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Shroud of the Avatar

Shroud of the Avatar 

General Discussion  » SotA Combat Revealed!

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59 posts found
  golden.radish

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/27/13
Posts: 12

 
OP  1/22/14 1:45:56 PM#41
Originally posted by Mandible
Can't find this combat video anywhere. All these links are to the 6 month progress video and I don't see any card game. ...... What am I missing here ? Can't even search YouTube and find it. 

As per the first post in this thread, the video demonstrating the Random Hotkey Combat UI / Deck mechanic is here.

Also, as a bonus, for those interested in reading Starr Longs (exec producer for SotA) opinion of RMT/pay2win, you can check that out here.

  InsaneMembrane

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/17/13
Posts: 146

1/24/14 8:49:35 PM#42
Originally posted by golden.radish
Originally posted by Mandible
Can't find this combat video anywhere. All these links are to the 6 month progress video and I don't see any card game. ...... What am I missing here ? Can't even search YouTube and find it. 

As per the first post in this thread, the video demonstrating the Random Hotkey Combat UI / Deck mechanic is here.

Also, as a bonus, for those interested in reading Starr Longs (exec producer for SotA) opinion of RMT/pay2win, you can check that out here.

As for Darkstarr's opinion on "pay to win" it is so very clear he was trolling that idiot in chat. Right to the point the guy in chat was rage quitting!  LAWL. 

Darkstarr is my hero for doing that and I'd love to see more of it, but this is totally what it causes. Backlash and silliness from people like Golden Rash here.

My only comment here is to @Darkstarr: Who's the more foolish, the fool or the fool who follows him?

Let the trolls do the trolling :P

 

 

  Sawlstone

Novice Member

Joined: 10/22/09
Posts: 308

1/24/14 8:54:09 PM#43
This is terrible. 
  doragon86

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/23/09
Posts: 587

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

1/24/14 9:01:48 PM#44
Hmm... until I see it fleshed out completely, I'll hold on to my comments. 

"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast,
And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:
And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill,
And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"
~Lord George Gordon Byron

  RebelScum99

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/26/12
Posts: 1127

1/24/14 9:01:56 PM#45
Originally posted by golden.radish

 

In particular, note that the combat UI will feature a randomized placement of skills, rather than the traditional user defined placement of skills, on the combat hotbar.

 

Holy shit, that sounds absolutely fucking terrible.  Surely there is more to it than that.  I mean, is that how they are going to make combat more difficult?  Why not just blindfold us as well?  Only allow us to use our feet on the keyboard instead of our hands?   

Since I can't actually see the video, I have to assume there is more to it than that.  Because if that is how this combat system actually works...well, Garriott should have just stayed in outer space.  

 

  InsaneMembrane

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/17/13
Posts: 146

1/24/14 9:13:58 PM#46
Originally posted by RebelScum99
Originally posted by golden.radish

 

In particular, note that the combat UI will feature a randomized placement of skills, rather than the traditional user defined placement of skills, on the combat hotbar.

 

Holy shit, that sounds absolutely fucking terrible.  Surely there is more to it than that.  I mean, is that how they are going to make combat more difficult?  Why not just blindfold us as well?  Only allow us to use our feet on the keyboard instead of our hands?   

Since I can't actually see the video, I have to assume there is more to it than that.  Because if that is how this combat system actually works...well, Garriott should have just stayed in outer space.  

 

Yeah, actually there will be much more to it than that. You know, even us early KS pledge members do not yet have access to test the combat system in the RCs yet, so speaking of it as broken at this stage is very misinformed almost to the point of brain death.

 

 

  golden.radish

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/27/13
Posts: 12

 
OP  1/25/14 11:42:22 AM#47
Originally posted by RebelScum99

Holy dung, that sounds absolutely farming terrible.  Surely there is more to it than that.  I mean, is that how they are going to make combat more difficult?  Why not just blindfold us as well?  Only allow us to use our feet on the keyboard instead of our hands?   

Since I can't actually see the video, I have to assume there is more to it than that.  Because if that is how this combat system actually works...well, Garriott should have just stayed in outer space.  

In their words, this will make combat more random.  The outcome of every fight will be unpredictable, so this will keep players on their toes.  Chris Spears calls it "Plate spinning" and it's a good thing, from their perspective.  They have also admitted that the current UI keeps the focus on the randomly updating hotbars, rather than combat.  Their solution to date is that they will add primary/bright/bold colors to the backgrounds of the skills, to make them stand out more.  I'm sure you can see where that would end up, ultimately.

How making direct player conflict success or failure purely a matter of random luck is in any way working towards a "spiritual successor to UO", I will never know.

The video is the only demonstration they've shown of the combat UI part of the larger combat system.  It is also the only part of the system they've confirmed will not be changing unless the entire system is scrapped after March, when backers will get their hands on the system in-game, for the first time.  They have backup plans, but when you start to dig into the system, it's apparent they feel this is the one innovation that will make the game great.  That is, there are tendrils from this current combat design that extend into the entire game.  As with many design decisions, these systems rarely operate in isolation.

I feel it important to point out that from April 1 to October 31 is one hundred and forty eight working days. It doesn't seem reasonable that they can design, test, implement, polish and balance a new, fun, challenging and innovative holistic combat solution, including one that handles scenarios, direct player conflict, guild conflict, wilderness PvE, solo combat, group combat and multi-group combat, within that time frame.

I'm sure they will be able to put something in, but it sure won't be as polished compared to something they would have worked on for triple that time.  To that end, they've go two outcomes for this situation. 1) they put in what they have and reduce their target demographic.  2) they take out what they have and put in an inferior solution due to time constraints.

I think when you're consciously setting yourself up to fail, you need to take a step back and re-assess your overall design goals.  The larger problem, in addition to combat design issues, is that there are currently no publicly released design goals for the economy, travel, death, player conflict, rmt, gold sinks, harvesting, skill caps, or any of the stretch goals from kickstarter.  Those specific design goals are what will impact players most in their day to day play, and there isn't even a hint of where they expect those goals to be.

They're selling items on their store, today, without clearly identifying why those items may be of value.  An example:  They're selling housing, but there's no details regarding travel.  If you can mark & recall in-hex, like you might expect from a spiritual successor of UO, then where your house is has no meaning.  No details.  When asked directly, they ignore the questions or say "it's not designed yet".  If it's not designed 9 months before launch, when WILL it be designed?

Housing is treated with such value because originally, you needed a house to have a vendor.  Now, apparently, you can have a vendor without a house, maybe?  Then to get a tax-free vendor, you need to pay more.  Well, here's the thing everyone is glossing over:  Portalarium has provided exactly zero information regarding tax/fee rates, structures, guidelines or design goals for housing or vendors.  And yet, without that context, those items are for sale.

They're selling indestructible harvesting tools, and yet we know nothing of harvesting, nor if those tools will be of value one week after launch.  They could be game-breaking, or useless, and yet they're for sale without any context.

Another example: They've mentioned there will be direct player conflict, but again, no details regarding travel.  Can you recall out of a fight?  Will recall appear randomly?  No details.  When asked directly, again, the question is either ignored or responded to with "it's not designed yet". 

They haven't even described when and where, in the open world, direct player conflict will occur.  At the start of the project, during Kickstarter, direct player conflict was originally presented as being ever present, with corridors of safety and low-reward for those unwilling to participate.  Since then, it's change to consensual only, with hints that end-game resources for all crafting will be PvP only.  And yet, when asked to elaborate on these specific points, no details are forthcoming.

It's more than a little frustrating.

  Colt47

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/03/14
Posts: 213

1/25/14 6:04:26 PM#48

One aspect to note about the combat is that there is no active dodging in the presentation.  It looks like the player runs up to a monster, engages it, and utilizes moves granted by the cards presented to him on the action bar.  So in essence, the tension from fighting isn't going to be "can I dodge X attack" to rather "will I draw the right move this encounter".  

The system feels like it is putting the randomness in the wrong place.  In battle, people don't randomly choose some attack followed by some other attack, they use the ones that they know will work.  If he wants to make the game have some level of randomness, it should probably sit on the AI's shoulders, with enemies trying different tactics if one tactic fails.   It would add a lot more tension having to worry if the enemy has picked some tactic that your current character is ill equipped to counter, imo.

  golden.radish

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/27/13
Posts: 12

 
OP  1/25/14 8:07:34 PM#49

When this combat mechanic was first described, your point, Colt47, was brought up.  Many contributors in the SotA official forum community felt their design would put randomness in the wrong place, and there were better choices available.

Constructively, many viable alternative mechanics that create completely randomized combat were suggested, including extremely detailed implementation information.  Many required the user to pay attention to the enemy and react appropriately.  Many required the user to plan ahead for combat.  Many included a restricted, limited or dynamic skill set available in combat.

None of the community suggested alternatives relied solely on a random UI to achieve unpredictable combat.

These constructive suggestions were all rejected or ignored.  All those threads are on the official forums to read, today.

  InsaneMembrane

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/17/13
Posts: 146

1/25/14 8:53:47 PM#50
Originally posted by golden.radish

 

These constructive suggestions were all rejected or ignored.  All those threads are on the official forums to read, today.

 

Oh yeah? Link me to a dev comment where it said the community suggestions are rejected, cos I will blog about it if they have done that. But I haven't seen that going around.

 

  golden.radish

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/27/13
Posts: 12

 
OP  1/26/14 12:10:52 AM#51
Originally posted by InsaneMembrane
Originally posted by golden.radish

These constructive suggestions were all rejected or ignored.  All those threads are on the official forums to read, today.

 Oh yeah? Link me to a dev comment where it said the community suggestions are rejected, cos I will blog about it if they have done that. But I haven't seen that going around.

Just a few of the official forum threads where this has happened, many times: (in one thread more than 15 suggestions were offered and then rejected outright, or ignored entirely with no response.)

Combat, Magic, Skills, Advancement (MEGA POST)

Let's talk about combat!

Starr Long Discusses Chaotic Aspects of SOTA Combat

Combat, Magic, Skills - No UI, No 'Deck' Proposal

Reply to Chris's Combat Description

---

happy reading.

  RebelScum99

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/26/12
Posts: 1127

1/26/14 12:27:10 AM#52
Originally posted by InsaneMembrane
Originally posted by RebelScum99
Originally posted by golden.radish

 

In particular, note that the combat UI will feature a randomized placement of skills, rather than the traditional user defined placement of skills, on the combat hotbar.

 

Holy shit, that sounds absolutely fucking terrible.  Surely there is more to it than that.  I mean, is that how they are going to make combat more difficult?  Why not just blindfold us as well?  Only allow us to use our feet on the keyboard instead of our hands?   

Since I can't actually see the video, I have to assume there is more to it than that.  Because if that is how this combat system actually works...well, Garriott should have just stayed in outer space.  

 

Yeah, actually there will be much more to it than that. You know, even us early KS pledge members do not yet have access to test the combat system in the RCs yet, so speaking of it as broken at this stage is very misinformed almost to the point of brain death.

 

 

Yeah....except....it's pretty easy to write this combat off due to the fact that this one aspect alone GUARANTEES that the player will not be looking at the actual field of combat.  Rather, he'll be studying his action bar more closely than even the tab-target rotational spammy games do.  

There is no way to spin this positively.  I have no idea what the rest of the combat entails, but the only thing brain dead is this random deck of cards idea.  It's horrible, and I can't see anything else they could add to combat to make this even remotely interesting.  

  InsaneMembrane

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/17/13
Posts: 146

1/27/14 2:17:10 AM#53
Originally posted by RebelScum99
Originally posted by InsaneMembrane
Originally posted by RebelScum99
Originally posted by golden.radish

 

In particular, note that the combat UI will feature a randomized placement of skills, rather than the traditional user defined placement of skills, on the combat hotbar.

 

Holy shit, that sounds absolutely fucking terrible.  Surely there is more to it than that.  I mean, is that how they are going to make combat more difficult?  Why not just blindfold us as well?  Only allow us to use our feet on the keyboard instead of our hands?   

Since I can't actually see the video, I have to assume there is more to it than that.  Because if that is how this combat system actually works...well, Garriott should have just stayed in outer space.  

 

Yeah, actually there will be much more to it than that. You know, even us early KS pledge members do not yet have access to test the combat system in the RCs yet, so speaking of it as broken at this stage is very misinformed almost to the point of brain death.

 

 

Yeah....except....it's pretty easy to write this combat off due to the fact that this one aspect alone GUARANTEES that the player will not be looking at the actual field of combat.  Rather, he'll be studying his action bar more closely than even the tab-target rotational spammy games do.  

There is no way to spin this positively.  I have no idea what the rest of the combat entails, but the only thing brain dead is this random deck of cards idea.  It's horrible, and I can't see anything else they could add to combat to make this even remotely interesting.  

 

I am not defending it, in fact I am positive if it doesn't work out and everyone bitches when they let us Kids test it in RC/Alpha it will be removed from the game and we'll get our WoW cookie cutter combat engine handed over to us.

That is the benefit of this game, we will decide and it would be a lot more helpful if constructive comments were made about the combat engine over on the SotA forum and not just a stream of QQ here. If you are one of the SotA forum users commenting on it, then great.

I dont see what the problem is anyway, if you look at my and many other's UO screens, we have crap ALL over them to the point where you can hardly see crap. Do/did us UO players care about our bars, spells, scrolls, skills getting all over the screen?  Nope. Harden up girls, macros will be doing all of our work for us anyway as with all previous games.

  superconducting

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/21/13
Posts: 705

2/20/14 1:28:49 PM#54
Originally posted by golden.radish
Originally posted by InsaneMembrane
Originally posted by golden.radish

These constructive suggestions were all rejected or ignored.  All those threads are on the official forums to read, today.

 Oh yeah? Link me to a dev comment where it said the community suggestions are rejected, cos I will blog about it if they have done that. But I haven't seen that going around.

Just a few of the official forum threads where this has happened, many times: (in one thread more than 15 suggestions were offered and then rejected outright, or ignored entirely with no response.)

Combat, Magic, Skills, Advancement (MEGA POST)

Let's talk about combat!

Starr Long Discusses Chaotic Aspects of SOTA Combat

Combat, Magic, Skills - No UI, No 'Deck' Proposal

Reply to Chris's Combat Description

---

happy reading.

Yeah... So much for "Crowdfunding" and hearing out the players. This is an absolute farce as far as I'm concerned.

The ridiculous combat system is a prime example of this dev team doing what they're doing regardless of how well it is received by the community.

I hope people rip the combat apart when release 4 comes.

  Karble

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/13/09
Posts: 671

I play therefor I am

2/20/14 2:53:33 PM#55

I can see quick select buttons changing based on conditions and skills/spells used.

They did this in Guildwars 2 to indicate secondary functions of several abilities.

There really wasn't anything random about it though. It was fairly predictable.

Not sure exactly how this would work if it was totally random though. Wouldn't seem

like anything that you could get better at over time with the exception of "Simon Says"

based reaction which doesn't sound like any natural flowing quality part of an RPG in

the modern AA or AAA scene. I could maybe see that sort of thing catching on big time

with a rythm game like the "Bit Trip" game series which is very simple and fun for what it is.

My hope is we have something closer to the traditional UO for combat.

8 circles of spells to use

lots of different weapons that are very effective when mastered

bow and arrow

potions

spell scrolls

int / strength / dex

poisons

bandages

skills were important to a build for battles

hiding

parry

spell resist

Animal taming

detect hidden

poisoning

healing

Basically a few talented players could cause alot of trouble for a large group back in the day in UO.

certain weapons could take away your movement quickly.

poison tipped weapons could cause death even after a person almost got away.

knowing when to hide and use detect hidden were important.

You don't have to get crazy with combat or try to invent new systems...the old ones were great and would work well in this

new land.

I always enjoyed seeing people use summoned pets or tamed dragons to fight with. So much epic fun there.

Here is to hoping they don't screw it up!

 

 

 

  InsaneMembrane

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/17/13
Posts: 146

3/03/14 9:22:49 PM#56
Originally posted by superconducting
Originally posted by golden.radish
Originally posted by InsaneMembrane
Originally posted by golden.radish

These constructive suggestions were all rejected or ignored.  All those threads are on the official forums to read, today.

 Oh yeah? Link me to a dev comment where it said the community suggestions are rejected, cos I will blog about it if they have done that. But I haven't seen that going around.

Just a few of the official forum threads where this has happened, many times: (in one thread more than 15 suggestions were offered and then rejected outright, or ignored entirely with no response.)

Combat, Magic, Skills, Advancement (MEGA POST)

Let's talk about combat!

Starr Long Discusses Chaotic Aspects of SOTA Combat

Combat, Magic, Skills - No UI, No 'Deck' Proposal

Reply to Chris's Combat Description

---

happy reading.

Yeah... So much for "Crowdfunding" and hearing out the players. This is an absolute farce as far as I'm concerned.

The ridiculous combat system is a prime example of this dev team doing what they're doing regardless of how well it is received by the community.

I hope people rip the combat apart when release 4 comes.

BTW I did review all of those threads. Not once did I find a comment from a dev saying that they are ignoring our opinions. In fact in some of them and many of the new posts the devs are actively debating and  discussing the facts and information on the topics.  Y'all need to go read up there.  

 

  rild

Novice Member

Joined: 12/14/13
Posts: 5

3/06/14 5:21:29 PM#57

I've been in the SotA community since Kickstarter, and I've never found the devs to be anything but accepting and open-minded about community suggestions. We have a very vocal community that is not hesitant to speak up when we disagree with the devs, and we frequently toss around all kinds of crazy ideas. I have seen Richard take suggestions from community members live in a video chat and toss them to the development team. It is a very fluid collaboration and I have been very impressed with the level of attention given to our opinions and ideas.

Forums can be confusing sometimes, and intimidating to newcomers, with multiple threads picking up and leaving off. If you're interested in more information, please don't hesitate to ask in a post as there are many helpful people on the site who are happy to answer questions.

We'd love to have you along on our adventure!!

  Arglebargle

Elite Member

Joined: 6/13/07
Posts: 1073

3/06/14 6:12:56 PM#58

We want Innovation!

 

Exactly like it was at one snapshot in time, over ten years ago.

 

Otherwise.....Anathema!!

If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  Arglebargle

Elite Member

Joined: 6/13/07
Posts: 1073

3/06/14 6:15:55 PM#59
How about a limited deck, where players get to determine the makeup of the cards in the deck that can pop up on the tray?  And cards that can be developed by training, practice, or even drops (preferably relating the foe dropping it).

If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

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