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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » DEATH: The Single Most Important Design Decision

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89 posts found
  pharone1

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/26/06
Posts: 42

1/28/14 9:02:33 PM#61
Originally posted by SirPKsAlot
I like Battlefield's death system where when you die you can respawn as a new class right next to a squadmate.

Are you suggesting that you would just respawn next to a group member after so many minutes?

 

  Quirhid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5528

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

1/28/14 9:19:26 PM#62
Originally posted by pharone1
Originally posted by SirPKsAlot
I like Battlefield's death system where when you die you can respawn as a new class right next to a squadmate.

Are you suggesting that you would just respawn next to a group member after so many minutes?

I'm sure he didn't mean that. You can't just copy-paste a "death system" from another game and hope it works.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  aRtFuLThinG

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/30/09
Posts: 1020

1/28/14 9:50:34 PM#63
Originally posted by seacow1g

And now we get to the source of your problem. You can't see how death systems relate to these issues. If you understood it you'd understand why I think it's so important.

I think you got to realise that people who have opposing opinion to you, from what I can read, do understand. However in THEIR opinion it is not a priority to them or they don't have the same opinion on it as you.

 

Everyone has their own opinion on the importance/unimportance of the death mechanic and there is where your problem lies. You are going under the assumption that it is a statement of fact rather than an opinion. It is not. Death/penalty mechanic is a matter of opinion, and that opinion is diverse and everyone has different ideas from the looks of the comments.

 

That's why, what you said about the death mechanic and it's importance in the scheme of things is probably not reasonable to a lot of people. That's is also why developers tend to favor inclusive approach rather than exclusive.

  sunandshadow

Elite Member

Joined: 12/05/13
Posts: 635

1/28/14 10:01:28 PM#64
One of my favorite (and MMO-appropriate) death-related things is the way in Terraria each player's death is verbally broadcast to the the other players in humorous terms.  I think this would fit right in with games where it's announced on the world chat channel whenever a group defeats a boss or dungeon.  That's not really a death system, more of an accessory to one, but I think that giving deaths (and also maybe births) more social meaning would be a good way for MMOs to go.
  seacow1g

Novice Member

Joined: 7/27/13
Posts: 260

 
OP  1/28/14 10:27:47 PM#65
Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG
Originally posted by seacow1g

And now we get to the source of your problem. You can't see how death systems relate to these issues. If you understood it you'd understand why I think it's so important.

I think you got to realise that people who have opposing opinion to you, from what I can read, do understand. However in THEIR opinion it is not a priority to them or they don't have the same opinion on it as you.

 

Everyone has their own opinion on the importance/unimportance of the death mechanic and there is where your problem lies. You are going under the assumption that it is a statement of fact rather than an opinion. It is not. Death/penalty mechanic is a matter of opinion, and that opinion is diverse and everyone has different ideas from the looks of the comments.

 

That's why, what you said about the death mechanic and it's importance in the scheme of things is probably not reasonable to a lot of people. That's is also why developers tend to favor inclusive approach rather than exclusive.

No, he doesn't understand the relationship. For example, he stated that Zerging, exploration and death systems are unrelated. This couldn't be farther from the truth. How the game  deals with player failure/death has a huge effect on the behavior of players and how they approach situations. Not understanding the relationship between mechanics and how one design decision influences how players approach other facets of the game is a problem, you need to understand it to contribute intelligently to this discussion. I'm all for opposition, if it's at least intelligent. I've heard a few rebuttals in here that were in fact quite well conceived. His was not one, he just demonstrated a pure lack of understanding of the subject matter.

  seacow1g

Novice Member

Joined: 7/27/13
Posts: 260

 
OP  1/28/14 10:28:56 PM#66
Originally posted by sunandshadow
One of my favorite (and MMO-appropriate) death-related things is the way in Terraria each player's death is verbally broadcast to the the other players in humorous terms.  I think this would fit right in with games where it's announced on the world chat channel whenever a group defeats a boss or dungeon.  That's not really a death system, more of an accessory to one, but I think that giving deaths (and also maybe births) more social meaning would be a good way for MMOs to go.

I like you

  Mtibbs1989

Elite Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2691

1/28/14 10:45:58 PM#67
Originally posted by seacow1g
Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG
Originally posted by seacow1g

And now we get to the source of your problem. You can't see how death systems relate to these issues. If you understood it you'd understand why I think it's so important.

I think you got to realise that people who have opposing opinion to you, from what I can read, do understand. However in THEIR opinion it is not a priority to them or they don't have the same opinion on it as you.

 

Everyone has their own opinion on the importance/unimportance of the death mechanic and there is where your problem lies. You are going under the assumption that it is a statement of fact rather than an opinion. It is not. Death/penalty mechanic is a matter of opinion, and that opinion is diverse and everyone has different ideas from the looks of the comments.

 

That's why, what you said about the death mechanic and it's importance in the scheme of things is probably not reasonable to a lot of people. That's is also why developers tend to favor inclusive approach rather than exclusive.

No, he doesn't understand the relationship. For example, he stated that Zerging, exploration and death systems are unrelated. This couldn't be farther from the truth. How the game  deals with player failure/death has a huge effect on the behavior of players and how they approach situations. Not understanding the relationship between mechanics and how one design decision influences how players approach other facets of the game is a problem, you need to understand it to contribute intelligently to this discussion. I'm all for opposition, if it's at least intelligent. I've heard a few rebuttals in here that were in fact quite well conceived. His was not one, he just demonstrated a pure lack of understanding of the subject matter.

 There's no budging you from your blindness then. This topic stops dead in your tracks as you're obviously not open for discussion.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  seacow1g

Novice Member

Joined: 7/27/13
Posts: 260

 
OP  1/28/14 10:54:00 PM#68
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
 

 There's no budging you from your blindness then. This topic stops dead in your tracks as you're obviously not open for discuss.

With you I'm not, you can't discuss something with someone who doesn't understand the subject. I can't believe I'm saying this but the biggest troll on the forums (Nariusseldon) understands the topic better. I can't convince him because the fact is he likes how things are and doesn't care for change (which is the basis of most of his arguments in every topic). At least he knows that there's a relationship though between the death/failure system and how players approach everything in the game, he just doesn't see a need to change anything, and I can't argue with that logic. 

 

 

  aRtFuLThinG

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/30/09
Posts: 1020

1/28/14 11:00:38 PM#69
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by seacow1g
Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG
Originally posted by seacow1g

And now we get to the source of your problem. You can't see how death systems relate to these issues. If you understood it you'd understand why I think it's so important.

I think you got to realise that people who have opposing opinion to you, from what I can read, do understand. However in THEIR opinion it is not a priority to them or they don't have the same opinion on it as you.

 

Everyone has their own opinion on the importance/unimportance of the death mechanic and there is where your problem lies. You are going under the assumption that it is a statement of fact rather than an opinion. It is not. Death/penalty mechanic is a matter of opinion, and that opinion is diverse and everyone has different ideas from the looks of the comments.

 

That's why, what you said about the death mechanic and it's importance in the scheme of things is probably not reasonable to a lot of people. That's is also why developers tend to favor inclusive approach rather than exclusive.

No, he doesn't understand the relationship. For example, he stated that Zerging, exploration and death systems are unrelated. This couldn't be farther from the truth. How the game  deals with player failure/death has a huge effect on the behavior of players and how they approach situations. Not understanding the relationship between mechanics and how one design decision influences how players approach other facets of the game is a problem, you need to understand it to contribute intelligently to this discussion. I'm all for opposition, if it's at least intelligent. I've heard a few rebuttals in here that were in fact quite well conceived. His was not one, he just demonstrated a pure lack of understanding of the subject matter.

 There's no budging you from your blindness then. This topic stops dead in your tracks as you're obviously not open for discussion.

^ This.

 

Computers may be digital (0s and 1s) but human behaviours are quantum - you might be able to predict it but there are no certainties; and almost all are affected by the underlying of the opinion of a person.

 

Creativity has no "truth" or "standard template" or "best practices", and game design philosophies are NOT facts or gospel - it is all creativity. How player approach things is not standard from person to person, it differs.

 

There can be many good ways to do things with opposing philosophies when it comes to creative designs. Creative ideas are all opinions - and the opinion on this issue seems very diverse to me.

 

It is nice to be able to be reductive and abstract things to 1 simple system and all but that won't be inclusive of a lot of people and would in fact makes it "niche". If it is niche than it is by definition not an inclusive solution to, well, anything.

  Boneserino

Elite Member

Joined: 12/08/07
Posts: 788

1/29/14 1:42:41 AM#70
Originally posted by seacow1g
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
 

  Possibility beyond what? You're over thinking this topic. Of course you don't want the player to never die. But over thinking the death system beyond dying and respawning is just punishing the player for playing your game and failing. A simple respawn system is perfect for any game so long as there's enough challenge within the game.

Is it really that simple? Please just take a moment and actually think about designing some games. Think of some scenarios. I'll give you a couple to get you thinking, but rather than try to find flaws in mine I challenge you to think of scenarios of your own where similar problems may be applicable:

 

1) You want to have PvP but you don't want players running at eachother mindlessly spamming spells until one dies. You want people to pick their battles, organize, flank, prepare for engagements. You don't  want engagements to essentially often be decided by which side has the most players (ie the zerg effect). You want players to care about each death (both their own and their team mates) because it lowers the chances of their side winning. What kind of death system encourages players to play like this? Is this system designed for an instanced zone or a persistent world? Can you think of one that works in both?

 

2) You want to make parts of the world meaningful to visit, explore and adventure. How do you incentivize the player? What makes the journey special? Can everyone do it? How much effort does it take? What's your reward for doing it?  Is a reward even a reward if there's no risk or effort involved? Now design a death system in a game that has some parts of the gameworld easily accessible and meaningless and some of them highly rewarding (no instances, everyone should be able to go there at the same time but only a few succeed) that is not exploitable to make the highly rewarding areas easy to get to.

You are designing an MMO.   Are you going to intentionally design your MMO so that a certain percentage of players will become frustrated by a death penalty and quit the game??

 

Give your head a shake there man!!  That mechanic is for single player games.  The player has already paid for the game and knows what the challenge is.  They either finish it or they don't but at least they paid for it.

 

In an MMO it is about player retention and you aren't going to retain players if you make them afraid to play and punish them for making mistakes.   Hardcores might not love the idea  but  its already proven that they don't hang around any game for long anyway.

 

So sure, apply the kiss of death to your expensive MMO.   Kill players and make them suffer for it.  They are sure to come back for more and continue to pay for the priviledge. 

 

Forgot to add:  Of course everyone should be able to do it!   Duh!!

FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  rennm1993

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/29/14
Posts: 4

1/29/14 1:55:43 AM#71

Make it like if you die, you lose all your equipment that you are wearing on the spot. and X % of the item will drop. If you wanna get it back, you can go back to your corpse and retrieve.. Add much into the risk/reward experience.. Of course in like arena pvp, your gear wont dissapear because the arena dudes will retrieve your gear (corpse) and give you back X% of it without you actually travelling back to retrieve it.

 

just my 2cent.. definitely better than perma death and starting from scratch or derp I can pvp all day and lose cause the worst case scenario is I loss exp but its okay because I'm max lvl 99.

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3335

1/29/14 4:39:08 AM#72
     I"m surprised that so many debate and argue about many game mechanics such as death penalty, or XP is too fast, too slow or two whatever..  Has it occurred to most that ALL of these issues can be changed from server to server?  ALL the devs have to do is just the code from one server versus others..  Isn't that something we should be demanding from the devs?  I know I do..  I would love to see games like EQ and WoW to have different sets of rules per server..  It's not that hard to have different codes..
  Quirhid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5528

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

1/29/14 8:55:00 AM#73
Originally posted by Rydeson
     I"m surprised that so many debate and argue about many game mechanics such as death penalty, or XP is too fast, too slow or two whatever..  Has it occurred to most that ALL of these issues can be changed from server to server?  ALL the devs have to do is just the code from one server versus others..  Isn't that something we should be demanding from the devs?  I know I do..  I would love to see games like EQ and WoW to have different sets of rules per server..  It's not that hard to have different codes..

It is far more complicated than you make it sound. Designing and maintaining multiple different rulesets is very difficult and expensive. It is already difficult enough to make one ruleset work well.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  free2play

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/13/05
Posts: 1807

1/29/14 9:15:08 AM#74

Most online games now are fine with allowing it to be done. They want people to accomplish things. Often. Over and over. Again and again.

 

Increasing risk of defeat/ failure doesn't work well in this scenario because the core of the mechanic is to ring every nanosecond of repeat play (grind) out of it a company can. In order for companies to rethink defeat/ death they need to rethink reward.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19731

1/29/14 11:37:26 AM#75
Originally posted by seacow1g
Originally posted by Cephus404
 

Exactly.  If someone wants an accurate representation of the actual combat experience, go join the military and get into a war. That's about as realistic as it gets.

So your saying there's nothing in between the careless unorganized running amok in Call of Duty and real war? Dying is a terrible thing. Real life can be terrible. That's why we play games. But tell me, what do you think is more satisfying?

Of course there is a lot in between. Obviously you can play punishing sports like Football, and get concussion, or play EQ when it first released, and waste time staring at a spellbook.

But the point is whether it is good entertainment to use any of those.

It is not accidental that after so many years of video games development, got killed and respawn immediate at the last save point is the system used by most games. Don't tell me there was no exploration in the past. Simply, this simple play-again system works for many, and certainly works for me.

I obviously cannot say it is the *most* satisfying since there may be other systems out there, but certainly it is satisfying enough that i essentially forget its existence and enjoy the combat (or whatever gameplay).

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19731

1/29/14 11:40:19 AM#76
Originally posted by seacow1g
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
 

 There's no budging you from your blindness then. This topic stops dead in your tracks as you're obviously not open for discuss.

With you I'm not, you can't discuss something with someone who doesn't understand the subject. I can't believe I'm saying this but the biggest troll on the forums (Nariusseldon) understands the topic better. I can't convince him because the fact is he likes how things are and doesn't care for change (which is the basis of most of his arguments in every topic). At least he knows that there's a relationship though between the death/failure system and how players approach everything in the game, he just doesn't see a need to change anything, and I can't argue with that logic. 

 

 

I applaud your intellectual honesty, and the realization that understanding does not always correlate with agreement (hence you can disagree with me often, but still see logic in what i am saying).

This discussion is of course fun, but in the end, moot. I doubt most dev is going to change what is not broken. I was playing Crysis 3 ... *same* die-respawn-save-point system used in practically every game, and i have no urge to ask the devs to change anything.

 

  seacow1g

Novice Member

Joined: 7/27/13
Posts: 260

 
OP  1/29/14 5:40:47 PM#77
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by seacow1g
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
 

 There's no budging you from your blindness then. This topic stops dead in your tracks as you're obviously not open for discuss.

With you I'm not, you can't discuss something with someone who doesn't understand the subject. I can't believe I'm saying this but the biggest troll on the forums (Nariusseldon) understands the topic better. I can't convince him because the fact is he likes how things are and doesn't care for change (which is the basis of most of his arguments in every topic). At least he knows that there's a relationship though between the death/failure system and how players approach everything in the game, he just doesn't see a need to change anything, and I can't argue with that logic. 

 

 

I applaud your intellectual honesty, and the realization that understanding does not always correlate with agreement (hence you can disagree with me often, but still see logic in what i am saying).

This discussion is of course fun, but in the end, moot. I doubt most dev is going to change what is not broken. I was playing Crysis 3 ... *same* die-respawn-save-point system used in practically every game, and i have no urge to ask the devs to change anything.

 

Despite the fact that I know I'm not gonna get anywhere with you, you can't know you don't want something if you don't know what it is. I don't know what a better death system would look like (if I knew I wouldn't be trying to conceive of one) but I know what one could achieve. It affects everything, it's definitely worth thinking about.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19731

1/29/14 6:47:26 PM#78
Originally posted by seacow1g
 

Despite the fact that I know I'm not gonna get anywhere with you, you can't know you don't want something if you don't know what it is. I don't know what a better death system would look like (if I knew I wouldn't be trying to conceive of one) but I know what one could achieve. It affects everything, it's definitely worth thinking about.

That does not invalidate that so far, the current system works pretty well for me.

Sure, you can always argue that something fantastic will drop from the sky. And may be it will. But so what? I am not going to spend money or time worrying about that. I am going to enjoy what is available today.

I can't play things i don't know of, so it is moot.

  plat0nic

Novice Member

Joined: 11/20/03
Posts: 303

1/29/14 9:55:07 PM#79
Originally posted by Rydeson
     I"m surprised that so many debate and argue about many game mechanics such as death penalty, or XP is too fast, too slow or two whatever..  Has it occurred to most that ALL of these issues can be changed from server to server?  ALL the devs have to do is just the code from one server versus others..  Isn't that something we should be demanding from the devs?  I know I do..  I would love to see games like EQ and WoW to have different sets of rules per server..  It's not that hard to have different codes..

I agree. I know I for one would have characters at both extremes and one in the middle and adjust my play style accordingly or depending on how many beers I've had, that could be a determining factor in what server to use.


Main Game: Eldevin (Plat0nic)
2nd Game: Path of Exile (Platonic Hate)

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19731

1/30/14 1:30:30 PM#80
Originally posted by plat0nic
Originally posted by Rydeson
     I"m surprised that so many debate and argue about many game mechanics such as death penalty, or XP is too fast, too slow or two whatever..  Has it occurred to most that ALL of these issues can be changed from server to server?  ALL the devs have to do is just the code from one server versus others..  Isn't that something we should be demanding from the devs?  I know I do..  I would love to see games like EQ and WoW to have different sets of rules per server..  It's not that hard to have different codes..

I agree. I know I for one would have characters at both extremes and one in the middle and adjust my play style accordingly or depending on how many beers I've had, that could be a determining factor in what server to use.

Or, just have a difficulty slider like in D3.

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