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Elder Scrolls Online

Elder Scrolls Online 

General Discussion  » ESO - the mmo that is currently cool to hate

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110 posts found
  MacroPlanet

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/18/05
Posts: 1038

Astronomy, art, games, and a cup of coffee.

1/12/14 5:50:06 PM#21

I've been in this genre for too long and in more than a handful of betas and they all play out the same.  Once all of the negative feedback start coming out when beta starts; it usually is a sign that the game is not what it is cracked up to be.

 

I've seen it happen to Shadowbane, to Vanguard, to Age of Conan and FFXIV (1.0), etc...

 

Without saying too much; TESO is a mmorpg that is out to sell boxes, not subscriptions.

Best MMORPG:
Ultima Online
EVE Online
World of Warcraft
DayZ

  Inktomi

Highlighted Blogger

Joined: 3/25/09
Posts: 665

Give me sparkly, twinkly...

1/12/14 5:57:58 PM#22

I'm not saying a word as I am still under NDA and in the latest closed beta. But will I will say is that if they put that money (supposedly 200 million dorrahs) into Elder Scrolls VI, it would have been incredible. 

I actually put it on my blog that ESO would be a great game and I am prepared to eat my words.

 

  JJ82

Elite Member

Joined: 12/02/13
Posts: 1102

1/12/14 6:12:02 PM#23
Ahh, another "you cant have an opinion other than one that thinks the game is good" thread.

"People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  MikeB

MMORPG.com Community Manager

Joined: 5/27/09
Posts: 5470

1/12/14 6:13:33 PM#24
Guys, NDA is in effect. I've had to clean up a ton of stuff in this thread already. There is a sticky thread in this forum informing users not to violate NDA. Consider that sticky your warning. If you can't have this conversation without breaking NDA then I will have to go ahead and lock this thread.

Michael "MikeB" Bitton
Community Manager
Twitter: @eMikeB

  Jjix

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/16/12
Posts: 143

1/12/14 6:15:01 PM#25
Originally posted by thecapitaine

The ESO hate is just the latest example of how things go around here.  People have a vested interest in seeing certain games fail because it allows them the opportunity to point a finger and say, "See, I was right."  Take SWTOR.  Its performance was underwhelming and instead of it being seen as the result of a cascade failure of missing features, engine problems, poorly executed game mechanics, and a failure to address these problems quickly enough, the narrative becomes "Subs are fail" or "Themeparks suck."

 

ESO will be the same if it does poorly.  People are chomping at the bit to use it to declare the death of subs, themeparks, big IPs, casuals, instances, questing, large budgets, AvA pvp, console MMOs, dark elves, and you-name-it.

If ESO does well, I will accept the reality that the design philosophies behind it are far from dead. I won't pretend its success is due to something entirely unrelated to those design philosophies, like "smooth launch" or some nonsense.

Yet, on the other hand, if it fails, I will be glad that those design philosophies failed yet again. Will that stop fans of those philosophies from blaming its failure on bugs and engine problems? Will it stop them from beating up on themepark detractors as just "haters" who are trying to be cool? Will it stop them from claiming that the new generation of gamers are all that matter and they want themepark and that everyone else is an old fart? Will it stop them from insisting that the problem was that it wasn't themepark enough? Will it stop them from insisting it was a success even when it wasn't?! Will it stop them from hating on the mmorpg.com community?!! No. Of course not.

But at least if it fails there is a chance that things will turn around from the themepark model. If it succeeds, that chance begins to evaporate. Of course, it should be possible for all types of games of all types of flavors to be made, for everyone to play the type of game they want to play. But the reality seems to be that the industry seeks stability and tried and tested formulas for AAA games. Thus it does become a bit political the manner of shape those formulas take, and the success or failure of each AAA game plays into that equation.

  -aLpHa-

Novice Member

Joined: 12/27/03
Posts: 864

1/12/14 6:21:40 PM#26


Originally posted by Jjix

Originally posted by thecapitaine The ESO hate is just the latest example of how things go around here.  People have a vested interest in seeing certain games fail because it allows them the opportunity to point a finger and say, "See, I was right."  Take SWTOR.  Its performance was underwhelming and instead of it being seen as the result of a cascade failure of missing features, engine problems, poorly executed game mechanics, and a failure to address these problems quickly enough, the narrative becomes "Subs are fail" or "Themeparks suck."   ESO will be the same if it does poorly.  People are chomping at the bit to use it to declare the death of subs, themeparks, big IPs, casuals, instances, questing, large budgets, AvA pvp, console MMOs, dark elves, and you-name-it.
If ESO does well, I will accept the reality that the design philosophies behind it are far from dead. I won't pretend its success is due to something entirely unrelated to those design philosophies, like "smooth launch" or some nonsense.

Yet, on the other hand, if it fails, I will be glad that those design philosophies failed yet again. Will that stop fans of those philosophies from blaming its failure on bugs and engine problems? Will it stop them from beating up on themepark detractors as just "haters" who are trying to be cool? Will it stop them from claiming that the new generation of gamers are all that matter and they want themepark and that everyone else is an old fart? Will it stop them from insisting that the problem was that it wasn't themepark enough? Will it stop them from insisting it was a success even when it wasn't?! Will it stop them from hating on the mmorpg.com community?!! No. Of course not.

But at least if it fails there is a chance that things will turn around from the themepark model. If it succeeds, that chance begins to evaporate. Of course, it should be possible for all types of games of all types of flavors to be made, for everyone to play the type of game they want to play. But the reality seems to be that the industry seeks stability and tried and tested formulas for AAA games. Thus it does become a bit political the manner of shape those formulas take, and the success or failure of each AAA game plays into that equation.


The only thing that it will show is that the developers weren't executing good enough (they fucked up).

The general concept won't die any time soon.

But of course you can blame it on whatever you wan't, it is your prerogative.

  Jjix

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/16/12
Posts: 143

1/12/14 6:24:25 PM#27
Originally posted by -aLpHa-

 


The only thing that it will show is that the developers weren't executing good enough (they fucked up).

The general concept won't die any time soon.

But of course you can blame it on whatever you wan't, it is your prerogative.

OK, let me ask you this:

If the design philosophy of a game doesn't matter, and the only thing that determines success is whether it was executed well . . . why is it that one particular design philosophy (themepark) has a virtual monopoly on AAA MMOs?

  Lord.Bachus

Elite Member

Joined: 5/14/07
Posts: 8873

I believe in life before death... So dont forget to enjoy it while you still can.

1/12/14 6:29:55 PM#28
Originally posted by MikeB
Guys, NDA is in effect. I've had to clean up a ton of stuff in this thread already. There is a sticky thread in this forum informing users not to violate NDA. Consider that sticky your warning. If you can't have this conversation without breaking NDA then I will have to go ahead and lock this thread.

Problem is that the droves of people that actually like the game dont want to break the NDA..  And i know dozens of those people

Either the website needs to remove everything that only smells like NDA ... and do it as fast as possible.  Or change their NDA pollicy, which is actually better for the game under NDA..

 

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  exile01

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/27/13
Posts: 174

1/12/14 6:33:40 PM#29
Its never about the hate- its about the way developers see players as dumb fools and dissapointment players feel.
  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7646

1/12/14 6:34:56 PM#30
Only people that will hate ESO are the PvE only people. PvPrs and PvE/PvP people will be just fine.
  Hatefull

Novice Member

Joined: 6/09/04
Posts: 764

Your tears make my gun work better.

1/12/14 6:35:59 PM#31


Originally posted by Iselin
Yup all the cool kids are doing it... and most are lying about one thing or another.... or posturing as being a TRUE TES fan or a true MMOer...which is just the usual cheap ploy to preemptively dismiss anyone who disagrees...

 

Bottom line though, who should actually give a shit? Are gamers that insecure that they won't play something unless several random anonymous posers give it their seal of approval?


That's it isn't it? Some times I wonder if people think they are getting paid to start crap on game forums. The doom and gloom prophets are the ones that crack me up the hardest. A game is not going to 'fail' just because you don't like it. No matter how mad you get.

If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  Purutzil

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 2909

The Critical Hit Pretzel!

1/12/14 6:36:56 PM#32

NDA. 

...but going with things not breaking NDA, typically games that have an NDA will generate that 'mistrust' in the developer, something that sadly in many case with strict NDA policies tend to come true. This means anyone 'exposing' aspects of the game will often times stick out for people to latch onto far quicker. With how the market is saturated as well as quite large disappointments we have recieved for years now (which btw, many are from our unrealistic expectations of a game) it just makes it far easier to be skeptical. The "Hype train" that has miss lead people has turned more into skeptic cynicism over games.  People will jump on things that are leaked and it can quickly grow into dislike over a game.

 

Look at the very early leaked details of ESO. It met with a brash outcry of dislike over the leaked footage which caused them to change the way combat works. Leaked content is very easy to stir a melting pot of disdain. Even if it might not be as bad as people make it out to be, it can be quickly be blown out of proportion and give a nice big red bullseye on the negative point of a game and as such cause such "Hate" to stew over the game. 

 

In the case of ESO, I would say wait for NDA to be dropped to see just how people take it.

  -aLpHa-

Novice Member

Joined: 12/27/03
Posts: 864

1/12/14 6:39:14 PM#33


Originally posted by Jjix

Originally posted by -aLpHa-  


The only thing that it will show is that the developers weren't executing good enough (they fucked up). The general concept won't die any time soon. But of course you can blame it on whatever you wan't, it is your prerogative.
OK, let me ask you this:

If the design philosophy of a game doesn't matter, and the only thing that determines success is whether it was executed well . . . why is it that one particular design philosophy (themepark) has a virtual monopoly on AAA MMOs?


I can't look into the head of the developers but my guess would be that they look at the annual reports from Activision Blizzard and want to recreate/a piece of the success that those big number symbolize.

Everyone wants a piece of that tasty pie and as long as that pie is so tasty, they wanna have a bite from it. The only thing that can change that is when the pie starts to smell funny and taste bitter or someone comes around with a better pie.

  Hatefull

Novice Member

Joined: 6/09/04
Posts: 764

Your tears make my gun work better.

1/12/14 6:40:52 PM#34


Originally posted by cnutemp

Originally posted by Iselin

Originally posted by cnutemp While there is a lot of un-necessary hate.  The majority of this stems from the clain that ESO is your typical quest hub grinder that brings nothing new to the table except 'better wvwvw than guild wars 2' which at this point is only a claim. (we wont know until the game is released).  Combine this will the 200+ million dollar development costs and this game seems an awful lot like swtor only to shoot for a segement of the gaming market that is already heavily saturated (quest hub grinders with dailies and raids) If the development costs were smaller you OR if it brought something new / appealed to a more non-saturated blend of mmo market share you would not see so many doomsday posts.
You take an outlandish opinion, mix in an unsubstantiated internet rumor, add a dash of cliche and a sprinkle of uneducated guessing an what do you get? Why a typical, mmorpg.com post of course.
200+ million dollar development costs

Say, what you want but the details in my post are the reason for all the hate true, the 200+ dollar cost is just a rumor, im not debating if its true or not im telling you why there are tons of doomsday posts.

 

brings nothing new to the table

I haven't been following ESO so I don't know fully what the game offers, again im just telling you what I see from the posts on this forum.  If I am wrong and the game does bring something new other than the IP, can you elaborate?

 

already heavily saturated

Are you saying there are not a lot of mmo's that already do quest hubs / raids dailies?  Because you would be wrong.

 


OMG you are defending a post where you admit you are just regurgitating BS you HEARD somewhere else? With not one shred of proof or an original thought?

Unbelievable. Actually, totally believable.


If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  Hatefull

Novice Member

Joined: 6/09/04
Posts: 764

Your tears make my gun work better.

1/12/14 6:46:11 PM#35


Originally posted by reeereee

Originally posted by cnutemp

Originally posted by Iselin

Originally posted by cnutemp While there is a lot of un-necessary hate.  The majority of this stems from the clain that ESO is your typical quest hub grinder that brings nothing new to the table except 'better wvwvw than guild wars 2' which at this point is only a claim. (we wont know until the game is released).  Combine this will the 200+ million dollar development costs and this game seems an awful lot like swtor only to shoot for a segement of the gaming market that is already heavily saturated (quest hub grinders with dailies and raids) If the development costs were smaller you OR if it brought something new / appealed to a more non-saturated blend of mmo market share you would not see so many doomsday posts.
You take an outlandish opinion, mix in an unsubstantiated internet rumor, add a dash of cliche and a sprinkle of uneducated guessing an what do you get? Why a typical, mmorpg.com post of course.
200+ million dollar development costs Say, what you want but the details in my post are the reason for all the hate true, the 200+ dollar cost is just a rumor, im not debating if its true or not im telling you why there are tons of doomsday posts.   brings nothing new to the table I haven't been following ESO so I don't know fully what the game offers, again im just telling you what I see from the posts on this forum.  If I am wrong and the game does bring something new other than the IP, can you elaborate?   already heavily saturated Are you saying there are not a lot of mmo's that already do quest hubs / raids dailies?  Because you would be wrong.  
While your technically correct, ESO has the advantage of the games that are releasing around it.  The only real AAA release of 2014 was FFXIV:ARR and the only other AAA mmo likely to manage to be released in 2014 is Wildstar.  Both of which are such pure unadulterated WoW clone that they make ESO look daring and innovative by comparison.

 

Perhaps if ESO had to go head to head with big budget games that were also bringing a lot of cool new ideas to the market they would be in trouble, but really, you're looking at 2016 for those. 



FFXIV - released in 2013. It is no where near anything remotely like WoW. There are several titles slated to be released this year (2014). Your 'facts' leave a lot to be desired.

If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  Rattenmann

Elite Member

Joined: 12/08/05
Posts: 360

1/12/14 6:47:09 PM#36

ESO would be a great game, if it was made by an Indie with like 5 employees. Since that is not the case people expect more and will be disapointed.

 

MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.

Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4814

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

1/12/14 6:49:18 PM#37
Originally posted by Iselin

Yup all the cool kids are doing it... and most are lying about one thing or another.... or posturing as being a TRUE TES fan or a true MMOer...which is just the usual cheap ploy to preemptively dismiss anyone who disagrees...

 

Bottom line though, who should actually give a shit? Are gamers that insecure that they won't play something unless several random anonymous posers give it their seal of approval?

underlined answer to your question.

  evilized

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 565

1/12/14 6:54:09 PM#38
Originally posted by -aLpHa-

 


Originally posted by Jjix

Originally posted by -aLpHa-  


The only thing that it will show is that the developers weren't executing good enough (they fucked up). The general concept won't die any time soon. But of course you can blame it on whatever you wan't, it is your prerogative.
OK, let me ask you this:

 

If the design philosophy of a game doesn't matter, and the only thing that determines success is whether it was executed well . . . why is it that one particular design philosophy (themepark) has a virtual monopoly on AAA MMOs?


 

I can't look into the head of the developers but my guess would be that they look at the annual reports from Activision Blizzard and want to recreate/a piece of the success that those big number symbolize.

Everyone wants a piece of that tasty pie and as long as that pie is so tasty, they wanna have a bite from it. The only thing that can change that is when the pie starts to smell funny and taste bitter or someone comes around with a better pie.

Sadly I would probably expect even more themepark MMO's in the near future due to the severe bleeding seen in WoW's sub numbers over the last year or so. A lot of publishers will be drooling over the prospect of picking up those millions of potential customers and thinking they can do so with yet another almost but not exactly the same as wow mmo.

  thecapitaine

Novice Member

Joined: 3/06/11
Posts: 400

1/12/14 6:54:45 PM#39
Originally posted by Jjix
Originally posted by -aLpHa-

 


The only thing that it will show is that the developers weren't executing good enough (they fucked up).

The general concept won't die any time soon.

But of course you can blame it on whatever you wan't, it is your prerogative.

OK, let me ask you this:

If the design philosophy of a game doesn't matter, and the only thing that determines success is whether it was executed well . . . why is it that one particular design philosophy (themepark) has a virtual monopoly on AAA MMOs?

 

The simplistic answer is that all the sandboxes have been executed poorly since EVE debuted.  Most of their devs haven't had the resources to make a game approaching the quality of their themepark contemporaries and the games have suffered from it.  There's no new GW2-equivalent sandbox in terms of execution for the Western audience.

 

To an earlier point, the MMO market is in a state of change.  Maybe partly due to SWTOR's disappointing performance but probably it's the result of the cyclical nature of these things.  After 10 years, devs and publishers have finally come to realize what we've known all along-- WoW is an outlier.  With that out of the way (and the emergence of crowd-sourcing), games are freer to come in all shapes and sizes, from ESO to Trove, from Camelot Unchained to the Repopulation to ArcheAge and beyond. 

 

Anyway, if ESO does well, I sincerely doubt the same voices declaring that it's on the path to failure will come back and say, "We were wrong.  A lot of people really do crave new quest-hubs/instances/themepark gameplay."  In any case, it's a moot point.  The definition of success around here is so skewed and subjective that no game could hope to reach it.

  Herase

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/17/12
Posts: 283

1/12/14 6:58:26 PM#40

Think the reason this game is generating hate is because of the NDA.

 

let me use Wildstar along side as an example. With Wildstar we've had a ton of information about the game, the developers have been very straight forward with what they're doing, there haven't been any "maybes" or "we might do this". It's "yes, this is happening" or "no, there's not talk about said subject"  and they've shown us a lot of whats going on to keep us reassured, with the live stream and articals. So we know what to expect and we can make a judgement call on how hyped we would be.  

 

With ESO the information has been quite bare, we know there's PvP, dungeons, with many other  things been mentioned, but we haven't had any hands-on information, like developers running around pvping or doing dungeons or any of the interesting stuff. Also players are unable to stream and show people what the games about or talk about it, with the game being so close to release. This leaves room for people to speculate, they're not sure what to think, this then leads them to get over hyped on the ideas, but when they try it it's not what they expected it to be. Agian the game is going to be released really soon, but no one can talk or share information about the game, and there is still a fair bit we don't know yet, we've heard and read, but not yet seen. Think people are getting a bit on edge.

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