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News & Features Discussion  » [Editorial] Elder Scrolls Online: Thoughts on the Collector's Edition Controversy

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297 posts found
  Stuka1000

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/20/03
Posts: 809

1/30/14 2:09:24 PM#41
Originally posted by Dewguy79
Originally posted by eric1000
Originally posted by rochrist
I actually think an awful lot of people would be pretty ecstatic with a modern DAoC remake. Just sayin

You're right, but not if I could say play a troll as Albion.  What made realm pride was in no small part due to the differences, there will be no realm pride in ESO now that any race can join any alliance.  Dumbest decision ever.

 

Dumbest decision to you.  Their preorder sales tell a different story.  But hey your entitled to your opinion. 

 

So you have inside information concerning pre-order numbers that nobody else other than zenimax have?  Out with it then.  Nowhere in the NDA does it say that you are not allowed to talk about pre-order numbers.

  User Deleted
1/30/14 2:09:32 PM#42
It's an arm twisting of sorts, a collectors edition can be sold without altering the game. Many of us would buy a CE for a tiny statue, a metal container, a poster, or any number of out of game items that have no bearing on the game. So logically speaking - Zen is being greedy. I know how I play and think, the ramifications of greed are intangible and won't show up on any spreadsheet we ever see.
  CazNeerg

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

1/30/14 2:10:18 PM#43
Originally posted by Torvaldr

I enjoy posing critical questions and sifting new games. I think it's good for developers and the games if they can stand that test. It doesn't have to be negative, but critical thinking and questioning is nearly always good.

The problem, for me, is a question of integrity. Firor and Zeni have been misleading at best about how they're charging for the game. Like I said before, Neverwinter got raked over the coals for a $200 pre-order package but ESO gets a string of excuse articles. Why isn't this developer and Firor in particular being taken to task for making statements that don't match up? He said the sub was because pay-gates and "nickel and dime" microtransactions didn't fit the ESO premium experience. Well that's not true, but the author's answer is that it's okay to dismiss integrity because other people do it.

If we continually get game and service experiences that we find lacking, it's because we don't have any accountability. I'm sure the game is fun and people will like it. That doesn't mean we should overlook mistakes being made.

I can understand disliking the hypocrisy of someone criticizing Neverwinter's pre-order, and not ESO's.  I have never criticized any game's pre-order package on the grounds that it gave too much.

As for the "integrity" of a game company, I'm honestly not understanding why you care.  If they made a fun game, [mod edit]  It's about having fun, not about rewarding or punishing the personal failings of the developer.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 6022

1/30/14 2:16:42 PM#44
Originally posted by CazNeerg
Originally posted by Torvaldr

I enjoy posing critical questions and sifting new games. I think it's good for developers and the games if they can stand that test. It doesn't have to be negative, but critical thinking and questioning is nearly always good.

The problem, for me, is a question of integrity. Firor and Zeni have been misleading at best about how they're charging for the game. Like I said before, Neverwinter got raked over the coals for a $200 pre-order package but ESO gets a string of excuse articles. Why isn't this developer and Firor in particular being taken to task for making statements that don't match up? He said the sub was because pay-gates and "nickel and dime" microtransactions didn't fit the ESO premium experience. Well that's not true, but the author's answer is that it's okay to dismiss integrity because other people do it.

If we continually get game and service experiences that we find lacking, it's because we don't have any accountability. I'm sure the game is fun and people will like it. That doesn't mean we should overlook mistakes being made.

I can understand disliking the hypocrisy of someone criticizing Neverwinter's pre-order, and not ESO's.  I have never criticized any game's pre-order package on the grounds that it gave too much.

As for the "integrity" of a game company, I'm honestly not understanding why you care.  If they made a fun game, they could have spent the 90s hanging out with Michael Jackson and Roman Polanski at Neverland with a boy scout troop and truckloads of blow, and I would still play the game.  It's about having fun, not about rewarding or punishing the personal failings of the developer.

Because integrity matters to some people. Those lifestyle examples you gave don't pertain to the game and how it was marketed so I don't care about them. I don't care about Brad McQuaid's history and mistakes. I care about how he's handling his company and new game now.  I care about how Matt Firor presented this game. Would you give a pass if they sold the CE and on day one decided to give all those CE perks to every customer?

It's not about the moral lifestyle of the developer. It's about things they say, pertaining to the product, and how they're selling it. There is a reason bait and switch it illegal. Misrepresenting what you're selling is considered poor business ethics. That doesn't make the game not fun. It does however raise a question about how honest they're being in their entire presentation.

Curse you AquaScum!

  Kevyne-Shandris

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/08
Posts: 1980

You can't † BURY † ¤¤ Holy Paladins ¤¤ As we will always __.- ASCEND -.__

1/30/14 2:18:17 PM#45

"Comparatively $20 for an entire race could be considered fair market value if not an outright steal."

 

It shouldn't even occur.

 

That's like paying extra to be a Pandarian in WoW (a multi-faction race).

 

Imperials have been in Elder Scrolls since Morrowind, and to see they become available for extra cash now? That's the definition of a money grab, and feels every bit like it (as things you always had now must be bought -- in the same franchise -- IS pickpocketing).

  killion81

Elite Member

Joined: 8/31/06
Posts: 911

1/30/14 2:21:14 PM#46
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by CazNeerg
Originally posted by Torvaldr

I enjoy posing critical questions and sifting new games. I think it's good for developers and the games if they can stand that test. It doesn't have to be negative, but critical thinking and questioning is nearly always good.

The problem, for me, is a question of integrity. Firor and Zeni have been misleading at best about how they're charging for the game. Like I said before, Neverwinter got raked over the coals for a $200 pre-order package but ESO gets a string of excuse articles. Why isn't this developer and Firor in particular being taken to task for making statements that don't match up? He said the sub was because pay-gates and "nickel and dime" microtransactions didn't fit the ESO premium experience. Well that's not true, but the author's answer is that it's okay to dismiss integrity because other people do it.

If we continually get game and service experiences that we find lacking, it's because we don't have any accountability. I'm sure the game is fun and people will like it. That doesn't mean we should overlook mistakes being made.

I can understand disliking the hypocrisy of someone criticizing Neverwinter's pre-order, and not ESO's.  I have never criticized any game's pre-order package on the grounds that it gave too much.

As for the "integrity" of a game company, I'm honestly not understanding why you care.  If they made a fun game, they could have spent the 90s hanging out with Michael Jackson and Roman Polanski at Neverland with a boy scout troop and truckloads of blow, and I would still play the game.  It's about having fun, not about rewarding or punishing the personal failings of the developer.

Because integrity matters to some people. Those lifestyle examples you gave don't pertain to the game and how it was marketed so I don't care about them. I don't care about Brad McQuaid's history and mistakes. I care about how he's handling his company and new game now.  I care about how Matt Firor presented this game. Would you give a pass if they sold the CE and on day one decided to give all those CE perks to every customer?

It's not about the moral lifestyle of the developer. It's about things they say, pertaining to the product, and how they're selling it. There is a reason bait and switch it illegal. Misrepresenting what you're selling is considered poor business ethics. That doesn't make the game not fun. It does however raise a question about how honest they're being in their entire presentation.

 

Completely agree.  What's amazing is that it looks like honesty and integrity have been absent in some circles long enough that people don't even recognize it to know when it's been breached.  If that isn't an appalling indictment of society as a whole, I'm not sure what is.

 

I would also like to point out that I'm very much in agreement with several posters whom I don't typically agree with on this issue.  Supporting integrity and honesty very much transcends typical forum bickering.  This actually IS a big deal.  These large companies set industry wide precedents on what type of behavior is ok.  This will affect the people that choose not to buy TESO, if TESO is considered a success within the industry, by defining what is considered acceptable business practices in the MMORPG marketplace.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10942

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

1/30/14 2:22:20 PM#47
Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris

"Comparatively $20 for an entire race could be considered fair market value if not an outright steal."

 

It shouldn't even occur.

 

That's like paying extra to be a Pandarian in WoW (a multi-faction race).

 

Imperials have been in Elder Scrolls since Morrowind, and to see they become available for extra cash now? That's the definition of a money grab, and feels every bit like it (as things you always had now must be bought -- in the same franchise -- IS pickpocketing).

 

It cost me $10 to be a Pandaren in WoW.

 

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  neum

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/15/07
Posts: 112

1/30/14 2:23:58 PM#48
I am totally ok with spending a few extra bucks to play a race.  I am getting two imperial editions. If someone does not have to money to enjoy a hobby get a new hobby.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP3rKRh0h5k

  Ramonski7

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/21/03
Posts: 2701

"A wise man has something to say, but a fool just has to say something."

1/30/14 2:24:45 PM#49

I don't see the controversy. Pay $5 and live out your rpg fantasy. Is $5 too much for those who really want to play ESO anyway? I've seen people pay more for games that don't exist yet. So for those saying that this takes away from faction pride think again. Once you pick a faction, all characters (regardless of race) are locked into that faction. So how is that exactly taking away from faction pride? Faction pride is based on fighting for a cause not a race.

 

That being said how can you actually think that at this day and age that racial stat bonuses will be that overpowered? Do you seriously believed that? I haven't seen that level of unbalanced game play since....a single player rpg. So what if some people want to pay $100 for exclusivity. I see others talking about how cheap this genre is based on other entertainment venues, yet here are the pro-F2Players harping on yet another perceived sub based evil. Not taking into account just how long companies have been offering CE packages. But god forbid that they include something that could be useful beyond the first 10 levels....man this crowd....


"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  User Deleted
1/30/14 2:25:35 PM#50
Originally posted by CazNeerg
Originally posted by Torvaldr

I enjoy posing critical questions and sifting new games. I think it's good for developers and the games if they can stand that test. It doesn't have to be negative, but critical thinking and questioning is nearly always good.

The problem, for me, is a question of integrity. Firor and Zeni have been misleading at best about how they're charging for the game. Like I said before, Neverwinter got raked over the coals for a $200 pre-order package but ESO gets a string of excuse articles. Why isn't this developer and Firor in particular being taken to task for making statements that don't match up? He said the sub was because pay-gates and "nickel and dime" microtransactions didn't fit the ESO premium experience. Well that's not true, but the author's answer is that it's okay to dismiss integrity because other people do it.

If we continually get game and service experiences that we find lacking, it's because we don't have any accountability. I'm sure the game is fun and people will like it. That doesn't mean we should overlook mistakes being made.

I can understand disliking the hypocrisy of someone criticizing Neverwinter's pre-order, and not ESO's.  I have never criticized any game's pre-order package on the grounds that it gave too much.

As for the "integrity" of a game company, I'm honestly not understanding why you care.  If they made a fun game, they could have spent the 90s hanging out with Michael Jackson and Roman Polanski at Neverland with a boy scout troop and truckloads of blow, and I would still play the game.  It's about having fun, not about rewarding or punishing the personal failings of the developer.

and then Robocop showed up and took them out and saved the boy scouts, not the new PG-13 Robocop.  But 80's Robocop the one that blows punks away by shooting them like 30 times each..... sorry couldn't resist.

 

 

Also this CE thing is blown out of proportion, probably because nothing big is launching right now.

  JJ82

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/02/13
Posts: 1057

1/30/14 2:28:04 PM#51
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris

"Comparatively $20 for an entire race could be considered fair market value if not an outright steal."

 

It shouldn't even occur.

 

That's like paying extra to be a Pandarian in WoW (a multi-faction race).

 

Imperials have been in Elder Scrolls since Morrowind, and to see they become available for extra cash now? That's the definition of a money grab, and feels every bit like it (as things you always had now must be bought -- in the same franchise -- IS pickpocketing).

It cost me $10 to be a Pandaren in WoW.

Pandarens came with an expansion pack, it was not a pre-order special only race.

This is F2P style nickel and diming for a sub based game. Create a game with set limitations, offering away around them for more money.

"People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  WikileaksEU

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/13
Posts: 104

1/30/14 2:28:18 PM#52
If they start selling the race or to be able to be any race in any alliance i want my money back for the CE. It should be CE only. Nothing else. I want to feel special for buying the CE. Zenimax understands this.
  CazNeerg

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

1/30/14 2:29:41 PM#53
Originally posted by Torvaldr

Because integrity matters to some people. Those lifestyle examples you gave don't pertain to the game and how it was marketed so I don't care about them. I don't care about Brad McQuaid's history and mistakes. I care about how he's handling his company and new game now.  I care about how Matt Firor presented this game. Would you give a pass if they sold the CE and on day one decided to give all those CE perks to every customer?

It's not about the moral lifestyle of the developer. It's about things they say, pertaining to the product, and how they're selling it. There is a reason bait and switch it illegal. Misrepresenting what you're selling is considered poor business ethics. That doesn't make the game not fun. It does however raise a question about how honest they're being in their entire presentation.

Honestly? I would think, intellectually, that it was a move in poor taste, but I wouldn't *care* to the extent that it impacted how much I was enjoying my day or the experience of playing the game.  It's simply not worth having an emotional reaction to.  As long as I have fun, I keep paying.  When I stop having fun, I stop paying.  It's a very simple approach, and people in general would probably be happier if they all adopted it.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10942

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

1/30/14 2:30:56 PM#54
Originally posted by JJ82
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris

"Comparatively $20 for an entire race could be considered fair market value if not an outright steal."

 

It shouldn't even occur.

 

That's like paying extra to be a Pandarian in WoW (a multi-faction race).

 

Imperials have been in Elder Scrolls since Morrowind, and to see they become available for extra cash now? That's the definition of a money grab, and feels every bit like it (as things you always had now must be bought -- in the same franchise -- IS pickpocketing).

It cost me $10 to be a Pandaren in WoW.

Pandarens came with an expansion pack, it was not a pre-order special only race.

This is F2P style nickel and diming for a sub based game. Create a game with set limitations, offering away around them for more money.

 

It was still additional content, and it cost me extra $$.  Had I purchased it when it first released, it would have cost me $40.

 

The complaint here isn't that there is extra content that costs extra money.  The complaint here is that there is extra content that costs extra money that's available at launch.

 

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  killion81

Elite Member

Joined: 8/31/06
Posts: 911

1/30/14 2:31:54 PM#55
Originally posted by CazNeerg
Originally posted by Torvaldr

Because integrity matters to some people. Those lifestyle examples you gave don't pertain to the game and how it was marketed so I don't care about them. I don't care about Brad McQuaid's history and mistakes. I care about how he's handling his company and new game now.  I care about how Matt Firor presented this game. Would you give a pass if they sold the CE and on day one decided to give all those CE perks to every customer?

It's not about the moral lifestyle of the developer. It's about things they say, pertaining to the product, and how they're selling it. There is a reason bait and switch it illegal. Misrepresenting what you're selling is considered poor business ethics. That doesn't make the game not fun. It does however raise a question about how honest they're being in their entire presentation.

Honestly? I would think, intellectually, that it was a move in poor taste, but I wouldn't *care* to the extent that it impacted how much I was enjoying my day or the experience of playing the game.  It's simply not worth having an emotional reaction to.  As long as I have fun, I keep paying.  When I stop having fun, I stop paying.  It's a very simple approach, and people in general would probably be happier if they all adopted it.

 

It sounds like you're saying that people should stand for nothing.  The only thing they should care about is their short term entertainment.  Correct me if I'm not understanding this correctly.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 6022

1/30/14 2:32:00 PM#56
Originally posted by WikileaksEU
If they start selling the race or to be able to be any race in any alliance i want my money back for the CE. It should be CE only. Nothing else. I want to feel special for buying the CE. Zenimax understands this.

That isn't how F2P games work. They'll sell it eventually. You'll still have your book and action figure though. They won't mint more of those.

Curse you AquaScum!

  SlyLoK

Elite Member

Joined: 7/04/08
Posts: 1064

1/30/14 2:33:14 PM#57
Originally posted by onlinenow25
Originally posted by SlyLoK
Originally posted by JJ82

" If anything they have provided a laurel leaf to the Elder Scrolls players that were upset about faction locks. Does this seem counter intuitive to the stance they took on faction locks originally? A little"

No. What it did was prove that everything they said about why they used the base game design was a complete and total lie.

Most TES fans that got upset about the game was WHY ISNT IT OPEN WORLD like TES games? We were told they HAD TO make it this way for realm pride and because MMOs require sacrifices.

It was all BS, like most people said and they PROVED it. Its not a laurel, its a carrot on a stick to lead us away from the real issue, a poor game design that was just shown to be worthless made by people with no intention of making a TES game, just a DaoC remake.

No. It just means they heard what some people said and their dislike of the faction lock. And with a simple preorder they can now do what they wanted. The faction lock was originally there to keep one faction from being vastly more populated than the others.

The only controversy is coming from the people that have always bashed on TESO no matter what.. Now that they offer the option its " OMGZ what they said before was a LIE!111!!1! ".

 

But it was a lie.

 

If they were doing a service to everyone they wouldn't be locking content behind a pay gate or pre-order they would made all races playable by everyone.  I say content because each race is suppose to have their own skill line.  

 

If it turns out that all races don't have their own skill line and its simply cosmetic its no big deal.  Otherwise its paying for extra content.

Races do not have their own skill line. They have passives but no skill line. The only skill lines comes from the guilds , weapons and base class.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 6022

1/30/14 2:36:35 PM#58
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by JJ82
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris

"Comparatively $20 for an entire race could be considered fair market value if not an outright steal."

It shouldn't even occur.

That's like paying extra to be a Pandarian in WoW (a multi-faction race).

Imperials have been in Elder Scrolls since Morrowind, and to see they become available for extra cash now? That's the definition of a money grab, and feels every bit like it (as things you always had now must be bought -- in the same franchise -- IS pickpocketing).

It cost me $10 to be a Pandaren in WoW.

Pandarens came with an expansion pack, it was not a pre-order special only race.

This is F2P style nickel and diming for a sub based game. Create a game with set limitations, offering away around them for more money.

It was still additional content, and it cost me extra $$.  Had I purchased it when it first released, it would have cost me $40.

The complaint here isn't that there is extra content that costs extra money.  The complaint here is that there is extra content that costs extra money that's available at launch.

That isn't my complaint. My complaint is that Firor made a point of saying that the subscription was the right fit for ESO so their wouldn't be pay-gates and "nickel and dime" microtransactions, that everyone would have the same core game experience for the sub. The niggle comes with the definition of "core" experience. It's the same smoke and mirrors type of marketing that Turbine uses. It still doesn't change the fact that he strongly inferred with that statment there would be none of this and yet here it is.

 

Curse you AquaScum!

  Shaigh

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/07/13
Posts: 336

1/30/14 2:37:21 PM#59

Its hard to trust zenimax.

 

They are afraid to call it an MMO, they can't make up their mind about how they want their factions, they are afraid of calling their adventure zones raiding, and at one point they were willing to release the game without adventure zones. Now they want to charge extra for a race like they were a f2p game.

 

If you call for sanity in the raging debate then the sane thing would be to tell everyone to wait with their preorders until NDA is dropped so people can give their honest opinion about the game and/or until people get in open beta to properly test it for themselves.

 

Question what you get instead of giving game publishers a blank check.

  CazNeerg

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

1/30/14 2:39:09 PM#60
Originally posted by killion81

It sounds like you're saying that people should stand for nothing.  The only thing they should care about is their short term entertainment.  Correct me if I'm not understanding this correctly.

We aren't talking about apartheid here.  We are talking about video games.  Get some perspective.

What I am saying is that any product is designed with a specific purpose in mind.  If you try the product out, and it fulfills that purpose to your satisfaction, then it was money well spent.  Even if the person who made and/or sold the product is the scuzziest deviant ever to walk the earth.  You aren't going to drive these people out of business by standing on principle, because you are never going to get enough people to stand with you for your principle to matter to the bottom line.  So as a practical matter the only thing you accomplish by refusing to give money to "bad" companies is depriving yourself of whatever enjoyment you would have received from their products.

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by WikileaksEU
If they start selling the race or to be able to be any race in any alliance i want my money back for the CE. It should be CE only. Nothing else. I want to feel special for buying the CE. Zenimax understands this.

That isn't how F2P games work. They'll sell it eventually. You'll still have your book and action figure though. They won't mint more of those.

They won't make more, but if it is anything like most MMO collector's editions, they will severely overproduce it, and you will still be able to find copies a couple years later, often at a steep discount.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

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