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299 posts found
  Zaga

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/12
Posts: 23

1/30/14 7:19:15 PM#201

Do we really need this thread with every new game that comes out?

 

Many years ago, this business had only one widely accepted business model: Box sales + fixed monthly subscription. But that ship has sailed... years ago.

 

People now get to choose not only between different games, but also between different business models. Taking offense at the business model someone chooses to support makes you seem like one of those idiots who become offended at someone else's choice of game to subscribe to, back in the "good old days".

 

The advice we can give you is also the same as what any of us would have told those idiots: if you don't like it, don't buy it, don't play it. In modern times, may I add don't spend money on that game's preorder, or in that game's cash shop.

 

I'm not touching ESO with a ten foot pole, but guess what? I'm ok with everyone else having their 99 bucks worth of Imperial fun in any faction (or whatever it is). And I'm sure all future ESO players are ok with me not joining them. Zenimax must be ok with that too, because they sure as hell didn't decide on a business model without surveying what kind of player base it would get them, so they already know that some Elder Scrolls fans, like me, are out. And they still decided to go for it, so either I'm not any kind of majority, or they are going to crash and burn soon. Either way there's nothing for me to find "unfair" there.

 

You may keep playing sub-based games, and others may not. Once you learn to live with it, everybody's happy.

  orionblack

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/25/09
Posts: 395

1/30/14 7:22:21 PM#202
Well said Zaga...well said.
  CazNeerg

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

1/30/14 7:24:01 PM#203
Originally posted by TangentPoint

-shrug- I don't see the problem either way.

The way I see it:

A number of people had a problem with the way races and factions were set up.

A number of people didn't.

They provided an for those who would like it, and find it worth paying a little extra for.

For those who like the idea, they get to enjoy playing an Imperial.

For those who didn't care, they'll continue playing what they had likely intended to anyway.

No one loses. 

Using myself as an example... I intend to play a Dark Elf and explore the lands of Morrowind. If the option to play an Imperial was in the game for everyone, I wouldn't be pursuing it regardless because I have no interest in it. Hence, I wouldn't be spending the extra money to unlock it. Likewise, whether others have that option or not means nothing to me. I'm playing the game the way I enjoy. So are they. More people playing as they enjoy = more people to play with = more fun for everyone. Everyone wins.

If the option did appeal to me and I felt it worthwhile, then I'd consider whether the additional cost was worth it. If it was, then I'd buy it, roll up an Imperial and decide where to start. Again.. I'm playing the game the way I enjoy. Others are playing the game the way they enjoy. Everyone wins.

It's not like you get some kind of power advantage over others with it. They're not selling power. It's not part of the "core game", or it would be included. They're selling some additional fluff. Same game.. Still gotta pick a race. Still gotta pick a faction. Still gotta get through the content like everyone else. You just get to do it in a different skin. 

-shrug- 

I could see why people are upset by it... I do agree their timing seems a bit off... But I don't see anything in the situation that would make it a deal-breaker for me personally.

Don't be so rational, it doesn't belong here!

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

  Gaendric

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/20/04
Posts: 280

1/30/14 7:27:06 PM#204
Originally posted by evilastro
Originally posted by Cephus404

It's quite simple.  If you don't like what they're doing... DON'T PLAY THE FUCKING GAME!

Wow, it's simple when you think about it.

 

It's quite simple. If you don't like what he's saying.... DON'T READ THE FUCKING THREAD!

Wow, it's simple when you think about it.

 

 

Works both ways you see. Stop trying to stifle discussion about issues that MMO players are concerned about. If you aren't concerned about it, feel free to say so without being rude.  Most people who think this is poor form probably won't play the game, but they don't want it to set an industry trend / standard for games they actually want to play in the future because apathetic MMO locusts don't care enough to stand up for their convictions.

I agree his post was inappropiate and bad form.

That doesn't mean you should answer with fallacies though.

"apathetic MMO locusts"? Really? You point fingers at others while doing the same?

If you want to argue, post real arguments, not ad hominems.

The mind projection fallacy is the assumption that our subjective judgments (or lack thereof) reflect intrinsic qualities of objects or reality in general.

  Gaendric

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/20/04
Posts: 280

1/30/14 7:30:40 PM#205
Originally posted by Zaga

Do we really need this thread with every new game that comes out?

 

Many years ago, this business had only one widely accepted business model: Box sales + fixed monthly subscription. But that ship has sailed... years ago.

 

People now get to choose not only between different games, but also between different business models. Taking offense at the business model someone chooses to support makes you seem like one of those idiots who become offended at someone else's choice of game to subscribe to, back in the "good old days".

 

The advice we can give you is also the same as what any of us would have told those idiots: if you don't like it, don't buy it, don't play it. In modern times, may I add don't spend money on that game's preorder, or in that game's cash shop.

 

I'm not touching ESO with a ten foot pole, but guess what? I'm ok with everyone else having their 99 bucks worth of Imperial fun in any faction (or whatever it is). And I'm sure all future ESO players are ok with me not joining them. Zenimax must be ok with that too, because they sure as hell didn't decide on a business model without surveying what kind of player base it would get them, so they already know that some Elder Scrolls fans, like me, are out. And they still decided to go for it, so either I'm not any kind of majority, or they are going to crash and burn soon. Either way there's nothing for me to find "unfair" there.

 

You may keep playing sub-based games, and others may not. Once you learn to live with it, everybody's happy.

Fully agree.

Besides the namecalling. That was uncalled for and just weakens your arguments.

People really need to understand that companies can't arbitrarily set prices. The market sets the prices. Not buying is how you can influence the process if you don't like the price they suggest.

 

The mind projection fallacy is the assumption that our subjective judgments (or lack thereof) reflect intrinsic qualities of objects or reality in general.

  ozmono

Novice Member

Joined: 3/12/06
Posts: 1045

1/30/14 7:42:59 PM#206
Originally posted by Gaendric
Originally posted by evilastro
Originally posted by Cephus404

It's quite simple.  If you don't like what they're doing... DON'T PLAY THE FUCKING GAME!

Wow, it's simple when you think about it.

 

It's quite simple. If you don't like what he's saying.... DON'T READ THE FUCKING THREAD!

Wow, it's simple when you think about it.

 

 

Works both ways you see. Stop trying to stifle discussion about issues that MMO players are concerned about. If you aren't concerned about it, feel free to say so without being rude.  Most people who think this is poor form probably won't play the game, but they don't want it to set an industry trend / standard for games they actually want to play in the future because apathetic MMO locusts don't care enough to stand up for their convictions.

I agree his post was inappropiate and bad form.

That doesn't mean you should answer with fallacies though.

"apathetic MMO locusts"? Really? You point fingers at others while doing the same?

If you want to argue, post real arguments, not ad hominems.

It's insulting and it's hyperbole (thanks for teaching me that word too :) ) but is it really a fallacy? I know that once upon a time I could have been described as being just that and judging by my impressions of people on forums such as these and my understanding of initial playerbase followed by a sharp decline every major release I don't think I was alone. I wouldn't have liked it and it would have been an exaggeration but I don't think it's completely false.

 

Either way, I agree, people need to calm down.

  User Deleted
1/30/14 7:52:21 PM#207
Originally posted by Gaendric
Originally posted by evilastro
Originally posted by Cephus404

It's quite simple.  If you don't like what they're doing... DON'T PLAY THE FUCKING GAME!

Wow, it's simple when you think about it.

 

It's quite simple. If you don't like what he's saying.... DON'T READ THE FUCKING THREAD!

Wow, it's simple when you think about it.

 

 

Works both ways you see. Stop trying to stifle discussion about issues that MMO players are concerned about. If you aren't concerned about it, feel free to say so without being rude.  Most people who think this is poor form probably won't play the game, but they don't want it to set an industry trend / standard for games they actually want to play in the future because apathetic MMO locusts don't care enough to stand up for their convictions.

I agree his post was inappropiate and bad form.

That doesn't mean you should answer with fallacies though.

"apathetic MMO locusts"? Really? You point fingers at others while doing the same?

If you want to argue, post real arguments, not ad hominems.

 

My arguments have already been posted on the matter, this post was just based on my annoyance at people wanting to stop the discussion altogether by posting rude comments.

Regarding 'apathetic MMO locusts' ... how else would you describe the masses that descend on every new MMO, claim that it is faultless and that the whiners need to shut up, and then leave in droves months later?  Seems like a pretty apt description of pretty much every single MMO launch since EQ2 / WoW.  ESO will be no different.

  Gaendric

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/20/04
Posts: 280

1/30/14 7:59:19 PM#208
Originally posted by ozmono
Originally posted by Gaendric
Originally posted by evilastro
Originally posted by Cephus404

It's quite simple.  If you don't like what they're doing... DON'T PLAY THE FUCKING GAME!

Wow, it's simple when you think about it.

 

It's quite simple. If you don't like what he's saying.... DON'T READ THE FUCKING THREAD!

Wow, it's simple when you think about it.

 

 

Works both ways you see. Stop trying to stifle discussion about issues that MMO players are concerned about. If you aren't concerned about it, feel free to say so without being rude.  Most people who think this is poor form probably won't play the game, but they don't want it to set an industry trend / standard for games they actually want to play in the future because apathetic MMO locusts don't care enough to stand up for their convictions.

I agree his post was inappropiate and bad form.

That doesn't mean you should answer with fallacies though.

"apathetic MMO locusts"? Really? You point fingers at others while doing the same?

If you want to argue, post real arguments, not ad hominems.

It's insulting and it's hyperbole (thanks for teaching me that word too :) ) but is it really a fallacy? I know that once upon a time I could have been described as being just that and judging by my impressions of people on forums such as these and my understanding of initial playerbase followed by a sharp decline every major release I don't think I was alone. I wouldn't have liked it and it would have been an exaggeration but I don't think it's completely false.

 

Either way, I agree, people need to calm down.

He used the attack to weaken the counter-argument's side by attaching these negative traits to them. That's why I understood it as fallacy. 

If he is just namecalling for the namecalling's sake without having it influence the arguments/discussion, then I agree it wouldn't be one.

If I understood it wrong, then shame on me.

 

The mind projection fallacy is the assumption that our subjective judgments (or lack thereof) reflect intrinsic qualities of objects or reality in general.

  Gaendric

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/20/04
Posts: 280

1/30/14 8:02:15 PM#209
Originally posted by evilastro

 

My arguments have already been posted on the matter, this post was just based on my annoyance at people wanting to stop the discussion altogether by posting rude comments.

I totally agree to that part. I am annoyed too, hence my post frenzy. :p

We come here for good discussions not for an onslaught of attacks, cuss words and fallacies.

 

The mind projection fallacy is the assumption that our subjective judgments (or lack thereof) reflect intrinsic qualities of objects or reality in general.

  ozmono

Novice Member

Joined: 3/12/06
Posts: 1045

1/30/14 8:05:14 PM#210
Originally posted by Gaendric
Originally posted by ozmono
Originally posted by Gaendric
Originally posted by evilastro
Originally posted by Cephus404

It's quite simple.  If you don't like what they're doing... DON'T PLAY THE FUCKING GAME!

Wow, it's simple when you think about it.

 

It's quite simple. If you don't like what he's saying.... DON'T READ THE FUCKING THREAD!

Wow, it's simple when you think about it.

 

 

Works both ways you see. Stop trying to stifle discussion about issues that MMO players are concerned about. If you aren't concerned about it, feel free to say so without being rude.  Most people who think this is poor form probably won't play the game, but they don't want it to set an industry trend / standard for games they actually want to play in the future because apathetic MMO locusts don't care enough to stand up for their convictions.

I agree his post was inappropiate and bad form.

That doesn't mean you should answer with fallacies though.

"apathetic MMO locusts"? Really? You point fingers at others while doing the same?

If you want to argue, post real arguments, not ad hominems.

It's insulting and it's hyperbole (thanks for teaching me that word too :) ) but is it really a fallacy? I know that once upon a time I could have been described as being just that and judging by my impressions of people on forums such as these and my understanding of initial playerbase followed by a sharp decline every major release I don't think I was alone. I wouldn't have liked it and it would have been an exaggeration but I don't think it's completely false.

 

Either way, I agree, people need to calm down.

You used the attack to weaken the counter-argument's side by attaching these negative traits to them. That's why I understood it as fallacy. 

If you are just namecalling for the namecalling's sake without having it influence the arguments/discussion, then I agree it wouldn't be one.

If I understood you wrong, then shame on me.

 

Well I'm not namecalling for namecalling sake. I didn't even use the word "locust". You were calling for a balanced discussion and I thought he had a point. I acknowledged it was hyperbole and that it was insulting and I didn't place myself completely above the insult. I just thought there was some truth in there and thought it worth exploring. I can understand why you may have thought I was trying to "weaken the counter argument" though and I'm not completely free of bias so there is no need for shame.

  killion81

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/31/06
Posts: 894

1/30/14 8:06:22 PM#211
Originally posted by Gaendric
Originally posted by evilastro

 

My arguments have already been posted on the matter, this post was just based on my annoyance at people wanting to stop the discussion altogether by posting rude comments.

I totally agree to that part. I am annoyed too, hence my post frenzy. :p

We come here for good discussions not for an onslaught of attacks, cuss words and fallacies.

 

 

Don't forget the paid shills.  Well, I assume they are paid shills.  You would have to be to completely ignore all reason and maintain illogical opinions that are detrimental to the consumer.  I mean, they're consumers too.  I'd think you'd have to be paid to sell out like that.

  Gaendric

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/20/04
Posts: 280

1/30/14 8:08:19 PM#212
Originally posted by ozmono
Originally posted by Gaendric
Originally posted by ozmono
Originally posted by Gaendric
Originally posted by evilastro
Originally posted by Cephus404

It's quite simple.  If you don't like what they're doing... DON'T PLAY THE FUCKING GAME!

Wow, it's simple when you think about it.

 

It's quite simple. If you don't like what he's saying.... DON'T READ THE FUCKING THREAD!

Wow, it's simple when you think about it.

 

 

Works both ways you see. Stop trying to stifle discussion about issues that MMO players are concerned about. If you aren't concerned about it, feel free to say so without being rude.  Most people who think this is poor form probably won't play the game, but they don't want it to set an industry trend / standard for games they actually want to play in the future because apathetic MMO locusts don't care enough to stand up for their convictions.

I agree his post was inappropiate and bad form.

That doesn't mean you should answer with fallacies though.

"apathetic MMO locusts"? Really? You point fingers at others while doing the same?

If you want to argue, post real arguments, not ad hominems.

It's insulting and it's hyperbole (thanks for teaching me that word too :) ) but is it really a fallacy? I know that once upon a time I could have been described as being just that and judging by my impressions of people on forums such as these and my understanding of initial playerbase followed by a sharp decline every major release I don't think I was alone. I wouldn't have liked it and it would have been an exaggeration but I don't think it's completely false.

 

Either way, I agree, people need to calm down.

You used the attack to weaken the counter-argument's side by attaching these negative traits to them. That's why I understood it as fallacy. 

If you are just namecalling for the namecalling's sake without having it influence the arguments/discussion, then I agree it wouldn't be one.

If I understood you wrong, then shame on me.

 

Well I'm not namecalling for namecalling sake. I didn't even use the word "locust". You were calling for a balanced discussion and I thought he had a point. I acknowledged it was hyperbole and that it was insulting and I didn't place myself completely above the insult. I just thought there was some truth in there and thought it worth exploring. I can understand why you may have thought I was trying to "weaken the counter argument" though and I'm not completely free of bias so there is no need for shame.

Yeah that was my bad, you were referring to my comment on someone else's post. I thought it was yours. Sorry.

 

The mind projection fallacy is the assumption that our subjective judgments (or lack thereof) reflect intrinsic qualities of objects or reality in general.

  plat0nic

Novice Member

Joined: 11/20/03
Posts: 303

1/30/14 8:09:17 PM#213
After 15 years of MMO's one thing I've learned is that I have NEVER been happy if I've played the shit out of an open-beta and run my powergame on a new release.  Of the 15 or so mmorpgs i've made my b*tch, all but a couple lasted the 2 month test. With age comes wisdom, and I THINK I may just sit out the release on ESO and give it a month or two before i bust my nut all over it. Every time I hit endgame I get dissapointed with the lack of vision. It's like they didn't know people would max out in the first week. Maybe I'll just give the company the benefit of the doubt this time, and expect that they don't know people are going to max out in a week and give them their buffer to come out with and end game pvp grind or pve that makes sense. 


Main Game: Eldevin (Plat0nic)
2nd Game: Path of Exile (Platonic Hate)

  User Deleted
1/30/14 8:11:36 PM#214
Originally posted by Gaendric

He used the attack to weaken the counter-argument's side by attaching these negative traits to them. That's why I understood it as fallacy. 

If he is just namecalling for the namecalling's sake without having it influence the arguments/discussion, then I agree it wouldn't be one.

If I understood it wrong, then shame on me.

 

 

The MMO locust comment wasn't intended as an attack on Cephus' character, it was more of an observation of the industry as a whole.  New game comes out with obvious flaws, some people try to point them out and get shut down by cries of 'Shut up and don't play if you don't like it!', then a few months down the track servers are closing and the same locusts have moved on to the next big thing.

These type of players aren't interested in sustainable MMO worlds, only in their own enjoyment for a few months, which is fine but it's not helpful for the industry in the long run.

  CazNeerg

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

1/30/14 8:12:06 PM#215
Originally posted by killion81

Don't forget the paid shills.  Well, I assume they are paid shills.  You would have to be to completely ignore all reason and maintain illogical opinions that are detrimental to the consumer.  I mean, they're consumers too.  I'd think you'd have to be paid to sell out like that.

You do realize that not everyone has the same honest opinion about what is detrimental to consumers, right?

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

  killion81

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/31/06
Posts: 894

1/30/14 8:14:07 PM#216
Originally posted by CazNeerg
Originally posted by killion81

Don't forget the paid shills.  Well, I assume they are paid shills.  You would have to be to completely ignore all reason and maintain illogical opinions that are detrimental to the consumer.  I mean, they're consumers too.  I'd think you'd have to be paid to sell out like that.

You do realize that not everyone has the same honest opinion about what is detrimental to consumers, right?

 

Yes, I also realize that some people are wrong and others are right.  Opinions impact people's perception, but they don't necessarily change whether they are wrong or right.  Reality doesn't change because of opinions :) 

  ozmono

Novice Member

Joined: 3/12/06
Posts: 1045

1/30/14 8:16:35 PM#217
Originally posted by Gaendric
Originally posted by ozmono
Originally posted by Gaendric
Originally posted by ozmono
Originally posted by Gaendric
Originally posted by evilastro
Originally posted by Cephus404

It's quite simple.  If you don't like what they're doing... DON'T PLAY THE FUCKING GAME!

Wow, it's simple when you think about it.

 

It's quite simple. If you don't like what he's saying.... DON'T READ THE FUCKING THREAD!

Wow, it's simple when you think about it.

 

 

Works both ways you see. Stop trying to stifle discussion about issues that MMO players are concerned about. If you aren't concerned about it, feel free to say so without being rude.  Most people who think this is poor form probably won't play the game, but they don't want it to set an industry trend / standard for games they actually want to play in the future because apathetic MMO locusts don't care enough to stand up for their convictions.

I agree his post was inappropiate and bad form.

That doesn't mean you should answer with fallacies though.

"apathetic MMO locusts"? Really? You point fingers at others while doing the same?

If you want to argue, post real arguments, not ad hominems.

It's insulting and it's hyperbole (thanks for teaching me that word too :) ) but is it really a fallacy? I know that once upon a time I could have been described as being just that and judging by my impressions of people on forums such as these and my understanding of initial playerbase followed by a sharp decline every major release I don't think I was alone. I wouldn't have liked it and it would have been an exaggeration but I don't think it's completely false.

 

Either way, I agree, people need to calm down.

You used the attack to weaken the counter-argument's side by attaching these negative traits to them. That's why I understood it as fallacy. 

If you are just namecalling for the namecalling's sake without having it influence the arguments/discussion, then I agree it wouldn't be one.

If I understood you wrong, then shame on me.

 

Well I'm not namecalling for namecalling sake. I didn't even use the word "locust". You were calling for a balanced discussion and I thought he had a point. I acknowledged it was hyperbole and that it was insulting and I didn't place myself completely above the insult. I just thought there was some truth in there and thought it worth exploring. I can understand why you may have thought I was trying to "weaken the counter argument" though and I'm not completely free of bias so there is no need for shame.

Yeah that was my bad, you were referring to my comment on someone else's post. I thought it was yours. Sorry.

 

No problem, I think I've done it more than once. It wasn't necessary but thanks for apologizing.

  Gaendric

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/20/04
Posts: 280

1/30/14 8:18:13 PM#218
Originally posted by CazNeerg
Originally posted by killion81

Don't forget the paid shills.  Well, I assume they are paid shills.  You would have to be to completely ignore all reason and maintain illogical opinions that are detrimental to the consumer.  I mean, they're consumers too.  I'd think you'd have to be paid to sell out like that.

You do realize that not everyone has the same honest opinion about what is detrimental to consumers, right?

If this thread has shown anything, then that there indeed are very varied opinions on this.

 

The mind projection fallacy is the assumption that our subjective judgments (or lack thereof) reflect intrinsic qualities of objects or reality in general.

  CazNeerg

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

1/30/14 8:22:45 PM#219

Originally posted by killion81

 Yes, I also realize that some people are wrong and others are right.  Opinions impact people's perception, but they don't necessarily change whether they are wrong or right.  Reality doesn't change because of opinions :) 

And do you realize that feeling very strongly about your opinion doesn't suddenly morph it into The One And Only Truth On The Matter?

Originally posted by Gaendric

Originally posted by CazNeerg
Originally posted by killion81

Don't forget the paid shills.  Well, I assume they are paid shills.  You would have to be to completely ignore all reason and maintain illogical opinions that are detrimental to the consumer.  I mean, they're consumers too.  I'd think you'd have to be paid to sell out like that.

You do realize that not everyone has the same honest opinion about what is detrimental to consumers, right?

If this thread has shown anything, then that there indeed are very varied opinions on this.

Oh no, didn't you get the memo? Anyone who disagrees with the Correct View must be a "paid shill," because it isn't possible to actually disagree with The Truth.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

  aaradun

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/07/04
Posts: 89

1/30/14 8:24:09 PM#220

OP, what rock have you been living under. the collector edition is not new pretty much all MMO even the F2P had it.

As for the Imperial thing, it's just really an additional race that you can play on either side. you won't be able to go to the other side, you just pick a side and start with that race. An additional Race is not content, it's no more then having to buy a class in a lot of F2p games. nothing really special about it.

Your just making a big fuss for really nothing. There's no additional content, it's just a different race you can start with sheesh.

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