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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » A lot of skills vs. a lot of buttons

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  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13433

1/11/14 9:49:43 AM#21

What's more fun is knowing that "a lot" is two words, not one.  "Allot" is one word, but that's not what you mean.

Anyway, back on topic, I don't like it when games try to get you to have 50 skills available, most of which you'll virtually never use.  I much prefer a Guild Wars-style system of saying, you can have a lot of skills, but only a handful are available to you at a time, so you have to think about which skills you want to have available when.

I tend to prefer a gamepad for MMORPGs, as I use a keyboard and mouse so much for other things--such as my job.  Aggressive mouse usage after I get home from work, too, would be a repetitive strain injury waiting to happen.  Gamepads have limited numbers of buttons, so I prefer combat that can be handled from relatively few buttons.

  Lord.Bachus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/14/07
Posts: 8599

I believe in life before death... So dont forget to enjoy it while you still can.

1/11/14 10:07:37 AM#22
Originally posted by Quizzical

What's more fun is knowing that "a lot" is two words, not one.  "Allot" is one word, but that's not what you mean.

Anyway, back on topic, I don't like it when games try to get you to have 50 skills available, most of which you'll virtually never use.  I much prefer a Guild Wars-style system of saying, you can have a lot of skills, but only a handful are available to you at a time, so you have to think about which skills you want to have available when.

I tend to prefer a gamepad for MMORPGs, as I use a keyboard and mouse so much for other things--such as my job.  Aggressive mouse usage after I get home from work, too, would be a repetitive strain injury waiting to happen.  Gamepads have limited numbers of buttons, so I prefer combat that can be handled from relatively few buttons.

Thanks for explaining in this educative way. because a lot of players like me are non native English speakers...

 

But however i disagree with you on the 50 skills... if using them all means the difference between a medicore player and a top player, then it is a great thing... but if all those skills do exactly the same, then its not-..

 

Buying and getting used to my NAGA mouse that gives me 48 accessible (alt - ctrl - shift )  buttons in combination with my G15 keyboard and its 18 special buttons... it gives me totall controll over all my skills... feels like an art to me.. and no, i never use macros... because it takes away from the feeling of being in controll...

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  Kevyne-Shandris

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/08
Posts: 1980

You can't † BURY † ¤¤ Holy Paladins ¤¤ As we will always __.- ASCEND -.__

1/11/14 10:08:19 AM#23
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

I think there is a lot of room for slower paced games, that allow people to think carefully before they act..   actually i think in the end that the market in MMO gaming land is much bigger for the sl+ower gameplay then for the ultrafast gameplay... because many many more people will feel competitive... and on top of that... people that love the ultrafast gameplay most often turn towards shooters anyway....

 

Games that require slower reactions make up with consequences. Blew using XYZ ability, they're not going to be using it again unless they die (or exploit the environment). So it's carefully picking when and where to use XYZ ability, not spam that ability as the main "go to" spell.

 

If games would require slower aims; stalking prey; needing to be careful to not draw aggro (as you need to be within striking distance -- not 60 yards away -- to execute a strike), this speed race would finally come down. As the emphasis will be more on the right ability at the right time, than a race to 1111111111111111111111111 spam.

 

If DPS would learn from healing, they can learn that it's not spam and 101 macros that can be fun and skillful, it's when having to make tough choices, you have to decided who and when get priority attention (as the limit for a healer is their mana, they can't 1111111111111 spam, and have to carefully pick targets, like those in triage have to decide who lives and dies). Wrong choice it can be a wipe.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5549

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

1/11/14 10:24:42 AM#24
  total number of skills size of your skill bar possible build combinations
Game A            20 20 1
Game B 20 15 15 504
Game C 20 10 184 756
Game D 20 5 15 504
Game E 20 1 20
*(Calculated using the nCr algorithm. More information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combination.)

 

You will probably notice that game A has effectively just one build. It doesn't put any emphasis on planning or adaptation because you only have one build and that one build is prepared for anything (prepared for anything it is designed to be prepared for anyway).

You might also notice games B and D have the same number of combinations. This is due to the fact that it doesn't matter whether you choose to pick 5 skills to bring with you or to discard. Instances where you choose 2 out of 20, or 18 out of 20 will both have the same number of different combinations as well - 190.

The highest possible number of combinations comes when you have to choose 10 out of 20. Half. Its always half. But what you want to take out from this, is that a subset of skills add depth. It puts emphasis on your ability to anticipate and adapt because you can't prepare for everything. To prevail, you must think and try to make do with what you have. And that takes player skill.

There are also some usability considerations. We don't want to fill the screen with skill bars and we don't want to present the player with choices that are not available at that current time. Less clutter and less buttons to press the more lighter the UI. However this doesn't mean the game is simple.

For example, generally you use only a portion of those 40 skills you might have on the screen making rest of the skills clutter. Adding modes can reduce clutter. Replacing the effects of you land combat abilities with your underwater combat abilities when fighting underwater saves space on the screen. There wouldn't be any point having the other on the screen anyway, because you can't use them. This is also how you can have an wide set of abilities even on a game that uses a controller: the buttons do different things whether you are running, jumping, standing, swimming etc. This should be very familiar to anyone who has ever played a console game.

And lastly, one way to also save screen space and simplify the UI is to reduce skill cycles to just one skill. Most recent example of this is probably Guild Wars 2. The rationale behind it is that, usually, there is little point adapting your cycle mid-way and if you interrupt your cycle, you usually have to start over anyway. That is why they are are called cycles after all: One skill follows the other until the combo is done. That is also why people often use macros to apply them. 1-3 skill bars might take just 1-3 macros to apply.

TL;DR: More is not necessarily better.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Anireth

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 418

1/11/14 10:26:37 AM#25

I enjoyed the hell ouf of NWN with 36 directly available skills on hotbars. I loved being able to blast a horde of orcs storming in with a fireball after i stopped them with timestop, but also having boost my saves against negative energy against that pesky warlord. And after the fight i would use knock to open the chest, heal myself etc.

I similar loved having to choose between 8 skills in GW. if you were alone, you needed some single target DPS, some AoE, some heal/buff, maybe you even carried a signet of capture on your elite skill hunt. You had to figure out which skill allowed you to achieve your current goal best, instead of simply blasting through because you always had the right skill.

Even with groups of 8 or more you had to choose, there was always something that you would love to take, but you simply couldn't, because something else was always needed. That added a lot of tactical value, it allowed different builds to perform better or worse against the same enemy, instead of everyone simply pulling out the same spell every time you encountered that specific enemy.

I also loved playing Vindictus, where you do not use your hotbar all that much, most skills can be activated via simply attacking and movement etc.

And i loved playing UO, where i had not a single skill on a hotbar because i wasn't playing a caster. If i wanted to attack something i simply did, if  i had to heal i even had to open my inventory to use the bandages. Yes, that meant i could only attack one enemy at the time, it meant i couldn't stun him or make him sleep. I couldn't buff myself, i had no heal spells, no teleport, i couldn't really tank, etc. If you couldn't hit harder than the enemy, well, maybe you shouldn't be there?

The amount of skills you have in itself is irrelevant, aswell as whether you can have them all on the hotbar or not. What matters is that you have the skills you need, and that depends on the game.

Generaliziation like "more then 8 skills are too much" or "if i don't have at least 30 hotbar slots it's a bad game" are simply wrong.

Just look at non-MMOs. In Dragon Age you got a hotbar, in Skyrim you got skills on kotkeys, in The Witcher you have only 5 actual skills (the signs).. In Deus Ex 3 you have some hotkeys (activate stealth etc.), some situational skills (knockiing out enemies) and some you could always us. Overall rather few.

In JRPGs you have to select skills from a menu, maybe even while time is running (activate combat system). Yet games like Final Fantasy VII/VIII, Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana etc. are recognized as some of the greatest games ever made.

So let me say it again: How many skills you have, and how you can activate them doesn't mean anything, they simply have to fit the game. They did in NWN, Dragon Age, UO, GW, Vindictus, Chrono Trigger.

--

And arguing that you need a skill for fishing to determine when the action starts and ends..you forgot that there is an animation involved, which has a set duration, including a clearly defined start and end. Thats what skills do anyways, start an animation. When does the skill end? When the animation is finished, maybe a small delay afterwards.

Guess what, UO did most things without actual skills, like, fishing, riding, lumberjacking, carpenting, smithing, tailoring and so on. If it was possible back then, it's even more so possible now. In fact, nothing that was done earlier is impossible now. it might be impossible to achieve everything at once, especially when visuals come into play, but thats something entirely different, and no excuse for the poor execution in most games

I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high
And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll
Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde
And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore

  Rattenmann

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/08/05
Posts: 328

 
OP  1/11/14 10:27:25 AM#26

Since i think some people missed one of my points, or i just suck at explaining it:

I dislike fighting a keyboard, but i love OPTIONs. I am for deleting every useless skill, just like the majority of you is. I also don't want to have to use more then 5 skills in a priority order for anything like tanking or dps. But i still want to have options that are only needed in certain situations. I also understand that most current gen games go the easy route and just reduce your available hotbuttons and call it "convinient".

 

Leave the tactical desitions in the game, just leave out useless stuff.

 

Said game needs just as many keybinds / buttons / macros (however you want to call it) then Rift does. Or any other 40+ skill game. But you only get to choose 5 of those buttons. It is like having dozen auto bound useless skills learned from lvl 1.

So in essence you give up options for nothing and still have to fight your keyboard (which is never good) just as bad.

Also: thanks for pointing out my "a lot" issue. Will remember in the future.

MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.

Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?

  Kevyne-Shandris

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/08
Posts: 1980

You can't † BURY † ¤¤ Holy Paladins ¤¤ As we will always __.- ASCEND -.__

1/11/14 10:36:51 AM#27
Originally posted by Quirhid

And lastly, one way to also save screen space and simplify the UI is to reduce skill cycles to just one skill.

Or better, having to make decisions with consequences in a situation, so we don't need 10 pages of math formulas for 101k combinations (aka filler).

 

That's why I love healing as my game play, because it's not about A skill to apply to B target over and over and over. It's about watching the field to find the best target, and making a HUMAN decision on the spot (which gets better to chose with more experience). It adds the imperfectness of being human in the equation than the mathematical assurance that A macro will work over B keybind (which is why I consider them cheats).

 

In the process my keyboard and mouse isn't worn bare in a year from 111111111111111111111111 (or CTRL+1 loaded into a macro) spamming, too.

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6751

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

1/11/14 10:40:26 AM#28

This topic is brilliant IF talking about FFXI because all the other games did not put any depth into their combat system.

Where FFXI failed is to take that depth far enough so that players always had to use the entire system instead of ignoring it and going strict dps and nothing else.

Also what FFXI did right was create and utilize a MACRO system that also kept the screen free of clutter.When you wanted to use a macro you hit ALT or CNTRL and called it up.

Games that clutter the screen with 3/4/5+ rows of hotbars is just nonsense.FFXI had a lot of skills and spells and all were meaningful but as mentioned,you did not need them all in every fight.Some might argue it takes a lot of time to make all those different macros for various situations and it did ,but once you had it all down you were set forever unless changing a gear macro.

Why FFXI also did it right was it allowed you time to think,i love having to think, i hate easy mode.So it's not like you had to look over 5 rows of hotbars and remember where each one was in a split second.FFXI had spells/abilities that were great at level 1 and still great at max level,that is a good design when stuff is not constantly rotated out for a newer higher version,although it did that as well.

That is why searching for a new game to play has been extremely frustrating ,most class and combat designs look like the team spent all of one day designing it.

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6751

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

1/11/14 10:44:20 AM#29
Originally posted by iridescence

Good post. It's tactical vs strategic thinking I think. The strategic player wants a lot of skills available so, through knowledge and memorization, they want to win a fight before it even starts by being crazy prepared. The more tactical player wants  fewer skills in play to give them more reactive freedom for things like dodging or using terrain to advantage. Although there definitely still is a strategic element to games which force you to pick your deck of skills from a large selection before combat (so maybe those are the best melding of strategy and tactics).

 

I suspect there is a similar breakdown about hotbar vs action combat in MMOs (really it's stupid to have a tab target system without a lot of skills - you  really get the worst of all worlds).

 

One addition is that I think if you are going to have a lot of skills in the game you should outlaw mods and macros. The challenge of these systems is actually knowing which skill to use at which time in which order. When you have a mod or a macro to do that for you it really does just become dumb button mashing.

 

I prefer having a lot of buttons but as long as the game has a lot of skills to choose from I think both systems can work

lMAO That is me in a nutshell,i love tactical,i would rather spend a day preparing a strategy than jump right in all hyper like i needed ridilin.

Even when i play FPS's i love maps that offer strategy,that si also why i can't stand mmorpg pvp,i would rather watch paint dry than stand out in the open and spam hotbars back n forth.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  Kevyne-Shandris

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/08
Posts: 1980

You can't † BURY † ¤¤ Holy Paladins ¤¤ As we will always __.- ASCEND -.__

1/11/14 11:14:13 AM#30
Originally posted by Wizardry

Games that clutter the screen with 3/4/5+ rows of hotbars is just nonsense.

 

Yet hiding them behind macros and keybinds is sense? o.O

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13433

1/11/14 11:20:41 AM#31
Originally posted by Zaradoom

Since i think some people missed one of my points, or i just suck at explaining it:

I dislike fighting a keyboard, but i love OPTIONs. I am for deleting every useless skill, just like the majority of you is. I also don't want to have to use more then 5 skills in a priority order for anything like tanking or dps. But i still want to have options that are only needed in certain situations. I also understand that most current gen games go the easy route and just reduce your available hotbuttons and call it "convinient".

 

Leave the tactical desitions in the game, just leave out useless stuff.

 

Said game needs just as many keybinds / buttons / macros (however you want to call it) then Rift does. Or any other 40+ skill game. But you only get to choose 5 of those buttons. It is like having dozen auto bound useless skills learned from lvl 1.

So in essence you give up options for nothing and still have to fight your keyboard (which is never good) just as bad.

Also: thanks for pointing out my "a lot" issue. Will remember in the future.

What I think you mean is that you want more interesting options, not just more options in total.  The problem is that the more options you give players, the harder it is to make all of them interesting.  You can have a ranged attack versus a melee attack, an area attack versus a single-target attack, an instant damage attack versus a damage over time attack, and so forth.  So it's easy to have five skills and make them all interesting and useful.

But if you want to give players 30 skills and make them all useful, so that none are readily replaced by others or only rarely useful, that's much harder.  You can do it the Uncharted Waters Online way, of making it so that there are an enormous number of wildly different activities, and skills meant for one are obviously useless in another.  But that's done by making most of the skills irrelevant to combat, so it's probably not what you're after.

If you want to make 30 different combat skills all useful to a single player in an area without making many of them interchangeable substitutes for each other, that's much harder to do.  I don't think I've ever seen any game pull it off.  Part of my argument against 50 skills on hotbars at once is that if you try it, players will basically ignore most of those skills most of the time.

-----

Since you didn't seem to take offense, a quick grammar lesson:

The "a" in "a lot" is the indefinite article, and means the same thing as the "a" in "a forum" or "a post" (which admittedly, is not much).  The noun in "a lot" is "lot".  It can be plural, as in "lots".  In colloquial use, "a lot of buttons" means the same thing as "lots of buttons".

The noun "lot" can in some contexts refer to a very specific quantity.  In Guild Wars 1 and 2, for example, crafting materials will stack to 250 in a single inventory slot; if you want more than 250 of something, it takes multiple slots.  So players refer to a "stack" of something as meaning 250 of it.  Three stacks of green wood planks, for example, is 750 of them.  Players could have used "lots" instead of "stacks" and it would have meant the same thing and still been grammatically correct.  But this usage is less common than the colloquial usage meaning "many", but not some exact quantity.

There is also a verb "allot", which comes from the same root as "allocate" and means about the same thing.  For example, if you get five attribute points when you level up, you could allot 3 of them to attack speed and 2 to magic defense.

There are a lot of things in the English language that could not have been designed by someone seeking to facilitate clear communication, such as "affect" versus "effect" or "lie" versus "lay".  But "a lot" isn't so hard; "alot" doesn't actually mean anything, and basically no one ever says "alots".

  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1256

1/11/14 11:53:19 AM#32
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
Originally posted by iridescence

 

Strategical is planning ahead of time... placing the right skills on your bar is very strategical

Tactical comes with real time decisions...  choosing the right skill at the right time...

 

Yes, actually hotbar games with a lot of buttons can combine both strategy and tactics  if  the skills are done well and there isn't just an optimal rotation  to handle every encounter.

 

I still maintain that games with just under 10 unchanging skills are not good strategic games as there are very little planning or thought involved in what skills to use. The difficulty of these games is all from twitch-based skills while the battle is going on and knowing where to move and reacting to what your opponent does.

 

A game like GW2 has a nice strategic layer because you actually to have a lot of skills to be aware of along with also being pretty good on the tactical side. I kind of dislike the feel of GW2's combat (the fact that there's so much kiting in it mainly) but I'll give them credit for a well designed combat system.

 

  Rinna

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/04
Posts: 387

1/11/14 11:57:18 AM#33

I just recently went back to WoW and was a bit overwhelmed with all the crap on my screen lol.  Back when I played WoW, I had almost every skill on my screen so everything was close and readily available should I need it.  This time I put almost everything on scrolling or hidden bars except for about 10 buttons I press the most often.

I don't have time for all that button maintenance lol.  I'm still not sure however, that I won't get bored with say, 5-9 buttons the newer games seem to be sprouting up with.

No bitchers.

  mindw0rk

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/31/06
Posts: 1361

1/11/14 12:18:40 PM#34

I still consider WoW combat system to be the best in genre. And the huge amount of diverse abilities (about 60 per class) is one of major reasons for it. Skilled players can get huge advantage when master them all through alot of practice and PvP.

I played Archeage recently, and very limited amount of skills just bored me. I feel like I learned everything very fast and there is nowhere to grow as a player

 

  darkhalf357x

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/25/12
Posts: 1109

I'm only playing the role chosen for me. Who you supposed to be?

1/11/14 12:27:18 PM#35

I agree with you Op.  Many here are confusing option with implementation.  Having many skills does not necessarily mean that all of the skills are useless/fluff.  That is up to the implementation, which is at the discretion of the developer.

I dont know, I think EQ1 did it best.  I had a ton of skills, disciplines, etc.  I could create my own hotbars as many as I wanted scaled to how I wanted (horizontal, vertical, square, rectangle, etc).  I could create my own macros if I wanted. Hotbar combat but you could move to position yourself correctly.

Unfortunately the game is just dated.  If someone would copy THAT with state of the art development tools we have today I honestly believe we would have an awesome RPG, not just a game.

  darkhalf357x

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/25/12
Posts: 1109

I'm only playing the role chosen for me. Who you supposed to be?

1/11/14 12:34:26 PM#36
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Zaradoom

Since i think some people missed one of my points, or i just suck at explaining it:

I dislike fighting a keyboard, but i love OPTIONs. I am for deleting every useless skill, just like the majority of you is. I also don't want to have to use more then 5 skills in a priority order for anything like tanking or dps. But i still want to have options that are only needed in certain situations. I also understand that most current gen games go the easy route and just reduce your available hotbuttons and call it "convinient".

 

Leave the tactical desitions in the game, just leave out useless stuff.

 

Said game needs just as many keybinds / buttons / macros (however you want to call it) then Rift does. Or any other 40+ skill game. But you only get to choose 5 of those buttons. It is like having dozen auto bound useless skills learned from lvl 1.

So in essence you give up options for nothing and still have to fight your keyboard (which is never good) just as bad.

Also: thanks for pointing out my "a lot" issue. Will remember in the future.

What I think you mean is that you want more interesting options, not just more options in total.  The problem is that the more options you give players, the harder it is to make all of them interesting.  You can have a ranged attack versus a melee attack, an area attack versus a single-target attack, an instant damage attack versus a damage over time attack, and so forth.  So it's easy to have five skills and make them all interesting and useful.

But if you want to give players 30 skills and make them all useful, so that none are readily replaced by others or only rarely useful, that's much harder.  You can do it the Uncharted Waters Online way, of making it so that there are an enormous number of wildly different activities, and skills meant for one are obviously useless in another.  But that's done by making most of the skills irrelevant to combat, so it's probably not what you're after.

If you want to make 30 different combat skills all useful to a single player in an area without making many of them interchangeable substitutes for each other, that's much harder to do.  I don't think I've ever seen any game pull it off.  Part of my argument against 50 skills on hotbars at once is that if you try it, players will basically ignore most of those skills most of the time.

-----

Since you didn't seem to take offense, a quick grammar lesson:

The "a" in "a lot" is the indefinite article, and means the same thing as the "a" in "a forum" or "a post" (which admittedly, is not much).  The noun in "a lot" is "lot".  It can be plural, as in "lots".  In colloquial use, "a lot of buttons" means the same thing as "lots of buttons".

The noun "lot" can in some contexts refer to a very specific quantity.  In Guild Wars 1 and 2, for example, crafting materials will stack to 250 in a single inventory slot; if you want more than 250 of something, it takes multiple slots.  So players refer to a "stack" of something as meaning 250 of it.  Three stacks of green wood planks, for example, is 750 of them.  Players could have used "lots" instead of "stacks" and it would have meant the same thing and still been grammatically correct.  But this usage is less common than the colloquial usage meaning "many", but not some exact quantity.

There is also a verb "allot", which comes from the same root as "allocate" and means about the same thing.  For example, if you get five attribute points when you level up, you could allot 3 of them to attack speed and 2 to magic defense.

There are a lot of things in the English language that could not have been designed by someone seeking to facilitate clear communication, such as "affect" versus "effect" or "lie" versus "lay".  But "a lot" isn't so hard; "alot" doesn't actually mean anything, and basically no one ever says "alots".

I agree with most of your post.  To me if you had 50 (unique) skills, its not to use all of them for all combat.  Naturally out of 50 you get to select what set of skills you feel comfortable with and move forward with that.  MMOs as it core mechanic is grinding in one form or another.  If I had 50 skills I would be able to switch the ones I use frequently making the gameplay feel fresh and giving me options.

What happens today is two-fold. I get a game with a limited hotbar and I get bored with those skills around the 30th level.  Or I get a ton of skills on a hotbar (becoming extinct) and giving you these long strains of rotations.

Give me a large number of skills.  Let me pick how many I want to use and when.

  darkhalf357x

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/25/12
Posts: 1109

I'm only playing the role chosen for me. Who you supposed to be?

1/11/14 12:38:32 PM#37
Originally posted by mindw0rk

I still consider WoW combat system to be the best in genre. And the huge amount of diverse abilities (about 60 per class) is one of major reasons for it. Skilled players can get huge advantage when master them all through alot of practice and PvP.

I played Archeage recently, and very limited amount of skills just bored me. I feel like I learned everything very fast and there is nowhere to grow as a player

 

Too bad WoW took away player choice as its combat was good.  I'd prefer to have skill points and have my hunter need ammo and be able to melee to add flexibility.   To me WoW is more of an RPG arcade where you fighting to collect something (which can be fun) as opposed to playing a character (i.e. losing its RPG element and pushing the MMO one).

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13433

1/11/14 12:59:56 PM#38
Originally posted by darkhalf357x

If I had 50 skills I would be able to switch the ones I use frequently making the gameplay feel fresh and giving me options.

What happens today is two-fold. I get a game with a limited hotbar and I get bored with those skills around the 30th level.  Or I get a ton of skills on a hotbar (becoming extinct) and giving you these long strains of rotations.

Give me a large number of skills.  Let me pick how many I want to use and when.

That may be an argument for having 50 skills, but it's not an argument for having 50 skills all available simultaneously.  Think of Guild Wars 1 where you might have 100 skills for your class, of which only eight are on your bar available for a zone.  But if you weren't using PVE-only skills to make everything trivial, you'd often have to change which eight skills you were using to be more effective against the mobs in that particular zone.

  mindw0rk

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/31/06
Posts: 1361

1/11/14 1:01:38 PM#39
Originally posted by darkhalf357x
Originally posted by mindw0rk

I still consider WoW combat system to be the best in genre. And the huge amount of diverse abilities (about 60 per class) is one of major reasons for it. Skilled players can get huge advantage when master them all through alot of practice and PvP.

I played Archeage recently, and very limited amount of skills just bored me. I feel like I learned everything very fast and there is nowhere to grow as a player

 

Too bad WoW took away player choice as its combat was good.  I'd prefer to have skill points and have my hunter need ammo and be able to melee to add flexibility.   To me WoW is more of an RPG arcade where you fighting to collect something (which can be fun) as opposed to playing a character (i.e. losing its RPG element and pushing the MMO one).

Hunters had melee attacks and limited arrows in the past. For most players including me it was more annoying and useless then fun. So they removed it. Hunter in WoW is now my favourite class across any MMORPG

  Rattenmann

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/08/05
Posts: 328

 
OP  1/11/14 1:30:51 PM#40

Lets get an example of skills done right into this discussion.

 

Everquest 1, Necromancer.

I don't know how many different kind of dots this class has. At least 10 id guess ;-) But is that boring? Hell no!

 

  • efficient dots that tick for like 3 min, do good damage, cost low mana
  • dots that tick for 30sec, do the same damage, cost way more mana
  • dots that tick for 3min, do way more damage, cost way more mana
  • dots that tick for 30 sec, do way more damage, cost WAY WAY more mana
  • dots that tick for 2min, start out low damage and every tick gets bigger and bigger
  • dots that heal your group while damageing the enemy, with bad damage / mana ratios

 

Just to name a few. So you could argue they are all dots and it should simply be one big dot. And id argue that would be boring as hell. Having to adjust to your current fight takes more "skill" then mindlessly klicking that one button. Take the above in a boss fight. Shit hits the fan, healer running OOM and the boss needs to die, now. You would switch to your less efficient dots and try to burst him down. Or maybe take some pressure of the healers by healing your group with inefficient dots, so the healer can focus on the tank and not having to AoE heal.

Adds coming in that die fast? No need for those long ticking dots.

The same applies to group content. In Everquest you CAN use a standard rotation, that is about 70-80% efficient for any given group situation. But you could also just do a different rotation for every trash pack to max out that dps / mana ratio. More OPTION to not get bored.

Just to come up with a real example on why having a lot of good and diverse options opens up chances to adjust midfight and shine as a good player. And we are only talking about some dots here. I am sure you can come up with more pretty examples that include other skills not related to damage.

 

Then again, unless it is an action game (i still dislike my RPGs becoming action games,...), you could just as well click your situational skills with the mouse *gasp* and only have your standard rotation on 1-5. Oh and what bores you more? Klicking the same 5 skills over and over, or having to use your brain and adjust midfight?

It all comes down to lazy design of current gen games in my book, really. I agree that having more skills in current gen seems like a plague. Yet i am having a blast playing good old everquest every now and again if i can't stand the boredom that is current gen MMOs.

 

MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.

Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?

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