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News & Features Discussion  » [Editorial] Elder Scrolls Online: Thoughts on the Collector's Edition Controversy

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  MMOGamer71

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/12/07
Posts: 1462

1/30/14 2:25:56 PM#101
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by Grakulen
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by JJ82
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris

"Comparatively $20 for an entire race could be considered fair market value if not an outright steal."

It shouldn't even occur.

That's like paying extra to be a Pandarian in WoW (a multi-faction race).

Imperials have been in Elder Scrolls since Morrowind, and to see they become available for extra cash now? That's the definition of a money grab, and feels every bit like it (as things you always had now must be bought -- in the same franchise -- IS pickpocketing).

It cost me $10 to be a Pandaren in WoW.

Pandarens came with an expansion pack, it was not a pre-order special only race.

This is F2P style nickel and diming for a sub based game. Create a game with set limitations, offering away around them for more money.

It was still additional content, and it cost me extra $$.  Had I purchased it when it first released, it would have cost me $40.

The complaint here isn't that there is extra content that costs extra money.  The complaint here is that there is extra content that costs extra money that's available at launch.

That isn't my complaint. My complaint is that Firor made a point of saying that the subscription was the right fit for ESO so their wouldn't be pay-gates and "nickel and dime" microtransactions, that everyone would have the same core game experience for the sub. The niggle comes with the definition of "core" experience. It's the same smoke and mirrors type of marketing that Turbine uses. It still doesn't change the fact that he strongly inferred with that statment there would be none of this and yet here it is.

$20 is not getting nickel and dimed.  That's getting twentied.

This type of thing, cosmetic items, mounts, etc. in cash shops have existed in subscription games for a very long time.  Imperials are a race, sure, but there's no additional content tied to them.  There are no areas that are unlocked by being an Imperial and no starter zone content that comes with them.  It is literally a different look for a player's avatar.  It's not all that different from the options currently available in other subscription cash shops.

Though, there will be microtransactions at some point.  They have built in ways to give some players things and not give all the players things based on how much money they spend.  They are certainly not wanting to go with some sort of F2P Microtransaction system to fund the game, but they certainly have the framework in place to make it happen.  I'm not concerned about any of this, but if I was, that's what I'd be concerned about.

+1

So because it's a $20 charge it's okay? That must make the $200 preorder pack for Neverwinter 10x as okay, right? You're both ignoring the part where he said that whole mtx/dlc thing wasn't going to be a part of this game because they were choosing the subscription model instead. He made the point of differentiating from cash shops and mtx, not me. You keep talking about WoW and pandas and sparkle ponies, but this isn't WoW. We're talking about how he said and alluded to one thing and then how he did something different. I'm saying that is wrong and that we should not give developers or publishers a pass to do this. We should expect them to speak clearly and transparently. What they've gotten away with in the past doesn't mean it should continue.

I'm also pointing out a double-standard here on mmorpg.com how F2P games that go into soft release are heavily grilled and questioned early about their monetization methods and costs while games requiring a sub (a higher minimum investment) are given excuse articles as to why their charges are okay.

This has nothing to do with the quality of the game, although I think it's a poor practice to accept money while keeping a legal NDA up, much worse than F2P games using the beta label and taking money. At least with those games you can see what you get before you buy. How convenient is it that they're taking money for the game, but "oops" the game can't be reviewed because of the NDA. Oh well, c'est la vie?

+2

Edit: And the yellow is why we keep seeing these "money grabs."

The "issue" with MMO development is that there are TOO MANY suits and not enough gamers making games.

  Lugors

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/06/12
Posts: 152

1/30/14 2:28:32 PM#102
Like many of the posters, and the OP for the article, I don't understand the angst over having a race locked to the CE.  How is it different than having a different skin for a weapon, or hat, or any other cosmetic feature?  I would look at it in game and think, you spent 50 dollars more for the same game and experience. 
  knapu

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/03/09
Posts: 129

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
So is a lot.
-Albert Einstein

1/30/14 2:30:42 PM#103

dont know why everyone so excited as a pc gamer for a console mmo with 4 skills in the hotbar, if i would had ps4 or X1 i would buy it for sure but i dont like games that are stripped of alot of things just so they can be playable on console which hurts the pc gamers .

Awsome graphics and thats it waiting for  the repopulation and EQN  and Oculus rift !!!!  thats game changer and not some same old with new graphics and stripped on top of it :/ ... 

Thats just my opinion so dont hate the player  hate the game :P.

I am the punishment of God...
If you had not committed great sins,
God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you
— Genghis Khan

  JJ82

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/02/13
Posts: 898

1/30/14 2:31:06 PM#104
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by JJ82

By your logic, the instances that came with the expansion pack, the story and every single other thing should also be offered up for pre-orders only.

I know, want a specific dungeon? Pay extra. Want the next tier? Pay extra again. Want to get 5 more levels? Pay extra yet again!

F2P nickel and diming meets subscription.

No, my logic was simply stating that people are upset about something that's actually pretty common, based on when it's happening, not what's happening.  A cosmetic item, that doesn't change game play is being offered for additional money, and because it's happening at launch instead of later people want to call it a controversy.  Never mind that cosmetic items have existed in subscription game cash shops for a very, very long time.  This isn't a controversy at all.  This is a bunch of people who want to be upset about something.

Not in games where we were told that the game HAS TO have race and faction locks in an MMO in order to defend DaoC 2 with the TES name on it.

"People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  Arglebargle

Elite Member

Joined: 6/13/07
Posts: 965

1/30/14 2:32:39 PM#105

'Much ado about not much.'

 

Two days ago you couldn't play Imperials at all.   Now you can, but just for a bit more money.  It's not like they promised it, and then put it behind a paywall.  There are other benefits in the package as well, for people who support the game.  Games do need to make profits to continue in existence, although that's not always even enough.

 

The 'Any race, any faction' part is a major plus.  Their antiquated design, which didn't fit well with ES, is getting fixed.   They ran in to a load of complaints about their old design, and came up with a clever, and slightly evil, way to implement it.  Pre-orders!  

 

This is pretty much the design I told them to use (sans pre-order), as it requires no change to the mechanics, and allows folks to play the game as they want.   There's a chance they'll get my money now, where before, there was none.  Pretty sure they've done a cost benefit analysis on this.

If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  CazNeerg

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

1/30/14 2:32:55 PM#106
Originally posted by killion81

I'll just repeat from earlier in the thread... 

These large companies set industry wide precedents on what type of behavior is ok.  This will affect the people that choose not to buy TESO, if TESO is considered a success within the industry.  It's these sort of decisions that end up causing significant harm to a hobby I enjoy and it the end have serious potential to degrade my future enjoyment.  A lot of people already acknowledge the garbage cash grab releases that are becoming prevalent due to past "successes".  

What that means is that when a new "monetization" strategy is seen as being "successful", future releases may decide to implement similar strategies and often times push it even further.  If that was a game that I might enjoy, minimally my enjoyment will be decreased by the bad taste, but more likely I will pass on the game because I actually hold to my principals.  Now I have lost all potential enjoyment from that game.  Unfortunate, I know.

You can't impact whether or not it is successful.  All you can impact is whether or not you play.  If it is successful (as it almost certainly will be) your stand on principle will have accomplished nothing, and therefore been pointless, beyond whatever inherent satisfaction you gain from standing on principle.  Obviously, if you expect the level of satisfaction from standing on principle to be greater than the level of satisfaction you would get from playing the game, then the optimal choice for you is to stand on principle even if it accomplishes nothing.

But if you think you would get more satisfaction from playing than from taking a stand, and take the stand anyway, you will not be acting in a very rational fashion.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

  pmcubed

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/17/05
Posts: 285

1/30/14 2:33:53 PM#107
Originally posted by catlana
Originally posted by Pigozz

What I dont get are the people defending this decision - I mean it's like you want to give away your money - are you really that dumb??

It's simple - I, as a costumer want the best service for the least amount of cash and thus this moves is just plain stupid - we already "tolerate" the monthly fees WITH the box price which is utter artificial BS that was somehow magicaly accepted

People are so dumb these days Im seriously thinking about founding an MMO company and milking them hardcore - they seem to enjoy it :-S

You do not seem to get it. I spend far more money than $20 on things I enjoy. Even something as simple as concert tickets for $250 each can be a lot of fun. What is the relative value you get out of the entertainment? How does that entertainment help you? If $20 is too much for you, go hang out with your buddies or grind away in a f2p. Or better yet, work on improving your life. Your life is what you make of it.  

 

Not the best analogy, because concert seating is very limited, thus, they can charge whatever they want if demand is high enough.  However, if you want to stick to this analogy, it's like the venue saying.. you know what? $250 will cover songs X and Y, but if they want to hear Z, better make it $300.  If the artist is popular enough, people will pay.  That's not the issue.  Its the precedent they are setting that will pave the way for future Box + Sub + content pay walls.  

Plus, to me it kind of breaks the ES immersion when such an iconic race as the imperials is not by default a playable race.  Zeni could have easily thrown in some cosmetic item to the CE bundle and not alienated so many people.

  Volgore

Tipster

Joined: 6/15/08
Posts: 1708

Posts deleted: 12589457

1/30/14 2:36:15 PM#108

This is the second time that after people raised their concerns (and more) about a negative point regarding ESO, mmorpg.com hits back with a column/feature telling us that "it's not so bad, perhaps you look at it the wrong way".

Propaganda much?

 

 

Back from the banned...again.

  Badaboom

Elite Member

Joined: 10/04/10
Posts: 2277

1/30/14 2:37:35 PM#109
I wonder how people would react if WoW was released and no one could play the Tauren unless they bought a CE? 
  funyahns

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/02/12
Posts: 304

1/30/14 2:39:05 PM#110
 Its amusing how disagreeing with the pay gate method on a subbed game makes you either. Poor, cheap, dumb, hater, troll. or any other term for whiner.  The best I have heard from most of you is because I think this is a shady practice is I am entitled and want stuff for free. Or how I am too poor to afford my hobby.  How exactly is that constructive to the argument over what is fair game in a game that was supposed to not have paid unlocks of items.   Mostly you are just twisting words around like "Oh he said in mid game not pre-purchase!"  If you love the game that is great, but pretending that this sort of lying is cool and sticking your head into the sand is silly.
  Stuka1000

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/20/03
Posts: 772

1/30/14 2:39:53 PM#111
Originally posted by CazNeerg
Originally posted by killion81

So basically, be a good little consumer and buy what you're told to buy.  Don't question things like honesty or integrity, those are "big issues", so they don't matter.  You're only going to harm your personal potential to be entertained if you focus on things you don't agree with, so just overlook them.  Right... 

This actually IS a big deal.  These large companies set industry wide precedents on what type of behavior is ok.  This will affect the people that choose not to buy TESO, if TESO is considered a success within the industry.  It's these sort of decisions that end up causing significant harm to a hobby I enjoy and it the end have serious potential to degrade my future enjoyment.  A lot of people already acknowledge the garbage cash grab releases that are becoming prevalent due to past "successes".

Buy what you're told to buy?  Who said that?  I said buy what you expect you will enjoy.  

You can swim against the tide all you want, just don't be surprised when you don't get anywhere.  As for "significant harm," we are back to first world problems and lack of perspective.  If you and your property have suffered no physical injury, you have not been significantly harmed.

What complete BS.  By your reckoning no fraudsters would ever be behind bars because they didn't cause anyone or their property any physical injury.  I will actually buy the game because I like what I saw in the beta but I know when I am being treated like a mushroom.  I will not therefor buy the CE because I will not help propagate this type of immoral marketing. 

  Joejc7135

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/06/13
Posts: 160

1/30/14 2:40:26 PM#112
Originally posted by Lugors
Like many of the posters, and the OP for the article, I don't understand the angst over having a race locked to the CE.  How is it different than having a different skin for a weapon, or hat, or any other cosmetic feature?  I would look at it in game and think, you spent 50 dollars more for the same game and experience. 

People have an issue with it for a couple reasons. Firstly it's not just cosmetic, the race has it's own unique skill line.(You can argue it's no big deal or you can argue it is..fact is nobody knows anything about it other then it's more then cosmetic.) In addition to that we where assured that they would not gate content, that was their justification for a sub. Other then that they also said they didn't want to allow races to just join any alliance...what they meant was they don't want that unless you pre-order the deluxe edition and get the "Explorers pack"....For me personally it's not about the money...I just prefer not to reward deceptive marketing tactics and straight up dishonesty. 

  Grakulen

Staff

Joined: 3/07/12
Posts: 381

1/30/14 2:40:50 PM#113
Originally posted by Torvaldr
 

So because it's a $20 charge it's okay? That must make the $200 preorder pack for Neverwinter 10x as okay, right? You're both ignoring the part where he said that whole mtx/dlc thing wasn't going to be a part of this game because they were choosing the subscription model instead. He made the point of differentiating from cash shops and mtx, not me. You keep talking about WoW and pandas and sparkle ponies, but this isn't WoW. We're talking about how he said and alluded to one thing and then how he did something different. I'm saying that is wrong and that we should not give developers or publishers a pass to do this. We should expect them to speak clearly and transparently. What they've gotten away with in the past doesn't mean it should continue.

I'm also pointing out a double-standard here on mmorpg.com how F2P games that go into soft release are heavily grilled and questioned early about their monetization methods and costs while games requiring a sub (a higher minimum investment) are given excuse articles as to why their charges are okay.

This has nothing to do with the quality of the game, although I think it's a poor practice to accept money while keeping a legal NDA up, much worse than F2P games using the beta label and taking money. At least with those games you can see what you get before you buy. How convenient is it that they're taking money for the game, but "oops" the game can't be reviewed because of the NDA. Oh well, c'est la vie?

I think there are a multitude of disagreements going on that are getting mixed up. I'll try and go through your post point by point so we can get on the same page.

I think the price is irrelevant. If they wanted to charge $200 for it I'd say they are crazy but they have the right to do so. I wouldn't buy it. I thought Neverwinter charging $200 for a digital only CE was mind boggling but they did it and people bought it.

He said they would have fun things in the shop. This by a lot of definitions is a fun thing not essential to the core game play. People can disagree on that. I think if they did offer things like a unique dungeon or adventure pack or pick what ever arbitrary name you want and they stuck that in a cash shop then yeah, that's pretty lame and obviously going back on what he said. 

I mentioned WoW in the article because they charge for pets and mounts in a shop and have for year. Those are fun things they micro transact. I never mentioned Pandarian's in the article because I don't think it is a fair comparison. I only responded to someone else's claims that it was.

You are correct. Consumer's should expect honesty from their service providers. If you are pissed at ESO because you think Matt lied to you then I can't tell you not to be pissed about that. 

The micro transaction based games get grilled when they go into open "beta" and charge you money for an unfinished product. Before yesterday ZSO wasn't taking money from people. Those games also weren't protected by an NDA. ESO is. I've been honest with people and told them I was less than impressed about ESO at shows. I've slowly come around. I'll tell you more soon. I'll call a spade a spade and tell you if the game is a POS as soon as I can. I also cautioned people not to run out and buy the game if if they are unsure about it. I don't want you to spend your money on anything you don't want to spend it on. I have no vested interest in the games success other than hopefully getting some enjoyment out of it.

I also talked about the fact the NDA still being up in my mind was cause for concern as a consumer. If I want to buy something and you won't let people talk about it yet then their seems to be a disconnect.  But the NDA will be down in plenty of time for people to prepurchase the game based upon and informed decision if that is what they choose to do.

 

  Randallt3mp

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 174

1/30/14 2:40:52 PM#114
Originally posted by Grakulen
Originally posted by Calven
Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris

"Comparatively $20 for an entire race could be considered fair market value if not an outright steal."

 

It shouldn't even occur.

 

That's like paying extra to be a Pandarian in WoW (a multi-faction race).

 

Imperials have been in Elder Scrolls since Morrowind, and to see they become available for extra cash now? That's the definition of a money grab, and feels every bit like it (as things you always had now must be bought -- in the same franchise -- IS pickpocketing).

Do you want an imperial?  If you aren't willing to spend for it, I don't think you really want it that bad. 

 

That's stupid. It's like saying "Do you have cancer? If you want to be free of it then you must pay. If you aren't willing to spend for it, I don't think you really want to be free of it"

 

Just for the record. We are talking about video games. Not cancer.

 

PS. Listen to LizardBones. He gets it.

 
 

its called an analogy for gods sake.  we arent saying video games are more important than the cure for cancer or ending "apartheid."  However, video games are fairly impornant to many people that play them on a regular basis so naturally they are going to speak out about things that upset them in a major aspect of their time.

 

MMOs Played: FFXI,Age of Conan, Aion, Rift, SWTOR, TERA, TSW, GW2

Playing:None

Waiting For: Wildstar, The Repopulation, Archeage, TESO, Warhammer 40K:EC, EQN

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 9953

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

1/30/14 2:41:29 PM#115
Originally posted by Badaboom
I wonder how people would react if WoW was released and no one could play the Tauren unless they bought a CE? 

 

If it was actually the Tauren, with a starting area, quests and home city, people would probably react pretty badly.

 

If it was just a skin over an avatar that could play for either faction with no starting area, quests or home city, then who knows?  People seem to get upset over anything.  The game would have still sold a bajillion copies.

 

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Nzscorpion80

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/29/14
Posts: 39

1/30/14 2:41:44 PM#116

They will unlock all factions in time for everyone I bet on it. I do prefer the faction lock though with the imperials being the floater race as cyrodil is being fought over. People go on about how in elder scrolls games there was no faction lock blah blah, how many times did you ever see a orc working as a guard in a Nord city etc, yea there are roamers in each races area but a minority.

 

Hopefully they just trying to limit the crossover with the CE pack so like only 10% of characters on a certain alliance are foreign.

Biggest issue for me is the PvP nstances in cyrodil really.

  cura

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/24/04
Posts: 850

1/30/14 2:42:10 PM#117
As usuall i found it worthless to read games sites reflections. Always the same. Oh well, im here for forums.
  CazNeerg

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

1/30/14 2:45:05 PM#118
Originally posted by eric1000

What complete BS.  By your reckoning no fraudsters would ever be behind bars because they didn't cause anyone or their property any physical injury.  I will actually buy the game because I like what I saw in the beta but I know when I am being treated like a mushroom.  I will not therefor buy the CE because I will not help propagate this type of immoral marketing. 

It's fine if you don't think the Imperial Edition provides enough value to justify the cost, that is a fair position to take.  Saying you don't like it is reasonable, everybody has different opinions.  But calling it immoral is just stupid, and will hurt your credibility with any person who is looking at the situation rationally rather than emotionally.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

  mindmeld

Novice Member

Joined: 6/07/05
Posts: 222

Die trying

1/30/14 2:51:33 PM#119

Agree with article.

Really not something to fuzz about. Dont pay for ce and check out upgrade option later if a race is still locked..

 

zeronizer Xfire Miniprofile
  killion81

Elite Member

Joined: 8/31/06
Posts: 866

1/30/14 2:53:35 PM#120
Originally posted by CazNeerg
Originally posted by eric1000

What complete BS.  By your reckoning no fraudsters would ever be behind bars because they didn't cause anyone or their property any physical injury.  I will actually buy the game because I like what I saw in the beta but I know when I am being treated like a mushroom.  I will not therefor buy the CE because I will not help propagate this type of immoral marketing. 

It's fine if you don't think the Imperial Edition provides enough value to justify the cost, that is a fair position to take.  Saying you don't like it is reasonable, everybody has different opinions.  But calling it immoral is just stupid, and will hurt your credibility with any person who is looking at the situation rationally rather than emotionally.

 

It's nothing by itself in a vacuum.  It becomes shady and a flat out lie when you say something like,

 

“And it’s important to state that our decision to go with subscriptions is not a referendum on online game revenue models. F2P, B2P, etc. are valid, proven business models – but subscription is the one that fits ESO the best, given our commitment to freedom of gameplay, quality and long-term content delivery. Plus, players will appreciate not having to worry about being “monetized” in the middle of playing the game, which is definitely a problem that is cropping up more and more in online gaming these days. The fact that the word “monetized” exists points to the heart of the issue for us: We don’t want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for – with our system, they get it all.” - Matt Firor

 

and then your actions are completely opposite to what you have said.  If you want to say it's not a lie and just twisting words, go that route, but it's still shady and misleading.  Personally, I hold people to what they say and the part that particularly stands out as a lie is "We don't want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for -- with our system, they get it all."

 

Do you "get it all" if you don't preorder, but rather purchase the game after release?  Do you "get it all" if you choose not to purchase the CE?

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