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Elder Scrolls Online

Elder Scrolls Online 

General Discussion  » Poll - was the decision regarding the CE and pre-orders worth the backlash?

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92 posts found
  CazNeerg

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

1/30/14 12:38:25 PM#61

Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by killion81 

And it's a false argument.  Basically the straw man logical fallacy. 

Most of the people that I see calling this out as a money grab are people that have purchased more expensive CEs in the past.  Many of them are also supporters of the subscription model. 

There is a very large difference between not being able to afford something and feeling like something is designed to take advantage of the consumer.

Take advantage of who? Both people who have been wanting to play as an Imperial all along?

I am one of those two people, and I can confirm that I do not feel taken advantage of.  On the contrary, I feel like this is the first well conceived Collector's Edition in a long time, with bonuses that actually matter to me.  I especially don't feel taken advantage of because I am getting the physical edition, which for what it provides is extremely under-priced relative to comparable collector's editions.

Originally posted by killion81

The monetization methods of any product or service can be designed in a way to take advantage of the consumer.  There are entire consumer advocacy groups designed to prevent this type of behavior and without them, things would be a lot worse for everyone.  Why?  Because a ton of people take the same stance that you are.

You are welcome to laugh about it all you want.  However, laughing at something does not change it's validity.

It is true that laughing at something valid does not change it's validity.  It is also true that treating something invalid seriously does not grant it validity.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

  waynejr2

Elite Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3785

RIP City of Heroes!

1/30/14 2:57:16 PM#62
Originally posted by funyahns
Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by funyahns
Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by DamonVile

When it comes to games your avg gamers don't rally behind a cause, doesn't argue about payment models, don't rage about development directions....or anything else you see go on, on forums.

They buy a game, play it till they get bored and then buy something else.

+1.  If anything I feel sad and embarrased for the adults who are buttsore over this.  Children get a pass on getting upset.

IMO, any press is good press as it gets people to hear about the game.

 Yes because calling people buttsore is a way to show how adult and mature you are.  I suppose though children getting a pass is fair enough to explain it away.   I don't think most people honestly care about this game enough either way.  The problem is that other gamers jumping up to throw good money after bad effects all of us.

 I think a lot you are underestimating the knowledge base of people outside of forums.  Pretending that you know more about them and acting as if they cannot process the information and come out to the same conclusions is pretty insulting to them.  Anyone who is going to agree to buy a game and then subscribe to is going to do a little homework on the subject. Not just randomly throw money away at it.

 

Buttsore is just meaning upset.  If I wrote upset, you might say I was insulting. If I used yet another term, you might make another claim.  Deal with it.

  Its not insulting its just sophomoric  phrase to use when talking about maturity levels.  In this case bad press is not good though unless they are planning to come out later and say they have listened to feedback and will address the issue.  Which is possibility sense there seems to be a lot of dislike for what they are doing with this.   Its difficult to justify when one of your leads has mocked f2p and pay gates.

In you option, which doesn't count for anything.

  Comaf

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/13/10
Posts: 1142

I want an mmorpg where pvp matters, my enemies are not my race or class, and community matters.

1/30/14 3:03:10 PM#63
Originally posted by DSWBeef
Yes. Only a vocal minority seems to be upset (im upset) but many players are content with this. Which is sad to me. This pay wall race and any race on alliance crap has left a bad taste in my mouth. Im out for the time being.

"This pay wall race and any race on alliance crap has left a bad taste in my mouth" - again it's Imperials only for the "any faction" race allowance.  Secondly, considering the games you listed as playing, the concept of the same races NOT clashing against one another must be a strange one indeed.  So, why would this have bothered you had it even been true that any race on the alliance was possible with the CE purchase?

 

I call drama where I see it - and I wonder how many people are just trying to badmouth this title because it's the one fekken game that has the balls to do something different from all the others (other than Dark Age of Camelot which sadly, is no longer viable in the industry due to negligence and lack of development - congrats EA...).

 

If you aren't sure what's so different about TESO vs say, GW2 or EQ Next...then I am more than certain this was just troll spam.

 

Play as an Imperial

Play as an Imperial and play in any Alliance. Gain unique bonuses, crafting styles, gear and more!

 

  winter

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/08/03
Posts: 2268

1/30/14 3:03:55 PM#64
Originally posted by CazNeerg
Originally posted by markrain5
Originally posted by CazNeerg
Thinking that sentiments on this forum, positive or negative, are in any way representative of general public opinion would be a mistake.  Backlash here does not necessarily indicate any kind of "substantial" backlash.

I've seen backlash everywhere and I go on a ton of different ESO sites and forums...

Replace "this forum" with "forums," and I still stand by the point.  In the context of the millions of people who might buy this game, the ones hanging out on the internet talking about it two months before hand aren't even a drop in the bucket.

 ^this^

 Not to mention it frequently seems posters on these forums seem to have a bloated self image of their importance. You know as in their opinion is Always the majority, anyone that disagrees with them is wrong, insane, weak willed etc. that there is always only one way to play a game (ie their way) That anything they don't like will always fail because of already mentioned above reasons which to them are facts.

  Vunak23

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/10
Posts: 659

In your house Eatin' your Cookies!

1/30/14 3:04:38 PM#65
Originally posted by Grakulen
Originally posted by CazNeerg
Originally posted by markrain5
Originally posted by CazNeerg
Thinking that sentiments on this forum, positive or negative, are in any way representative of general public opinion would be a mistake.  Backlash here does not necessarily indicate any kind of "substantial" backlash.

I've seen backlash everywhere and I go on a ton of different ESO sites and forums...

Replace "this forum" with "forums," and I still stand by the point.  In the context of the millions of people who might buy this game, the ones hanging out on the internet talking about it two months before hand aren't even a drop in the bucket.

+1

Not good seeing this from staff. So you consider your own forum meaningless and any discussion on them is meaningless drivel. 

Sorry but I have to disagree with this. The backlash seen on various forums and news outlets across the internet on other issues (i.e. The SOE debacle with their currency) were the reasons for the overturn of those decisions. Statistically speaking if you have such a large group of people that are disappointed that number will translate into a larger number when/if you could poll your entire audience. 

"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  CazNeerg

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

1/30/14 3:06:52 PM#66
Originally posted by Vunak23

Sorry but I have to disagree with this. The backlash seen on various forums and news outlets across the internet on other issues (i.e. The SOE debacle with their currency) were the reasons for the overturn of those decisions. Statistically speaking if you have such a large group of people that are disappointed that number will translate into a larger number when/if you could poll your entire audience. 

Only if it is a representative sample can you expect any meaningful correlation between the stats of the sample and the stats of the public generally.  We have no reason to believe these forums are a representative sample.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

  NightBandit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/25/07
Posts: 790

Make friends not money, then wealth will follow.

1/30/14 3:09:18 PM#67
Originally posted by Margulis

So forget about your opinions on whether or not there should be an Imperial race locked to the CE edition, or whether you should be able to play in any alliance with any race.  This question is whether or not that choice, in your mind, is worth the backlash and hate that the game is receiving as a result? 

 

Do you think the potential boosted CE sales due to the Imperial race will overshadow the negativity and people no longer buying because of that decision?  Or do you think it's the other way around?  One thing that can't be denied is this game has received quite a bit of negative press (a lot of which I personally have defended against at one time or another) and this is bringing an extremely large amount more of it.

 

 

The comments from people on this forum will have no influence at all because this site has no credibility when it comes to trying to influence people and most of the people moaning wont buy the game anyway and the people who will wont be concerned about the negativity because they will make their own judgement in the open beta. Zenimax will and have charged what they want for each pack and the game will make money and IMO those waiting for it to go F2P could have a long wait. 

The Bandit

  Vunak23

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/10
Posts: 659

In your house Eatin' your Cookies!

1/30/14 3:11:54 PM#68
Originally posted by CazNeerg
Originally posted by Vunak23

Sorry but I have to disagree with this. The backlash seen on various forums and news outlets across the internet on other issues (i.e. The SOE debacle with their currency) were the reasons for the overturn of those decisions. Statistically speaking if you have such a large group of people that are disappointed that number will translate into a larger number when/if you could poll your entire audience. 

Only if it is a representative sample can you expect any meaningful correlation between the stats of the sample and the stats of the public generally.  We have no reason to believe these forums are a representative sample.

Outside the fact that this is an MMORPG forums talking about MMORPGs in the ESO subforum talking about ESO with a poll asking the exact question the sample would be indicative of. Sorry but anyone doing a sample of an audience would love to get their hands on this many people to poll for a general correlation of data. 

"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 4026

1/30/14 3:21:44 PM#69
Originally posted by CazNeerg

Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by killion81 

And it's a false argument.  Basically the straw man logical fallacy. 

Most of the people that I see calling this out as a money grab are people that have purchased more expensive CEs in the past.  Many of them are also supporters of the subscription model. 

There is a very large difference between not being able to afford something and feeling like something is designed to take advantage of the consumer.

Take advantage of who? Both people who have been wanting to play as an Imperial all along?

I am one of those two people, and I can confirm that I do not feel taken advantage of.  On the contrary, I feel like this is the first well conceived Collector's Edition in a long time, with bonuses that actually matter to me.  I especially don't feel taken advantage of because I am getting the physical edition, which for what it provides is extremely under-priced relative to comparable collector's editions.

 

I'm happy for you. I know you're one of the ones who is really looking forward to playing soon. So much the better now you get to be an Imp.

I got the CE as well but the Imperial was not a factor in my decission. Still, it's nice to see a more meaningful perk than usual for the extra $20 of a CE.

  JJ82

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/02/13
Posts: 1053

1/30/14 3:24:33 PM#70
Originally posted by Margulis

So forget about your opinions on whether or not there should be an Imperial race locked to the CE edition, or whether you should be able to play in any alliance with any race.  This question is whether or not that choice, in your mind, is worth the backlash and hate that the game is receiving as a result? 

Sadly the two are tied together.

For over a year Zenimax has been telling everyone that's angry that they HAD TO lock the races and factions because its the only way to have faction pride and that sacrifices have to be made to make an SRPG into an MMO.

Now with this, they not only just slapped those people in the face, but also the diehard DaoC fanatics that were rabidly defending it. All this does is solidify that TESO did not have to be made with all its limitations and that we should be getting an open world with no faction boarders or pvp stuck behind walls and even worse, could drive some DaoC players away because they suddenly cant have any pride at all in their alliance.

 

"People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  Bad.dog

Elite Member

Joined: 5/20/10
Posts: 1135

1/30/14 5:06:14 PM#71
Originally posted by JJ82
Originally posted by Margulis

So forget about your opinions on whether or not there should be an Imperial race locked to the CE edition, or whether you should be able to play in any alliance with any race.  This question is whether or not that choice, in your mind, is worth the backlash and hate that the game is receiving as a result? 

Sadly the two are tied together.

For over a year Zenimax has been telling everyone that's angry that they HAD TO lock the races and factions because its the only way to have faction pride and that sacrifices have to be made to make an SRPG into an MMO.

Now with this, they not only just slapped those people in the face, but also the diehard DaoC fanatics that were rabidly defending it. All this does is solidify that TESO did not have to be made with all its limitations and that we should be getting an open world with no faction boarders or pvp stuck behind walls and even worse, could drive some DaoC players away because they suddenly cant have any pride at all in their alliance.

 

I don't think there is much pride in fighting in an arena anyways

  JJ82

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/02/13
Posts: 1053

1/30/14 5:17:51 PM#72
Originally posted by Bad.dog
Originally posted by JJ82
Originally posted by Margulis

So forget about your opinions on whether or not there should be an Imperial race locked to the CE edition, or whether you should be able to play in any alliance with any race.  This question is whether or not that choice, in your mind, is worth the backlash and hate that the game is receiving as a result? 

Sadly the two are tied together.

For over a year Zenimax has been telling everyone that's angry that they HAD TO lock the races and factions because its the only way to have faction pride and that sacrifices have to be made to make an SRPG into an MMO.

Now with this, they not only just slapped those people in the face, but also the diehard DaoC fanatics that were rabidly defending it. All this does is solidify that TESO did not have to be made with all its limitations and that we should be getting an open world with no faction boarders or pvp stuck behind walls and even worse, could drive some DaoC players away because they suddenly cant have any pride at all in their alliance.

 

I don't think there is much pride in fighting in an arena anyways

I agree, the idea that pride has to be created by someone else for you is laughable, but that is exactly how the developers feel, and it goes all the way back to DaoC, the only other video game he helped create (no I am not counting his one single MUD without graphics). Point still stands, they just made all their previous arguments to angry TES fans look like the poor game design decisions everyone said they were.

"People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  pmcubed

Novice Member

Joined: 12/17/05
Posts: 291

1/30/14 6:07:04 PM#73
Originally posted by dumpcat

Originally posted by Vonatar
"The cost of anything unaffordable is unfair in the eyes of the person who can't afford it."

And they feel as if an injustice has been dealt to them....Gotta love the entitlement generation.

It's accountability we are concerned about, not the money.  If you want to think of that as entitlement, go ahead.  But, I'm not a blind sheep.  Idly standing around will exacerbate the shallow, box sale milking tactics that drive MMO's F2P.

Why couldn't they simply add another cosmetic item to the CE instead of the imperial race?

Why do they have pre-purchase plans before the NDA is lifted? (it shows a definite lack of confidence in your product)

They completely leave out the customer service variable in their marketing equation because they are riding on the coat tails of a popular IP.  F. That.  SWTOR and Star Trek already tried it.

  spizz

Novice Member

Joined: 7/11/04
Posts: 2585

1/30/14 6:21:27 PM#74

Of course the decision to play every race in every faction and to pre-order a special race will hurt the sales.

You guys are naive if you think this wont influence sales numbers not at all. Iam not saying this will hurt a lot but there will be people who wont probably not buy TESO because of this decision alone but also combined with other ingame issues seen in the beta or in the upcomming open beta.

  Uhwop

Elite Member

Joined: 3/20/10
Posts: 1689

1/30/14 6:42:32 PM#75
Originally posted by Grakulen
Originally posted by DamonVile

When it comes to games your avg gamers don't rally behind a cause, doesn't argue about payment models, don't rage about development directions....or anything else you see go on, on forums.

They buy a game, play it till they get bored and then buy something else.

I really wish we just had +1 buttons on these forums.

 

When they announced the game there was no plan for first person, but they changed direction and added that due to feedback they received. 

Pretty sure the any race/ any faction being a part of the pre order is due to the feedback they've received, as well as the inclusion of the imperial race in the special edition 

Developers, every day, use the general feedback they receive to make development decision.  Many games now are being directly developed based on feedback. 

Almost all of that feedback comes from forums. 

 

The only people who dismiss what gets said on forums, are other players the developers very much keep an eye on how things are received and make decisions based on it. 

 

It seems that most of the people saying it's "no big deal" are the ones that already intended to pre order or get the special edition anyways.  Seems like it's been a pretty big deal for those people who aren't interested in dropping a hundred dollars on a game, or for whatever reason don't wish to preorder, and won't be able to get the things they wanted in the game from the beginning. 

Kind of cruddy to just disregard the criticism because you don't mind paying for it.  In the meantime, as the situation currently stands, Zeni online is asking people to fork over a hundred dollars to play a race an awful lot of FANS have been asking for. 

 

 

Coincidentally there's been a lot of forum negativety towards many other MMO's, many of which no longer operate or are F2P.  I'm pretty sure developers don't share the idea that forum feedback is inconsequential. 

 

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17501

1/30/14 6:50:51 PM#76
Originally posted by DamonVile

When it comes to games your avg gamers don't rally behind a cause, doesn't argue about payment models, don't rage about development directions....or anything else you see go on, on forums.

They buy a game, play it till they get bored and then buy something else.

You are correct.

Heck, I remember waiting in line to play ESO at PAX (twice) and I struck up conversations with the people around me.

Most of them were pretty in the dark with mmo's and pretty much were interested in it becasue it was elder scrolls and they liked those games. It turns out that they didn't really follow forums or "mmo's" and just wanted to play the game.

 

At first I was surprised but then "light dawned on marble head" and I had to come back to reality that not everyone hung around forums arguing and learning about games.

 

  muffins89

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/15/12
Posts: 1255

1/30/14 6:54:15 PM#77
the "backlash" only seems real to those who look at forums often.  out in the real world no one even mentioned this game today.  there has been no backlash.

I think the prostitute mod corrupted your game files man. -elhefen

  JJ82

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/02/13
Posts: 1053

1/30/14 7:02:23 PM#78
Originally posted by muffins89
the "backlash" only seems real to those who look at forums often.  out in the real world no one even mentioned this game today.  there has been no backlash.

Wait, so the forums are not part of the real world, nor the people posting on them?!?

Perhaps it will only be real to you if your boss ran screaming past you at work about how his realm pride is dead?

Lets try harder to minimalize people with differing opinions shall we.

"People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  keithian

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/20/06
Posts: 3025

1/30/14 7:06:34 PM#79
Originally posted by JJ82
Originally posted by muffins89
the "backlash" only seems real to those who look at forums often.  out in the real world no one even mentioned this game today.  there has been no backlash.

Wait, so the forums are not part of the real world, nor the people posting on them?!?

Perhaps it will only be real to you if your boss ran screaming past you at work about how his realm pride is dead?

Lets try harder to minimalize people with differing opinions shall we.

and lets try hard to pretend that forum posters represent anything but a minor fraction of actual purchasers.

There Is Always Hope!

  Ppiper

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/08/13
Posts: 662

1/30/14 7:06:52 PM#80
yes. I understand the frustration with what went down, however, I still went with the Retail Imperial CE. I bought the SWTOR CE, as well. Shit, I even bought the Hellgaye London CE. No regrets. 
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