players?  In the real world, the only reason companies make games is to make money.  After the money is made, and they still have this monstrous IT / internet bill, do you expect them to just sit on their initial profits, bleed to death, and call it a success?   No- like GW1, they introduce updates that kill the player base and get them to move on, then make another new game to make another cash grab.

Free 2 Play - yeah right.  Some are worse than others, but 80% of the F2P mmo's in this sites list start you off with a treasure chest full of game-spoiling cash shop items to wet your appetite, and from there you choose how much money you want to spend based on how much fun you want to have.  The games put time consuming obstacles in your way, long travels, steep grinds, harsh enemies, all with simple cash shop solutions.   It's like going to a clinic where they inject you with various illnesses and then offer to let you ride out the symptoms or cure it for a fee.

Pay 2 win is a patch that can be added to any game who's company is struggling financially, or needs a quick cash grab.  That potion that makes you crit nonstop for 3 minutes, or that scroll that stuns all enemies within 30m for 15 seconds.  Only $5 means you can make your opponents rage and add to your win record!!! Woot.

Anyways, I'm biased, I trust p2p games more, I know they want to maintain me as a customer, they don't want to offend me or rip me off.  Even if the game sucks, I'm only out the first month and the purchase.  I've always noticed that free 2 play games are all modeled around their cash shop and how best to get you to spend money, where p2p games are more focused on content and questing and fun.  

Just think about it from the companies perspective, they spend all this time making a 3d game where you can log in and now they need to get money out of your pocket, so that becomes the entire focus.  There's 2 ways, entertain you and get you to give them a few bucks each month, or copy paste a chinese grinder and put sparkles in the item mall.  What sounds easier to you?

We all have this dream of the all-consuming MMO life-ruiner that costs nothing and is the best game of all time, having a donate button on the main page where we can support them if we're in that mood.   These games have come and gone, primarily due to money problems, and the people who made them learned their lesson. 

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4812

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

2/03/14 8:40:49 AM#2
I disagree with pretty much everything you said. On my phone do I don't go point by point but will just leave it at that.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Grixxitt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/18/12
Posts: 556

2/03/14 9:24:27 AM#3
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
I disagree with pretty much everything you said. On my phone do I don't go point by point but will just leave it at that.

Speaking of phones, do you have a monthly phone plan that includes unlimited text/minutes and a set allowance of data, or do you pay by the minute and/or text message?

Which has the better value, and why?

The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)

-The MMO Forum Community

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4812

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

2/03/14 9:29:59 AM#4
I have unlimited everything on my phone. The wayI use it now that is the better deal. 4 months ago that was not the case and I had a pay by minute type of plan.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4812

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

2/03/14 9:34:58 AM#5
I don't think p2p is by and large better value it better cs or higher quality or even allow for controlled payment setting as they can guarantee the same set next month. I see no distance at all between f2p b2p and p2p in that regard.

It is completely dependant on how the individual plays. Which is why I disagree with pretty much every pOint he made.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4812

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

2/03/14 9:35:31 AM#6
Err can=can't

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Abuz0r

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/03/12
Posts: 309

 
OP  2/03/14 9:39:17 AM#7

You can disagree in THEORY all you want, but in PRACTICE, my points are undeniable :)

I'm sure if you comb through the list of games, you can find a game that breaks the mold, but that's what you'll have to do, comb.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12224

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

2/03/14 9:42:03 AM#8
Originally posted by Abuz0r

You can disagree in THEORY all you want, but in PRACTICE, my points are undeniable :)

I'm sure if you comb through the list of games, you can find a game that breaks the mold, but that's what you'll have to do, comb.

"Anyways, I'm biased, I trust p2p games more, I know they want to maintain me as a customer, they don't want to offend me or rip me off.  Even if the game sucks, I'm only out the first month and the purchase.  I've always noticed that free 2 play games are all modeled around their cash shop and how best to get you to spend money, where p2p games are more focused on content and questing and fun."

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4812

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

2/03/14 9:47:39 AM#9
In practice I deny all your points. I don't believe a single point you made is true.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10633

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

2/03/14 10:16:13 AM#10

What does any of this have to do with a free market?  I was expecting an analysis from an economic viewpoint.  Something along the lines of how each payment model attracts different groups of people, how each payment model overlaps the other and how the payment models can affect the game's mechanics rather than a brief overview and then an editorial.

 

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  plat0nic

Novice Member

Joined: 11/20/03
Posts: 303

2/03/14 10:21:20 AM#11
I like sparkles in the mail! and I agree with your assessment


Main Game: Eldevin (Plat0nic)
2nd Game: Path of Exile (Platonic Hate)

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4774

2/03/14 10:23:36 AM#12
Originally posted by lizardbones

What does any of this have to do with a free market?  I was expecting an analysis from an economic viewpoint.  Something along the lines of how each payment model attracts different groups of people, how each payment model overlaps the other and how the payment models can affect the game's mechanics rather than a brief overview and then an editorial.

 

 

You weren't really expecting that on this site where you ?

I was expecting all the typical stereo types of p2p floats around on angel wings pooping fairy dust on it's players and everyone is happy and everything else is a spawn of the devil with every player standing there drooling with their wallets open.

I wasn't disappointed at all. I almost find these sad little posts kind of funny.

There's a saying about evolution and why we have two eyes and two ears but only one mouth. Clearly it didn't see the internet coming or it never would have given us ten fingers to type with.

  User Deleted
2/03/14 10:25:15 AM#13

You know, after the first few sub sentences I thought: "Oh, an unbiased breakdown of the payment model"

http://tsaoshin.deviantart.com/art/Part-of-Your-No-388260981

So to put it bluntly without the pay base fan boyism

Sub = Companies can spend more for updates because they can budget better, sometimes cash shop for aesthetic items but minimal income from it.

B2P = Box sales are driven by grassroots and word of mouth growth to not "burn out" sales growth additional cash shop subsidizes and allows for small content updates after the honeymoon period.  Income somewhat unstable but usually 1st year is solid

F2P =  Cash shop is primary source of income. Initial investment in the came is lower than the others, highly unstable income but maximizes potential profits until specific changes in player base.  Only keeps a small team on payroll for many small but rapid aesthetic updates and usually employs level faster via cash shop or the Gem Combining Pyramid of Probability. (PWI uses the combing pyramid for a lot of there supplementary profits.)

Freemium = Sub + one of the others, like a free trial but significantly more locked down, some content/features behind pay wall.  Income has a portion that can be budgeted for while a separate portion can potential provide an additional unstable income bonus.

I am fine with all models, they have their place and some games just aren't built to be F2P and that's fine.  Anyone who can't see that all the options are viable business models either doesn't understand business or they refuse to be wrong in their hating.

So, having said that, time for the biased part.  I don't like the Gem Combining Pyramid of Probability like PWI uses, that is all.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10633

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

2/03/14 11:04:22 AM#14
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by lizardbones

What does any of this have to do with a free market?  I was expecting an analysis from an economic viewpoint.  Something along the lines of how each payment model attracts different groups of people, how each payment model overlaps the other and how the payment models can affect the game's mechanics rather than a brief overview and then an editorial.

 

 

You weren't really expecting that on this site where you ?

I was expecting all the typical stereo types of p2p floats around on angel wings pooping fairy dust on it's players and everyone is happy and everything else is a spawn of the devil with every player standing there drooling with their wallets open.

I wasn't disappointed at all. I almost find these sad little posts kind of funny.

 

Well, I was hopeful.  I know I shouldn't have been, but I was.

 

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5745

2/03/14 11:29:29 AM#15
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by lizardbones

What does any of this have to do with a free market?  I was expecting an analysis from an economic viewpoint.  Something along the lines of how each payment model attracts different groups of people, how each payment model overlaps the other and how the payment models can affect the game's mechanics rather than a brief overview and then an editorial.

You weren't really expecting that on this site where you ?

I was expecting all the typical stereo types of p2p floats around on angel wings pooping fairy dust on it's players and everyone is happy and everything else is a spawn of the devil with every player standing there drooling with their wallets open.

I wasn't disappointed at all. I almost find these sad little posts kind of funny.

Well, I was hopeful.  I know I shouldn't have been, but I was.

There must be this odd optimistic streak in me because I always hope that too. I always know I shouldn't and that the trite shallow analysis will disappoint, but the idea that someone will use critical thinking and logic to spark an interesting dialog always compels me to open the thread.

There seems to be this other perverse corollary to this in that the few times someone actually does deliver, no one wants to discuss it. The threads where  we regurgitate verbal diarrhea are more popular. Go figure.

My hope is that the EQN Landmark threads will have some interesting stuff to talk about since there is no NDA. That could be very refreshing. As for the OP, it's hard to disagree with an opinionated preference. The only thing I have to say to that is, "that's nice".

Curse you AquaScum!

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19709

2/03/14 11:32:58 AM#16
Originally posted by Grixxitt
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
I disagree with pretty much everything you said. On my phone do I don't go point by point but will just leave it at that.

Speaking of phones, do you have a monthly phone plan that includes unlimited text/minutes and a set allowance of data, or do you pay by the minute and/or text message?

Which has the better value, and why?

What does that to do with MMOs?

I don't pay for MMOs at all ... there is no free (even limited) phone plans out there to compare.
  IGaveUp

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/09/08
Posts: 272

I can't pull it off. I gave up.

2/03/14 11:39:21 AM#17
Originally posted by Torvaldr
 
 

I always know I shouldn't and that the trite shallow analysis will disappoint, but the idea that someone will use critical thinking and logic to spark an interesting dialog always compels me to open the thread.

 

Here's an odd, although perhaps obvious, observation I've made regarding the F2P vs Subscription debate:

 

I find it unusual that proponents of F2P systems declaring the subscription model dead, tend to point to Freemium game conversions as their proof, while these Freemium games in current form make what might be a significant portion of their income *selling subscriptions*.

 

*grin*

 

  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1222

2/03/14 11:42:37 AM#18

To me the ideal model from a purely consumer point of view (ignoring the retardedly obvious but unworkable completely free game) is to simply pay for content as it is produced like TSW or GW1 . Realistically though   a company has to pay for some infrastructure though so a small sub fee on top of this is reasonable but I do prefer most money spent on a game to be directly buying content. I like lifetime subscriptions as an option although they can be risky both for the player and the company.

 

 You're absolutely right that you need to provide direct incentive for a company to keep producing quality content. This is my main complaint against most F2P/B2P models. The people who support F2P games don't tend to prioritize the kind of content I like in games and since they're the ones paying they get to dictate what content the company will focus on.

 

 

  coretex666

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/03/12
Posts: 1820

"I shall take your position into consideration"

2/03/14 11:43:36 AM#19
Originally posted by lizardbones

What does any of this have to do with a free market?  I was expecting an analysis from an economic viewpoint.  Something along the lines of how each payment model attracts different groups of people, how each payment model overlaps the other and how the payment models can affect the game's mechanics rather than a brief overview and then an editorial.

 

I was going to say that I expected an economic analysis and that this has nothing to do with how it works "in the real world", but apparently you beat me to it.

I do agree with some of those points though. I am also a P2P supporter.

Currently playing: L2 Chronicle 4

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4730

2/03/14 11:46:55 AM#20
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Grixxitt
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
I disagree with pretty much everything you said. On my phone do I don't go point by point but will just leave it at that.

Speaking of phones, do you have a monthly phone plan that includes unlimited text/minutes and a set allowance of data, or do you pay by the minute and/or text message?

Which has the better value, and why?

What does that to do with MMOs?

I don't pay for MMOs at all ... there is no free (even limited) phone plans out there to compare.

To liken your MMO play style to a phone plan would be like you going from Verizon taking advantage of their trial plan (Assuming they offered one) ,cancelling it, then going to AT&T for their, then T-Moble, then Virgin. Every 30 days getting a whole new phone and new number to go with it. Nobody knows who you are, knows your number, you have nothing in your phone, no contacts, no apps, no data no nothing because you won't have that phone for very long. You certainly can't use the phone the way it was meant ot. and Noone else wants to use a phone that way yet you'd still run around day in and day out bragging how you get free phones.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

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