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MMORPG Game Concepts  » RealmLords II concept announced

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52 posts found
  Gaendric

Novice Member

Joined: 4/20/04
Posts: 279

1/24/14 3:02:24 PM#21
Originally posted by RealmLordsKen

1.  I agree.  Best guess is all I can hope for given lack of real data.  Polls here on the forum are pretty helpful.  Also the cliques that form of players of certain style games.

I'd break them down as:

  • UO players - aka full sandboxers (deep world sim with PVP but not only about PVP)
  • DF players - sandbox light mostly about PVP
  • WoW cloners - quest hub hopping, small dungeons, battlegrounds, raid and PVP endgame
  • EQ / Old Schoolers - Pre WoW clone themeparks - details vary but semi-sandboxy, sort of grindy
  • DAOC 3 Faction Players - Similar to Old Schoolers, but emphasis on 3 faction PVE then 3 faction PVP
  • 2012+ Action - Close to WoW Cloners but with action combat and world vs world PVP
  • Heavy Storyline - Close to WoW clones (especially Cata) with long arc storyline questing
  • Asian Grinder Players - Close to Old School but tangented (non-aggro mobs, heavy grind)  Lots of 2 faction PVP
  • Modern Clickfest Players - click for quest, click run to mobs, click kill mobs, click run back to quest... etc.

I don't really know where RL2 fits with these people.  Old schoolers, sort of sandboxy, sort of Action RPG? 

I like the competitive PvE idea. I agree you don't necessarily need PvP mechanics (as in fighting vs each other) to have "PvP" (as in players competing against each other). 

You plan on having adventure areas anyway, could surely set up some/many of them as competitive events or perma-competitive settings (who gets the resources etc.).

Needs some planning and brainstorming to pull it off, but it is a very intriguing idea.

You could take it to an extent where these competitive areas give bonuses to the winning realm (in the area or even world wide) or slowly influence/change the world over time. 

 

RL2 could certainly draw from the UO pool (UO's numbers something like doubled after Trammel, so it wasn't all PvP only players) 

 

WoW cloners could be a tough sell. :)  But there is surely overlap. Many people play these games without being too big fans of the specific game style, they just want polished big games, and those are mostly in this category.

 

Old-schoolers would definitely be interested and could get hooked. They are craving for a well made RL2 type game.

 

DAoC players will have some overlap, but most of them do really like PvP. Then again, competitive realm based PvE has some similarities to catch their attention and then it's up to you to get them hooked (I am a DAoC vet, and I could see myself having long term fun without direct PvP, enjoying competitive PvE and exploring/crafting instead)

 

Rest of the groups will probably not have too much overlap. But it is all relative. Every player is different.

 

You could add in socializers/RPers as a group too, they are a good target audience for your game. I know several people from my old DAoC guild who mainly socialize/explore/craft and don't care too much about combat (even though they played DAoC for years, hehe - then again we had a good guild community, so they were having fun socializing). Your game would fit the bill really well.

 

There is also the casuals who mostly just play for short bursts at a time, not sure how well you could cater to them. Too early to tell. 

 

Btw the auto-grouping you mentioned in a post is something I like. I always enjoyed public quest implementations, and that is what you would kinda have in the adventure areas. 

Do you plan to form big raid style groups in an area with everyone in it, or split players up into normal sized groups?

 

I agree on old-style trinity being fun. Some of my fondest memories are from things like being main CC as minstrel in vanilla DAoC or my enchanter in EQ back in the Kunark days. Never a dull moment. :p

I am also not a fan of brute force DPS style PvE.

 

The mind projection fallacy is the assumption that our subjective judgments (or lack thereof) reflect intrinsic qualities of objects or reality in general.

  Nevulus

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/23/06
Posts: 1213

1/24/14 3:16:52 PM#22

What language are you developing this in?

I have more questions to follow depending on which language you will be utilizing.

  RealmLordsKen

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/09/08
Posts: 272

 
OP  1/24/14 4:01:11 PM#23
Originally posted by Nevulus

What language are you developing this in?

I have more questions to follow depending on which language you will be utilizing.

 

The underlying engine is TGEA, a DX9c rewrite of TGE based on the Tribes 2 engine from the late 90s.  It's C++ with a tiny bit of assembler.

TGEA primarily supports FPS game development.  A developer wrote an MMORPG framework in Python that TGEA snaps into as a 3D rendering library and simulation server.

So to answer, C++ (simulation and 3D), Python for database and all the MMO functionality.

 

If I just uttered incomprehensible gibberish, assume that I'm tweaking. It happens.

  RealmLordsKen

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/09/08
Posts: 272

 
OP  1/24/14 4:12:07 PM#24
Originally posted by Gaendric

 

Do you plan to form big raid style groups in an area with everyone in it, or split players up into normal sized groups?

 

Neither.  What I'm thinking about is dynamic automatic grouping by proximity.  The system has to be smart because mission areas are not private instances.

 

Your group is 3/4 through the dungeon, a new group comes in.  Your group kills "Big Momma Snake".  Those new group people are not close enough to be auto-selected for loot, coin and quest-drop sharing.  Those who are physically close to the killer DO get the drop.

 

It does open an exploit where a player-character can ghost a party, leeching as they follow.  If they're with you, they better be helping or personally I'd consider it a reportable offense.  Any ideas on how this can be resolved?

 

Have everyone feign and then laugh as the guy gets aggro stomped?  Hehe  :-)

 

If I just uttered incomprehensible gibberish, assume that I'm tweaking. It happens.

  Gaendric

Novice Member

Joined: 4/20/04
Posts: 279

1/24/14 4:35:10 PM#25
Originally posted by RealmLordsKen
Originally posted by Gaendric

 

Do you plan to form big raid style groups in an area with everyone in it, or split players up into normal sized groups?

 

Neither.  What I'm thinking about is dynamic automatic grouping by proximity.  The system has to be smart because mission areas are not private instances.

 

Your group is 3/4 through the dungeon, a new group comes in.  Your group kills "Big Momma Snake".  Those new group people are not close enough to be auto-selected for loot, coin and quest-drop sharing.  Those who are physically close to the killer DO get the drop.

 

It does open an exploit where a player-character can ghost a party, leeching as they follow.  If they're with you, they better be helping or personally I'd consider it a reportable offense.  Any ideas on how this can be resolved?

 

Have everyone feign and then laugh as the guy gets aggro stomped?  Hehe  :-)

 

Haha I like the feign solution.

Systems-wise, the looting system could just exclude players who haven't actually contributed enough to the fight. (be it damage, heals, CC, debuffs, buffs, etc. You could track all these values for a fight (fight eventually meaning multi-mob encounters)) 

 

 

The mind projection fallacy is the assumption that our subjective judgments (or lack thereof) reflect intrinsic qualities of objects or reality in general.

  Gaendric

Novice Member

Joined: 4/20/04
Posts: 279

1/24/14 4:38:29 PM#26
Originally posted by RealmLordsKen

The underlying engine is TGEA, a DX9c rewrite of TGE based on the Tribes 2 engine from the late 90s.  It's C++ with a tiny bit of assembler.

TGEA primarily supports FPS game development.  A developer wrote an MMORPG framework in Python that TGEA snaps into as a 3D rendering library and simulation server.

So to answer, C++ (simulation and 3D), Python for database and all the MMO functionality.

 

Ah cool. I used TGE and then TGEA for a while back then. Was more of a love-hate relationship lol.

 

The mind projection fallacy is the assumption that our subjective judgments (or lack thereof) reflect intrinsic qualities of objects or reality in general.

  RealmLordsKen

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/09/08
Posts: 272

 
OP  1/24/14 5:07:05 PM#27
Originally posted by Gaendric

Ah cool. I used TGE and then TGEA for a while back then. Was more of a love-hate relationship lol.

 

Love hate indeed.  Great engine, lots of oddball bugs, half-tested, limited documentation (at least back then).  You don't need to tell me.

 

EDIT: Tested TSE 103, ugh.  Nowhere near as fast as I remember.  Must have been thinking of something else.

 

If I just uttered incomprehensible gibberish, assume that I'm tweaking. It happens.

  ArChWind

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/19/11
Posts: 489

1/25/14 6:37:29 AM#28
Originally posted by RealmLordsKen
Originally posted by Gaendric

Ah cool. I used TGE and then TGEA for a while back then. Was more of a love-hate relationship lol.

 

Love hate indeed.  Great engine, lots of oddball bugs, half-tested, limited documentation (at least back then).  You don't need to tell me.

 

EDIT: Tested TSE 103, ugh.  Nowhere near as fast as I remember.  Must have been thinking of something else.

 

I'm trying to picture which release you're talking about here. Is this TGEA 1.0 or an older one?

  RealmLordsKen

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/09/08
Posts: 272

 
OP  1/25/14 9:36:58 AM#29

Yes, it's TGEA.  When TGEA first started it was called TSE (Torque Shader Engine), then they changed the name.  Funny, for a while it was also called TAT (Torque Advanced Technology) but that name only lasted about 30 minutes.  :-)

 

The MMOWorkshop devs did a kit with TSE.  I was thinking it was fast rendering, but I tried the stock Torque last night and on this machine (old AMD 2ghz single core, GeForce 6600) it only got 30 fps in the demo scene.  Way too slow to be useful.

 

If I just uttered incomprehensible gibberish, assume that I'm tweaking. It happens.

  ArChWind

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/19/11
Posts: 489

1/25/14 10:54:15 AM#30


Originally posted by RealmLordsKen Yes, it's TGEA.  When TGEA first started it was called TSE (Torque Shader Engine), then they changed the name.  Funny, for a while it was also called TAT (Torque Advanced Technology) but that name only lasted about 30 minutes.  :-)

  The MMOWorkshop devs did a kit with TSE.  I was thinking it was fast rendering, but I tried the stock Torque last night and on this machine (old AMD 2ghz single core, GeForce 6600) it only got 30 fps in the demo scene.  Way too slow to be useful.  


 
Yeah,I remember that engine. I complied the source and gave it test run. I have it on my hard drive but it’s archived because can’t perform like I want it to. The FPS is very low when I start adding these terrains and high poly models.

If you remember I use to do a lot of engines on the old board. TGEA is a great engine It just doesn’t have the optimized multi-threading to do massive scenes. It runs great with simple textures and low poly assets so if you use it the poly count and vertices count is something you really need to watch.

I went off to several other engines and have settled on BW but it is now unsupported by the company. You can still buy it and use it but it does not have all the bells and whistles of HE. BUT, HE can’t do a gridded out world in 1000 x 1000 KM LOL. If that’s not big enough then you can always mosaic the worlds in code. Seriously a 20 KM zone is bigger than Morrowwind, Oblivion and Skyrim combined and slightly smaller than Darkfall. I can build a commercial application but still have to pay 10% royalties. I am not really concerned with that since it probably be a cold day in hell if I sold anything which brings me to the point.

If you just hobby and want a great engine with some real punch you may want BW. It can cluster to just amazing number of CCU if you ever decide to do that. If you know what you’re doing you can overlay a huge world with multiple cell servers. Don’t be fooled by others that say ‘it’s just a modifiable demo’. You can do anything within reason but you need some intricate knowledge of programming to use it which you probably fit that pretty well. It’s more of most users just don’t have the skill set to put it to use. It’s is not a normal vertices engine either but more of a pixel engine. You can throw 1,000,000 vertices at it and still get great FPS. It’s when you start throwing complex pixel textures that it that it starts dogging out. The batching makes it just mind blowing and the graphics are really good with DX9. It’s not DX10 which turns off some but then it’s a commercial product optimized for network games. The one thing about BW is that it is Python so it is easy to program.

I drove it hard on models as a test. It dropped through the floor (5 FPS) on 266 (unique 18K poly trees) in one chunk and 24 land textures on my shitty 3300 . It crashed on 267 LOL. That’s a LOT of draw calls btw. That’s 300 textures and almost 5 million vertices. Way more than any engine has taken in the past.

Unity starts suffering early when I throw a lot of models at it around 100 unique trees. Esenthel has similar results but both these engines can’t even compare to the network scalability of BW. If you don’t mind small areas and don’t want to have a massive OW then Hero is also a great engine it just can’t do what I want it to do because of the way it deals with seamless linking.

Not trying to sell it to you Just saying,

  Gaendric

Novice Member

Joined: 4/20/04
Posts: 279

1/25/14 2:19:15 PM#31

Thanks for the info on BW, ArChWind, I haven't tried it yet.

 

The problem I mostly have with those MMO engines is that they are just "indie" labeled  versions of engines made for big teams, and that shows.

They are just simply not made with the lonewolf and hobbyist in mind. An engine for that target audience would be set up differently.

Like you said, most users won't be able to put them to good use in their current form.

Simply because you'd have to be a multi-talented superhero, being a very good programmer, a very good game-designer (this part is mandatory) and a very good artist (this can be somewhat solved by buying assets and hiring contractors, but still.. without a really good artist/designer being in charge of the overall look&feel over the entire dev cycle you'll not achieve top quality).

Kinda shows why MMOs are mostly a team affair.

The good thing is there are always exceptions to the rule.

 

From personal experience I can say Unity is quite flexible (I use it for a lot of work projects) and aimed more at us lonely types, with several MMO backend solutions being available in the store, but indeed  has several issues if you are going for a "big world" setup. It's just not optimized for this type of gameworld. Needs a ton of workarounds.

The upside being the store with a ton of useful addons and assets ofcourse.

 

Leaves you with rolling some own solution based on a non MMO-specific engine (like Ken does).

Wish I had the time. :(

 

The mind projection fallacy is the assumption that our subjective judgments (or lack thereof) reflect intrinsic qualities of objects or reality in general.

  RealmLordsKen

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/09/08
Posts: 272

 
OP  1/25/14 3:21:28 PM#32
Originally posted by Gaendric
 

Leaves you with rolling some own solution based on a non MMO-specific engine (like Ken does).

Wish I had the time. :(

 

For clarification, my solution is based on middleware.  No way am I skilled enough to have rolled this on my own.

 

Back in 2003-2005, a team rolled an EQ clone framework based on Torque and made their own MMORPG with it.  That was Minions of Mirth.  Around 2007 the team chainsawed their content out of the game, making the framework available as 'Torque MMO Kit' for other developers to create games with.  They also licensed character and mob art, in ready to use form.

 

Volunteer developers contributed to the project for a couple years, but over time it faded out.  There might be 2 or 3 (myself included) who are still working with the kit.  Most gave up or went to other solutions.

 

Time?  No doubt.  Easily the most labor intensive project I've ever touched.

 

disclaimed:  I'm not affiliated or endorsed by the developers of Minions of Mirth or the Torque MMO Kit.

 

...

 

BW tech does sound great, but I'm really stuck in Torque.  Part of my goal is to recoup losses by doing something productive with all this time I've spent with the kit.  Starting fresh with a new engine wouldn't resolve that.

 

If I just uttered incomprehensible gibberish, assume that I'm tweaking. It happens.

  ArChWind

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/19/11
Posts: 489

1/25/14 6:54:35 PM#33
Originally posted by RealmLordsKen
Originally posted by Gaendric
 

Leaves you with rolling some own solution based on a non MMO-specific engine (like Ken does).

Wish I had the time. :(

 

For clarification, my solution is based on middleware.  No way am I skilled enough to have rolled this on my own.

 

Back in 2003-2005, a team rolled an EQ clone framework based on Torque and made their own MMORPG with it.  That was Minions of Mirth.  Around 2007 the team chainsawed their content out of the game, making the framework available as 'Torque MMO Kit' for other developers to create games with.  They also licensed character and mob art, in ready to use form.

 

Volunteer developers contributed to the project for a couple years, but over time it faded out.  There might be 2 or 3 (myself included) who are still working with the kit.  Most gave up or went to other solutions.

 

Time?  No doubt.  Easily the most labor intensive project I've ever touched.

 

disclaimed:  I'm not affiliated or endorsed by the developers of Minions of Mirth or the Torque MMO Kit.

 

...

 

BW tech does sound great, but I'm really stuck in Torque.  Part of my goal is to recoup losses by doing something productive with all this time I've spent with the kit.  Starting fresh with a new engine wouldn't resolve that.

 

Ok well that answered my PM. :)

  ArChWind

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/19/11
Posts: 489

1/25/14 7:23:14 PM#34
Originally posted by Gaendric

Thanks for the info on BW, ArChWind, I haven't tried it yet.

 

 

Simply because you'd have to be a multi-talented superhero, being a very good programmer, a very good game-designer (this part is mandatory) and a very good artist (this can be somewhat solved by buying assets and hiring contractors, but still.. without a really good artist/designer being in charge of the overall look&feel over the entire dev cycle you'll not achieve top quality).

Kinda shows why MMOs are mostly a team affair.

The good thing is there are always exceptions to the rule.

 

 

You're welcome.

 

And then some of us are just plain crazy.

  RealmLordsKen

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/09/08
Posts: 272

 
OP  1/25/14 10:26:38 PM#35
Originally posted by ArChWind
Originally posted by RealmLordsKen
 

BW tech does sound great, but I'm really stuck in Torque.  Part of my goal is to recoup losses by doing something productive with all this time I've spent with the kit.  Starting fresh with a new engine wouldn't resolve that.

Ok well that answered my PM. :)

 

I wouldn't write off my curiosity, just because I'm stuck in Torque.  I looked into BWT license and I have questions about how the annual renewal system works.  I'd love to see the engine's potential.  Also the art pipeline.  I'm wondering if it would be possible to convert the DTS art I have licensed (some PG, some other vendors) to be compatible.  That art, and stuff I do myself in Quark is most of what I use in game.

 

btw, Pardon the delay in PM reply, I'm having a bitch of a bad day (not related to game work).

 

If I just uttered incomprehensible gibberish, assume that I'm tweaking. It happens.

  RealmLordsKen

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/09/08
Posts: 272

 
OP  1/25/14 10:30:29 PM#36
Originally posted by Gaendric

[...], a very good game-designer (this part is mandatory) 

 

This part is incredibly tough.  What is fun?  Why are some things fun for some people and despised by others?  How are different facets of design created in a way that they fit together rather than just being a contradictory mish-mash of unrelated ideas?

 

I came into this thinking that side of things would be trivial, and found exactly the opposite to be true.

 

If I just uttered incomprehensible gibberish, assume that I'm tweaking. It happens.

  MMOman101

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/05/08
Posts: 1201

1/26/14 1:12:55 AM#37

I wish you luck.

 

I did some beta testing of your first game.  I hope you are able to find the time and effort to complete this one. 

 

Good luck.

  ArChWind

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/19/11
Posts: 489

1/26/14 1:35:46 AM#38
Originally posted by RealmLordsKen
Originally posted by ArChWind
Originally posted by RealmLordsKen
 

BW tech does sound great, but I'm really stuck in Torque.  Part of my goal is to recoup losses by doing something productive with all this time I've spent with the kit.  Starting fresh with a new engine wouldn't resolve that.

Ok well that answered my PM. :)

 

I wouldn't write off my curiosity, just because I'm stuck in Torque.  I looked into BWT license and I have questions about how the annual renewal system works.  I'd love to see the engine's potential.  Also the art pipeline.  I'm wondering if it would be possible to convert the DTS art I have licensed (some PG, some other vendors) to be compatible.  That art, and stuff I do myself in Quark is most of what I use in game.

 

btw, Pardon the delay in PM reply, I'm having a bitch of a bad day (not related to game work).

 

DTS  to Blender? I think there is a converter although you may find new models that have higher poly count better.

There is no license renewal anymore.

Buy once, get updates forever. BUT!

Since War Gamming bought the engine for 40 million, BWT no longer owns it they work for War Gamming.

However the units sold are still able to make games under the agreement. It's a legal binding contract. The indie site hasn't been updated since 1.9 so it still says 1.9 which was 2 years ago. Last post on the board was announcement of 2.1 shortly before the engine was sold and is the release I purchased.

Therefore, the latest is 2.1 and probably the last release. In 2.1 they added MySQL and fix some annoying bugs in the engine which I ranted on in the old forums about.

They say they are working on a new one but I have serious doubts.

If you buy it you are on your own as stated in the agreement. Zero BWT support only the forums.

 

  RealmLordsKen

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/09/08
Posts: 272

 
OP  1/26/14 2:49:20 AM#39
Originally posted by ArChWind
 

DTS  to Blender? I think there is a converter although you may find new models that have higher poly count better.

There is no license renewal anymore.

...

If you buy it you are on your own as stated in the agreement. Zero BWT support only the forums.

 

I think I have milkshape 3D originals of the models.  What model format is native?  I should be able to find a path to convert out from MS3D.

No renewal is news to me.  Good news even.

Zero support is no biggy.  After MMO Kit I'm used to it.  RTFM and figure it out.

 

Cool info thanks!

 

If I just uttered incomprehensible gibberish, assume that I'm tweaking. It happens.

  Gaendric

Novice Member

Joined: 4/20/04
Posts: 279

1/26/14 3:44:20 AM#40
Originally posted by RealmLordsKen
Originally posted by Gaendric

[...], a very good game-designer (this part is mandatory) 

 

This part is incredibly tough.  What is fun?  Why are some things fun for some people and despised by others?  How are different facets of design created in a way that they fit together rather than just being a contradictory mish-mash of unrelated ideas?

 

I came into this thinking that side of things would be trivial, and found exactly the opposite to be true.

 

I totally agree, it's arguably the toughest part to get right. 

I also agree it's a vastly underrated skill. 

People often don't realize how much knowledge, training and practice is involved in getting to the level needed for a decent MMO with it's one bajeelion sub-systems that all have to work together cohesively while providing challenge&fun to a broad variety of players.

 

The mind projection fallacy is the assumption that our subjective judgments (or lack thereof) reflect intrinsic qualities of objects or reality in general.

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