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MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » New data settles it, F2P makes much more money than P2P

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515 posts found
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17959

 
OP  1/24/14 2:42:49 PM#321
Originally posted by Simsu

With all due respect to the OP...

Why, as a consumer, would I care about which payment model makes the company the most money? (nevermind all the things everyone is point out about these numbers.)

As a player, I'll pay whatever I think the game is worth and frankly every F2P game that I've tried wasn't worth the cost of free.

I don't know about you .. but it is fun reading and discussion about payment models. If you care enough to comment, that is fun for me.

And that is just you .. i find many fun F2P that i enjoy totally free.

  Cecropia

Gumshoe

Joined: 3/06/09
Posts: 3201

Poacher killer.

1/24/14 3:30:25 PM#322
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Simsu

With all due respect to the OP...

Why, as a consumer, would I care about which payment model makes the company the most money? (nevermind all the things everyone is point out about these numbers.)

As a player, I'll pay whatever I think the game is worth and frankly every F2P game that I've tried wasn't worth the cost of free.

I don't know about you .. but it is fun reading and discussion about payment models. If you care enough to comment, that is fun for me.

And that is just you .. i find many fun F2P that i enjoy totally free.

Very telling that you are avoiding Fractal_Analogy's posts.

Maybe you won't have as much fun playing with him, eh? 

"Chuck's a good fighter but he's a UFC fighter... this is Pride." - Quinton Rampage Jackson
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  Pyatra

Elite Member

Joined: 4/06/13
Posts: 632

1/24/14 3:37:51 PM#323

OMG is this thread still going?  This is how I feel about this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEC_lkpD3rM

 

  Nevulus

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/23/06
Posts: 1184

1/24/14 3:40:29 PM#324
Originally posted by Fractal_Analogy

Is there no moderation here, no one who cares and protect this community from trolls?

Nope, look at the OPs post count and you shall have your answer. They thrive here, same people under different accounts.

  Pyatra

Elite Member

Joined: 4/06/13
Posts: 632

1/24/14 3:51:48 PM#325
I'm really surprised they didn't edit out that NDA breach that lasted a couple quotes.
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17959

 
OP  1/24/14 4:14:43 PM#326
Originally posted by Nevulus
Originally posted by Fractal_Analogy

Is there no moderation here, no one who cares and protect this community from trolls?

Nope, look at the OPs post count and you shall have your answer. They thrive here, same people under different accounts.

One man's discussion is another man's trolling. And why would you care anyway? You can always ignore threads you don't like, and posters you don't agree with.

 

  Hyanmen

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/11/06
Posts: 4929

1/24/14 4:19:42 PM#327

Crappy MMO's with small playerbases make more money off F2P and good MMO's with big playerbases make more money off P2P. Whats new?

Oh also, good P2P MMO's with big playerbases make more F2P money than dozens of crappy exclusively F2P MMO's.

Long live the supreme kings of P2P.

FF:ARR FATE grinding: People not having fun by doing something not actually intended to get to a point that doesn't really matter as fast as possible. Just so they can do the same thing over and over again to gain a piece of virtual loot.

  Pyatra

Elite Member

Joined: 4/06/13
Posts: 632

1/24/14 4:38:34 PM#328

I believe that there should be a model where everyone pays a subscriber fee but people who purchase $X amount from the cash shop should be allowed to play for free.  That way the ones with enough money to actually back the game (whales if you will, but I find that very derogatory) can invest in the game/cash shop in whatever form they feel like.

Or another option is to have it f2p and if you do not purchase $X amount from the cash shop within 3 months your account should be permanently deleted.  That way if someone does decide to come back the publisher can have an influx to the cash shop as they feel the "catchup tension" to get to the "level/progress" that they were before.  This eliminates the locusts of hanging around taking free handouts from those of us willing to make cash shop purchases and also incurring extra unneeded bandwidth/server costs to the publisher.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17959

 
OP  1/24/14 4:44:12 PM#329
Originally posted by Pyatra

I believe that there should be a model where everyone pays a subscriber fee but people who purchase $X amount from the cash shop should be allowed to play for free.  That way the ones with enough money to actually back the game (whales if you will, but I find that very derogatory) can invest in the game/cash shop in whatever form they feel like.

Or another option is to have it f2p and if you do not purchase $X amount from the cash shop within 3 months your account should be permanently deleted.  That way if someone does decide to come back the publisher can have an influx to the cash shop as they feel the "catchup tension" to get to the "level/progress" that they were before.  This eliminates the locusts of hanging around taking free handouts from those of us willing to make cash shop purchases and also incurring extra unneeded bandwidth/server costs to the publisher.

Are you planning to become a game dev? No one is implementing your set of rules today. I am enjoying quite a few games paying absolutely nothing.

 

  Pyatra

Elite Member

Joined: 4/06/13
Posts: 632

1/24/14 4:54:24 PM#330
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Pyatra

I believe that there should be a model where everyone pays a subscriber fee but people who purchase $X amount from the cash shop should be allowed to play for free.  That way the ones with enough money to actually back the game (whales if you will, but I find that very derogatory) can invest in the game/cash shop in whatever form they feel like.

Or another option is to have it f2p and if you do not purchase $X amount from the cash shop within 3 months your account should be permanently deleted.  That way if someone does decide to come back the publisher can have an influx to the cash shop as they feel the "catchup tension" to get to the "level/progress" that they were before.  This eliminates the locusts of hanging around taking free handouts from those of us willing to make cash shop purchases and also incurring extra unneeded bandwidth/server costs to the publisher.

Are you planning to become a game dev? No one is implementing your set of rules today. I am enjoying quite a few games paying absolutely nothing.

 

It's not all about your unnecessary existence in a f2p game.  I just think it is selfish but also naïve of you to think of only yourself, it's like you can't even see the investment opportunity from the business side of things.  Secondly "devs" do what they are told to do when you pay them on salary, it has nothing to do with what they want from a business perspective.  That's why I like the f2p market, once the game is created you can reduce your development workforce to a few focused teams to keep the game running and design/implement purchasable items to also keep the game in the black. 

  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

1/24/14 4:57:28 PM#331

Um.................................................................

 

Did you read the caption under that before doing your typical misinformation post about how much better F2P is doing?

 

It says: "Top 10 online PC titles based on estimate worldwide, free to play earnings for 2013. WoW and The Old Republic are primarily subscription based titles, but also generate revenue through the sale of micro-transactions."

 

This is a list specifically limited to online (read multiplayer) PC only titles and how much they make on their F2P side. This means all of the WoW subs aren't added in (nor the SWtOR subs). It also means no console games, no mobile, no social browser games etc.

 

In other words there is absolutely no correlation to be drawn with that data to compare P2P to F2P. So, as usual, you misrepresented information in your attempt to convince everyone that F2P is the only right choice.

 

Now if only I knew why you made a point of doing that instead of normally discussing things.

  spizz

Elite Member

Joined: 7/11/04
Posts: 2534

1/24/14 4:58:44 PM#332
Originally posted by nariusseldon

reposting the link from another topic:

http://www.superdataresearch.com/blog/us-digital-games-market/

But the point is:

In the top 10 money making games (and most listed here on MMORPG.com), all but ONE is sub-only (WOW).

And wow is only #7, and making less than half compared to LoL.

This pretty much shows that to make money, F2P beats P2P, and often you don't even need a virtual world.

 

Yeah, but in the list only 2 mmorpgs would interest me. That would be WoW and TFC2.

 

All these other F2P are like most on the market and they just suck. 

 

The issue is that companies look too much to earn money instead delivering a great  game.

  CazNeerg

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

1/24/14 6:15:15 PM#333
Originally posted by Fractal_Analogy
Originally posted by CazNeerg

We know how much subs cost.  We know how many subs it would take to make more money than the games on that list.  We know that when games have sub numbers that high, they brag about them.  We know that no game other than WoW is bragging.  The conclusion from all the things we know is not a difficult one.  Every game in the MMO space that is competitive with WoW in terms of revenue is F2P.  They aren't even freemium, they are straight F2P.

I happen to think freemium is a necessary model (long term, after the launch window milking of box sales and subs) for any new game that includes a sub, but I really, really don't like pure F2P games.  The fact that I don't like them doesn't change the reality that they can be fantastic money makers.

 Very interesting post. May I ask how you know all this..?  (Sounds like one big uneducated guess) 

I guess this bears repeating, but I work with top MMORPG developers & work directly with such metrics, being discussed within this thread. Very few within this thread, even remotely understand what these numbers mean.

 Nothing in the MMO space is competitive with WoW in terms of sustained revenues.

WoW is what one would call an "anomaly". When a person begins to use World of Warcraft itself, or it's business model in an argument, you have already tipped your hand; of ignorance. You isolate WoW and discuss everything else, to ferret out the true nature of the MMO space.

The idle chatter in this thread is incredible. Even 10 year players can illustrate how skewed many of these arguments are. Yet, undaunted, same people come back with even more absurd posts, based on more opinion. Starting to think there isn't a real community here at MMORPG. 

Is there no moderation here, no one who cares and protect this community from trolls? 

First, the points where we agree.  WoW is certainly an anomaly, but I try to always include it when I make points about what appears to be happening in the market, because if I don't then people will whip out a mention of it as if it is some kind of trump card. And I fully agree, it would be nice if the moderators were more aggressive in dealing with people who are clearly trolling...

Second, a question.  Where is your proof that you work with any MMORPG developers, let alone top ones?  Or that you work directly with metrics?  This being the internet, we really have no reason to believe it just because you claim it, and trying to base your argument on coming from a position of authority only works when you have actually established that you are an authority.

As for how I "know all this," a lot of it is simple math.  The normal price for a subscription is 15/month/player.  If a player stays subscribed for a whole year, that means $180/year/player.  In order to make as much money annually from subscriptions as the number ten game on superdataresearch's list made from it's cash shop, a game would need to average more than 670,000 subscribers over the course of a year.  The only current game which we have *any* reason to believe has more subscribers than that is WoW.  

Please, if you actually have data that contradicts my analysis, or contradicts superdataresearch's numbers, share it with us.  That would give you a lot more credibility than making posts with lots of words that boil down to telling us "I am an expert, and you are wrong" without actually including any content.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

  Gaendric

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/20/04
Posts: 279

1/24/14 7:14:59 PM#334

Stop using that silly list :p

Seriously, what are we talking about here? 

That F2P is better if a dev wants to make a MOBA or FPS or Beat'em'Up or 2D Kids game?

Wrong forum. :)

 

If we focus on MMORPGs that list actually doesn't show F2P favorably at all. 

It has 1 "made for F2P" game, and that is basically a 2D game for a young audience.

Lineage ran for a really long time with high sub numbers. (up to 3mil at a certain point), hardly a good example for "launch F2P!"

WoW isn't an F2P game, nor is SWTOR (hybrid).

 

Anyway, I like F2P and I do think it is highly profitable. 

This whole "mine is bigger than yours" discussion is pointless and we have to see any applicable data so far.

All I am saying is stop using bogus data to back up made up claims.

Thanks from all of us.


The mind projection fallacy is the assumption that our subjective judgments (or lack thereof) reflect intrinsic qualities of objects or reality in general.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17959

 
OP  1/24/14 7:26:44 PM#335
Originally posted by spizz

Yeah, but in the list only 2 mmorpgs would interest me. That would be WoW and TFC2.

 

All these other F2P are like most on the market and they just suck. 

 

The issue is that companies look too much to earn money instead delivering a great  game.

That is just you. You don't think LoL is a great game? Many long time players would disagree.

The point is that what you (one person) like is irrelevant to the devs. They look at the market and see what the mass audience will like. Don't tell me you don't think no one likes LoL.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17959

 
OP  1/24/14 7:28:43 PM#336
Originally posted by Gaendric

That F2P is better if a dev wants to make a MOBA or FPS or Beat'em'Up or 2D Kids game?

Wrong forum. :)

nah .. LoL is discussed here on a daily basis. And MMORPGs are competing with those games for players' attention anyway. Don't tell me you don't think the WoT and WoW audience overlaps.

 

  Gaendric

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/20/04
Posts: 279

1/24/14 7:35:00 PM#337

Bleh, forum killed it. Anyway: 

 

"The Pub at MMORPG.COM

Use this forum to talk about MMORPGs. Please stay on the topic about MMORPGs and use the "off-topic" forum for unrelated posts."

The mind projection fallacy is the assumption that our subjective judgments (or lack thereof) reflect intrinsic qualities of objects or reality in general.

  CazNeerg

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

1/24/14 7:51:56 PM#338
Originally posted by Gaendric

Stop using that silly list :p

Seriously, what are we talking about here? 

That F2P is better if a dev wants to make a MOBA or FPS or Beat'em'Up or 2D Kids game?

Wrong forum. :) 

If we focus on MMORPGs that list actually doesn't show F2P favorably at all. 

It has 1 "made for F2P" game, and that is basically a 2D game for a young audience.

Lineage ran for a really long time with high sub numbers. (up to 3mil at a certain point), hardly a good example for "launch F2P!"

WoW isn't an F2P game, nor is SWTOR (hybrid). 

Anyway, I like F2P and I do think it is highly profitable. 

This whole "mine is bigger than yours" discussion is pointless and we have to see any applicable data so far.

All I am saying is stop using bogus data to back up made up claims.

Thanks from all of us.

Mine and yours?  I know I am not a game developer.  Are you?

The point is that every one of the games on the list is reported to make more money just from it's cash shop than a sub-based game would make from less than roughly an annual average of 672,000 (western priced) subscribers.  Are you aware of a data source which indicates some game other than WoW currently can claim that many subs?  I'm not, and if WoW really is the only one, it appears to be the case that a popular cash shop makes far more money than subs do, unless you are the admitted anomaly known as WoW.

In a discussion of money, the most relevant portion of a F2P game isn't even the free, it's the cash shop.  Something which both WoW and TOR have, and on which both are making more money than other games do from their subs, before even factoring in their own sub revenue.  Please, explain to me how it is logical at this point to assume F2P (cash shops) doesn't make much more money than P2P (subs)?

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

  Gaendric

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/20/04
Posts: 279

1/24/14 8:32:04 PM#339
Originally posted by CazNeerg

In a discussion of money, the most relevant portion of a F2P game isn't even the free, it's the cash shop.  Something which both WoW and TOR have, and on which both are making more money than other games do from their subs, before even factoring in their own sub revenue.  Please, explain to me how it is logical at this point to assume F2P (cash shops) doesn't make much more money than P2P (subs)?

You need to brush up on your terminology.

cash shop != F2P

 

Listing WoW (or it's shop) as F2P is /facepalm-worthy.

 

This applies to a hybrid like SWTOR too btw. Unless you have data that shows all their shop income is from the free players and not from the subbers.

Then again.. meaningful data is not one of the strengths of this thread.

 

disclaimer:

I think F2P is very successful. I play F2P games. I like F2P.

I do not like people using bogus data and logical fallacies to "prove" made up "facts" though.

 

The mind projection fallacy is the assumption that our subjective judgments (or lack thereof) reflect intrinsic qualities of objects or reality in general.

  CazNeerg

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

1/24/14 9:19:18 PM#340
Originally posted by Gaendric

You need to brush up on your terminology.

cash shop != F2P

 Listing WoW (or it's shop) as F2P is /facepalm-worthy.

 This applies to a hybrid like SWTOR too btw. Unless you have data that shows all their shop income is from the free players and not from the subbers.

Then again.. meaningful data is not one of the strengths of this thread.

 disclaimer:

I think F2P is very successful. I play F2P games. I like F2P.

I do not like people using bogus data and logical fallacies to "prove" made up "facts" though. 

You are splitting hairs.  The revenue source for F2P games is cash shops.  The industry standard is to report cash shop revenue as F2P revenue, even if it's from a game that has subs.

If the thread title had said "New data settles it, cash shops make much more money than subscriptions" would you still be arguing?

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

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