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348 posts found
  Nephaerius

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/18/09
Posts: 1470

1/17/14 1:29:12 PM#301
Originally posted by simplius
Originally posted by CazNeerg
Originally posted by bobdole1979
 

There are tons of True F2P games with out subs.  The money comes from cash shops.  LoL, TF2, Dota 2,  Maplestory and so on are all true F2P games.  

Sounds like a list supporting my theory that if a game is quality, it offers a sub in addition to a free option, not just a free option. ;)

that would make those games the ones, without quality

LoL is one of mmos big cashcows

surprising, that a shit game has so many fans, huh?

 Are you deluded?  35 million people play LoL.  It's the largest played game in the world. It's a shit game. Logic. It must suck to be alone.

Twitter: @Nephaerius
Steam: Neph
Xbox 360 GT: Nephaerius

  ignore_me

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/11
Posts: 2034

1/17/14 1:35:12 PM#302
Originally posted by Nephaerius
Originally posted by simplius
Originally posted by CazNeerg
Originally posted by bobdole1979
 

There are tons of True F2P games with out subs.  The money comes from cash shops.  LoL, TF2, Dota 2,  Maplestory and so on are all true F2P games.  

Sounds like a list supporting my theory that if a game is quality, it offers a sub in addition to a free option, not just a free option. ;)

that would make those games the ones, without quality

LoL is one of mmos big cashcows

surprising, that a shit game has so many fans, huh?

 Are you deluded?  35 million people play LoL.  It's the largest played game in the world. It's a shit game. Logic. It must suck to be alone.

So he can't state his opinion that it is a shit game? I think LOL is shit too, so he isn't alone.

Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  simplius

Novice Member

Joined: 12/12/12
Posts: 979

1/17/14 9:35:44 PM#303
Originally posted by bobdole1979
Originally posted by simplius
Originally posted by bobdole1979
Originally posted by simplius

a "true" F2P  game ,without subs? where would the Money come from?

that game would be the perpetuum mobile.. i would like to play it

freemium opens the gate , for any kind on monetization, so they can get more Money from the same game

BTW, why didnt SWG go freemium? and warhammer online?

SWG did essententially go freemium with the Sony Station Pass

Warhammer Online didnt go because what happened was they were given a budget to make the game F2P but the game director saw the success of LoL and other MOBAs so he used those funds to create Warhammer Wrath of Heroes.  

Wrath of Heroes failed and the game was shut down.

 

There are tons of True F2P games with out subs.  The money comes from cash shops.  LoL, TF2, Dota 2,  Maplestory and so on are all true F2P games.  

no..they are CC driven games..somebody is stil opening their wallets

just because you Arent paying, doesnt mean, that nobody is paying

i guess you missed school that year

rofl wait are you suggesting a game that is completely free that gets 0 revenue from any source?? ROFL

it would have to, in order , to be a truly FREE game, wouldnt it?

if not, then its CC driven...NOT free

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10701

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

1/17/14 9:37:25 PM#304
Originally posted by simplius
Originally posted by bobdole1979
Originally posted by simplius
Originally posted by bobdole1979
Originally posted by simplius

a "true" F2P  game ,without subs? where would the Money come from?

that game would be the perpetuum mobile.. i would like to play it

freemium opens the gate , for any kind on monetization, so they can get more Money from the same game

BTW, why didnt SWG go freemium? and warhammer online?

SWG did essententially go freemium with the Sony Station Pass

Warhammer Online didnt go because what happened was they were given a budget to make the game F2P but the game director saw the success of LoL and other MOBAs so he used those funds to create Warhammer Wrath of Heroes.  

Wrath of Heroes failed and the game was shut down.

 

There are tons of True F2P games with out subs.  The money comes from cash shops.  LoL, TF2, Dota 2,  Maplestory and so on are all true F2P games.  

no..they are CC driven games..somebody is stil opening their wallets

just because you Arent paying, doesnt mean, that nobody is paying

i guess you missed school that year

rofl wait are you suggesting a game that is completely free that gets 0 revenue from any source?? ROFL

it would have to, in order , to be a truly FREE game, wouldnt it?

if not, then its CC driven...NOT free

I suppose it's a good thing we have all these F2P games so that they can generate revenue and keep running. 

 

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  simplius

Novice Member

Joined: 12/12/12
Posts: 979

1/17/14 9:38:37 PM#305
Originally posted by Nephaerius
Originally posted by simplius
Originally posted by CazNeerg
Originally posted by bobdole1979
 

There are tons of True F2P games with out subs.  The money comes from cash shops.  LoL, TF2, Dota 2,  Maplestory and so on are all true F2P games.  

Sounds like a list supporting my theory that if a game is quality, it offers a sub in addition to a free option, not just a free option. ;)

that would make those games the ones, without quality

LoL is one of mmos big cashcows

surprising, that a shit game has so many fans, huh?

 Are you deluded?  35 million people play LoL.  It's the largest played game in the world. It's a shit game. Logic. It must suck to be alone.

it was sarcasm, i can see LoLs quality, although i didnt like it personally

according to cazneerg, LoL is a low quality game, because it doesnt offer the option to sub

that was my point

PS 35 mio PLAYERS? yea , right

  CazNeerg

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

1/17/14 10:17:10 PM#306
Originally posted by simplius
 

it was sarcasm, i can see LoLs quality, although i didnt like it personally

according to cazneerg, LoL is a low quality game, because it doesnt offer the option to sub

that was my point

PS 35 mio PLAYERS? yea , right

Apparently none of you noticed the ;)

I was mostly making a point about how quality is a subjective measure, unlike success which can be objectively measured.  I can recognize that a game can provide a quality experience for someone else while still providing a crappy experience for me, and vice versa.  The elements of games which I actually care about are ones which games that don't offer a sub option consistently do a poor job of implementing, when they try to implement them at all.  So no matter how good a job they do on what they do focus on, for my taste they still end up being unappealing products.

Hell, I would play STO or LotRO before I would touch LoL.  I would even play WoW before I touched that.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

  simplius

Novice Member

Joined: 12/12/12
Posts: 979

1/17/14 10:40:20 PM#307
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by simplius
Originally posted by bobdole1979
Originally posted by simplius
Originally posted by bobdole1979
Originally posted by simplius

a "true" F2P  game ,without subs? where would the Money come from?

that game would be the perpetuum mobile.. i would like to play it

freemium opens the gate , for any kind on monetization, so they can get more Money from the same game

BTW, why didnt SWG go freemium? and warhammer online?

SWG did essententially go freemium with the Sony Station Pass

Warhammer Online didnt go because what happened was they were given a budget to make the game F2P but the game director saw the success of LoL and other MOBAs so he used those funds to create Warhammer Wrath of Heroes.  

Wrath of Heroes failed and the game was shut down.

 

There are tons of True F2P games with out subs.  The money comes from cash shops.  LoL, TF2, Dota 2,  Maplestory and so on are all true F2P games.  

no..they are CC driven games..somebody is stil opening their wallets

just because you Arent paying, doesnt mean, that nobody is paying

i guess you missed school that year

rofl wait are you suggesting a game that is completely free that gets 0 revenue from any source?? ROFL

it would have to, in order , to be a truly FREE game, wouldnt it?

if not, then its CC driven...NOT free

I suppose it's a good thing we have all these F2P games so that they can generate revenue and keep running. 

 

heh,,apparently, its a good idea , to reduce the Price by 100%

its a crazy world

  gervaise1

Elite Member

Joined: 1/17/07
Posts: 1309

1/18/14 7:44:18 AM#308

Strictly speaking a F2P game can be Free-to-Buy or Buy-to-Play. 100% reduction though - yeah - probably a simple recognition on EA's part that SWTOR was stalled and the F2P would go nowhere without new account signups.

I think when Bobsole1997 talks about "True F2P" games however he is talking about games that are designed as F2P from the ground up rather than F2P conversions like SWTOR. And to date F2P conversions tend not to compare well against true F2P games.

Micro-transactions are really something that need to be built in from day 1 - both from a getting the player to pay and in avoiding the feeling of restraint that conversions tend to have. Gamasutra and other sites have run several articles by F2P designers - along with some by Gabe Newell. 

For example sub based games have historically tended to introduce grind. Things to slow you down or simply burn time. Reputation grinds, slow crafting, slow travel - boats in EQ1 were every 15 minutes I seem to recall and the trip itself wasn't fast. rare drops etc. There was a backlash and games speeded up. And speeded up. As Olsen and others said they didn't get the 3-4 months they (foolishly) expected to add new content; they very quickly had the bulk of the players at max level. Not good for a sub based game; maybe if they had taken notice of what was being said pre-launch people might still have had to buy SWTOR.

  CazNeerg

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

1/18/14 8:32:30 AM#309
Originally posted by gervaise1

Strictly speaking a F2P game can be Free-to-Buy or Buy-to-Play. 100% reduction though - yeah - probably a simple recognition on EA's part that SWTOR was stalled and the F2P would go nowhere without new account signups.

I think when Bobsole1997 talks about "True F2P" games however he is talking about games that are designed as F2P from the ground up rather than F2P conversions like SWTOR. And to date F2P conversions tend not to compare well against true F2P games.

Micro-transactions are really something that need to be built in from day 1 - both from a getting the player to pay and in avoiding the feeling of restraint that conversions tend to have. Gamasutra and other sites have run several articles by F2P designers - along with some by Gabe Newell. 

For example sub based games have historically tended to introduce grind. Things to slow you down or simply burn time. Reputation grinds, slow crafting, slow travel - boats in EQ1 were every 15 minutes I seem to recall and the trip itself wasn't fast. rare drops etc. There was a backlash and games speeded up. And speeded up. As Olsen and others said they didn't get the 3-4 months they (foolishly) expected to add new content; they very quickly had the bulk of the players at max level. Not good for a sub based game; maybe if they had taken notice of what was being said pre-launch people might still have had to buy SWTOR.

I think when people say "true" F2P they are referring to games that don't offer a sub (and never have).  LotRO, DDO, EQ2, TOR, these are hybrids, not "true" F2P, because the free option in each is really just an extended kind of free trial.

And I really don't know where you are coming up with this thing about conversions not comparing well.  Most of the games that convert end up being very successful products. And the TOR devs could have listened all you  wanted pre-launch, but all themeparks run out of content, and it was never going to not be a themepark.  And when your content has a cinematic style with full voice, it takes even longer to develop.  The only way they could have been substantially faster is by delivering something that wasn't a BioWare style game, and it being a BioWare style game is the primary reason (other than the addition of the free option) it still has the million players a month it does have.

Moving to a hybrid model isn't a sign of a developer doing anything wrong.  It is the new normal for games once players start finishing the initial content offering.  If it doesn't happen to Wildstar and ESO as well, I will be shocked, and I expect those both to be very successful.

One last thing; the TOR dev is Ohlen, not Olsen.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

  simplius

Novice Member

Joined: 12/12/12
Posts: 979

1/18/14 8:50:44 AM#310

i would put it this way: the best games dont have to change business model

they Work fine, as is, and why fix something, that isnt broken?

and, they dont have to lure in customers , using big FREE signs

people will gladly pay a fixed monthly fee , if they have faith in the product

  TeknoBug

Novice Member

Joined: 10/13/07
Posts: 2166

1/18/14 10:10:56 AM#311

Last time I logged in I had a pile of cartel coins (security key helps), but man just about everything costs cartel, enabling your character's title, hiding helmet slot, expanding bank, blahblahblah. May just as well charge us for breathing air too.


  TeknoBug

Novice Member

Joined: 10/13/07
Posts: 2166

1/18/14 10:16:24 AM#312


Originally posted by bobdole1979
SWG did essententially go freemium with the Sony Station Pass


What? I don't remember SWG going freemium, I remember that if you had a recurring sub before Sept 1st you were able to play sWG without having to pay anymore up until it shut down, I didn't have a recurring sub at the time and wasn't able to log in after Sept 1.


In Feb, SOE is getting rid of the $14.95/mo to individual games and changing it to Station Pass for $14.95/mo access to all games. Planetside 2 and DCUO are the only 2 games I think are worth bothering with anyways, Vanguard is terrible and EQ2 is bland but I will check out EQ:Next when it comes out since it'll be using the Forgelight engine that PS2 uses.


  CazNeerg

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

1/18/14 12:17:28 PM#313
Originally posted by simplius

i would put it this way: the best games dont have to change business model

they Work fine, as is, and why fix something, that isnt broken?

and, they dont have to lure in customers , using big FREE signs

people will gladly pay a fixed monthly fee , if they have faith in the product

"Best" is a worthless word, because it's completely subjective.  Ask ten different people what the best MMO they have ever played is, and there is a decent chance you get ten different answers.

As for your argument about the relationship between quality and a sub, we established a long time ago from the synthesis of your posts that the only game that could even theoretically be considered "good" would be WoW.  I think everybody gets that you are a big ole troll at this point.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

  Winterizer

Novice Member

Joined: 5/25/04
Posts: 67

1/18/14 12:21:53 PM#314

Problem with free to play?

Simple solution, sub to the game and enjoy

It is not more then a couple of beers worth anyway

  bobdole1979

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/05/09
Posts: 218

1/18/14 3:28:06 PM#315
Originally posted by simplius

i would put it this way: the best games dont have to change business model

they Work fine, as is, and why fix something, that isnt broken?

and, they dont have to lure in customers , using big FREE signs

people will gladly pay a fixed monthly fee , if they have faith in the product

Then why did TF2 go F2P?

Why is WoW changing its business model? 

 

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10701

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

1/18/14 5:22:38 PM#316
Originally posted by simplius

i would put it this way: the best games dont have to change business model

they Work fine, as is, and why fix something, that isnt broken?

and, they dont have to lure in customers , using big FREE signs

people will gladly pay a fixed monthly fee , if they have faith in the product

I know this is a waste of time, but what evidence do you have that a fixed monthly fee is always the best fit for a "good" game, throughout the lifetime of the game?  I'm not aware of any general model that applies to all games equally.

 

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  DamonVile

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4875

1/18/14 5:41:14 PM#317
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by simplius

i would put it this way: the best games dont have to change business model

they Work fine, as is, and why fix something, that isnt broken?

and, they dont have to lure in customers , using big FREE signs

people will gladly pay a fixed monthly fee , if they have faith in the product

I know this is a waste of time, but what evidence do you have that a fixed monthly fee is always the best fit for a "good" game, throughout the lifetime of the game?  I'm not aware of any general model that applies to all games equally.

 

I wonder what he has to say about wow adding a cash shop. Their business model has been evolving ( IE changing ) for years. They've also been running ADs saying play warcraft for FREE!!! ( to lvl 20 )  for a long time...but then I wouldn't put it past someone here to say the largest most successful mmo isn't among the best mmos.

  saker

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/11/04
Posts: 905

Make a WORLD,
Not a Game.

1/18/14 5:51:42 PM#318

the cult of infinite greed is the way in merica today, there should be no surprise in this.

  dwarfus

Novice Member

Joined: 1/30/11
Posts: 88

1/18/14 6:34:48 PM#319
Originally posted by Robokapp

EA's approach:

 

This game is free to play. The buttons are locked but you're free to play. Don't like it? buy it.

 

My approach:

 

Don't like it? Uninstall it.

 

I win. They lose.

What exactly are they losing? Your willingness to spend $5? 

I think others are right. This F2P mentality has gone overboard. It's freaking $15 a month! That's like one hour of working at the majority of jobs.

But there's countless of people who will spend 8 hours a day on a game and expect every aspect of it to be free.

  trash656

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/18/05
Posts: 378

It is easier to Fight for Principles then it is to Live up to them.

1/19/14 2:35:34 AM#320
All that stuff you hear in Interviews and Game trailers is all PR Bullsh**. Every game developer says they love their subscribers but it's like real life. Actions speak louder then words. Wake up and Lets get back to reality here. If you want to continue buying EA/Bioware products and feeling ripped off then the developers will continue Ripping gamers off and laughing all the way to the bank. F2P is a lot like the Government, because it's only good if it's handled properly in a moderate manner were the customers are respected by the developers and company when they don't have to feel like they are being continually milked like they are in SWTOR. SWTOR is a descent game, but the Companys EA/Bioware who run it really have Respect for their subscribers at all, or the Starwars game itself, but just use it to Make millions each year. EQ2 has a fair and descent cashshop system and so does most other F2P Games because when you subscribe there is no unlocking too do. Everything in EQ2 for instance the SC Market Place is all Cosmetic you don't have to buy anything out of it at all, Plus they give you 5 free packs of cards that reward you with free loot and includes 500 SC cash. the Cartel Market used to reward players in the beginning with 1 Cartel Pack Free and 600 Cartel Coins. But they got cheap and greedy, so Now they just Give you 500 Cartel Coins a Month and no Cartel Pack. Yeah your not getting ripped off right? Wrong.

 

Cheers

-Trash

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