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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Hot Topic: Black People in Fantasy theme games or lack there of...

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230 posts found
  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1491

1/10/14 10:55:30 PM#221

No, you're not understanding what I was saying. I was simply pointing out that assuming that there would be black elves because there are black humans doesn't make much sense and since the person I was replying to said specifically that he doesn't like Drow, which are literally black elves, it seems he wants Elves that act like and act like Africans or something which also doesn't make any sense to me. It's like saying "why aren't there Chinese elves?"

 

I wasn't saying that all elves have to have light skin.You can make them purple if you want but they should have their own non-human culture.

 

  Zorgo

Elite Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2266

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

1/11/14 12:30:32 AM#222
Originally posted by iridescence

No, you're not understanding what I was saying. I was simply pointing out that assuming that there would be black elves because there are black humans doesn't make much sense and since the person I was replying to said specifically that he doesn't like Drow, which are literally black elves, it seems he wants Elves that act like and act like Africans or something which also doesn't make any sense to me. It's like saying "why aren't there Chinese elves?"

 

I wasn't saying that all elves have to have light skin.You can make them purple if you want but they should have their own non-human culture.

 

But my mis-perception of your statement was much more fun to poke at!

Thanks for clarifying =)

  Mew59

Novice Member

Joined: 4/25/09
Posts: 6

1/12/14 2:54:56 PM#223

The answer is simple. There aren't enough black people playing or taking enough interest in fantasy rpgs. As a black woman..mentioning MMORPGs elicits looks of puzzlement from friends and family. Why would they attempt to draw in (which is what adding more black figures into their games/advertising would do) a group of people who they just don't think would be interested?  

 

And, to those certain people, it's a fantasy game. I don't care if the environment is snowy and mountainous, set in Azeroth, etc. There are trolls, old white men wielding magic, and cheese wheels...I don't think black people are that out of place.

Playing: Aion and GW2
Played: Star Trek, WoW, C9, SWTOR, Vindictus, Rift, Tera, Allods, Champions, CoH/V, D&D,FFXIV, GW, Lineage 2, LotR, Warhammer, Neverwinter
Waiting for: Wildstar and TESO

  lizardbones

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

1/12/14 3:32:00 PM#224


Originally posted by Mew59
The answer is simple. There aren't enough black people playing or taking enough interest in fantasy rpgs. As a black woman..mentioning MMORPGs elicits looks of puzzlement from friends and family. Why would they attempt to draw in (which is what adding more black figures into their games/advertising would do) a group of people who they just don't think would be interested?  

 

And, to those certain people, it's a fantasy game. I don't care if the environment is snowy and mountainous, set in Azeroth, etc. There are trolls, old white men wielding magic, and cheese wheels...I don't think black people are that out of place.




Cheese wheels?

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  aRtFuLThinG

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/30/09
Posts: 1116

1/12/14 5:04:52 PM#225
Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris
Originally posted by crack_fox
Originally posted by ElRenmazuo

I think Tolkien was just a tad bit racist lol.  I mean if black and indian colored people were with sauron in his books thats kind of like saying black and indian people are with satan...

That has never been my understanding. I have always taken it to mean that their leaders have fallen under Sauron's influence, not that those peoples are themselves evil. For me, what stands out in Tolkien's writing is the emphasis on social class rather than race. The only evil race are the orcs, and when they speak Common their vocabulary is that of the English working class. The heroes by contrast are largely of 'better stock' with the notable exception of loyal Sam, the subservient commoner who clearly 'knows his place'. 

 

Samwise was fashioned after the batmen in the British army (officer stewards). The loyal Tommy Aitkens.

 

Tolkien was a product of his age, and by todays standards would be considered "old fashioned" to put it nicely. He was also deeply religious and a devout Roman Catholic, and very sensitive of being Catholic in Protestant England (he regarded his mother, who converted to Catholicism, a "martyr" for what she faced for doing so [she died just a decade later than her husband, leaving Tolkien and his brother orphans]). Not only did he detest the USA, he detested the French and the modern world and it's machines (he regarded the firebombing of Dresden and the atomic bomb drops as hellish). All that came from his writings. You can just regard him as your typical midlands British subject, which he was, and just as fussy.

 

For him the world would be what he experienced as a poor orphan during the Imperial age. His fascination for languages, like Welsh (foreign and almost driven to extinction in his day), is what drove him to write stories of fantasy of the medieval world. Add the hardships he faced as a sub-lieutenant during WWI, it shaped his worldview overall.

 

But his world was white with all the prejudices and racism of the time. Much like Samuel Clements (Mark Twain) was a product of his generation. It's hard to judge them because that was the status quo of the day, but they were that.

^ Good post.

 

And you are correct imo. On top of that Tolkien's time was NOT the Information Age we got to remember - it is NOT an age where information about places and people are readily available, where a lot of people is still uneducated, and where a lot of people still has not travelled very far (because shipping was still the main mode of transportation for passengers at distance and ships are slow).

 

That's why Englishmen back in the early 1900's called Africa the "Dark Continent" - NOT because the people are dark skinned, but because they know next to nothing about Africa and it is "in the dark" to them - a view which is highly reflective I think in Tolkien's writings (we know next to nothing about the South, the swarthy people and the Easterlings, nothing about their history or kings, in the Tolkien's universe, because they were in the regions so dominated by the influence of Sauron and before him, Morgoth.

  monochrome19

Novice Member

Joined: 1/09/13
Posts: 330

1/12/14 5:41:39 PM#226
Originally posted by artyport

You know what really annoys me as a black person.

NO BLACK ELVES. 

Seriously. Everytime black people are depicted in games they are all butch and buldgey. 

We are not all giant scary people.

I, Myself am very elf like. Tall and Very lean and have softer features.  

Please someone make black elves.. AND NOT DARK ELVES!

Well, you see... that's how people generally see us.

Exhibit A

  jesad

Novice Member

Joined: 9/30/06
Posts: 733

Think of something witty and pretend that I typed it in this spot :)

1/14/14 3:44:53 AM#227

HAHA!! now that was just silly.

In response to the "Black Elves" thing, and all the crazy replies that came after.  Peter Jackson didn't seem to have any problem with making the HOIFC (that's Head Orc in Freaking Charge) white when just about every other orc you have seen in the entire first three movies has been more of a dirt color.

That dispels just about every response to the Black Elves thing I believe.

Oh, and that thing about humans thinking of light as pure or whatever?  Most racists shit I ever heard LOL.

First off, light is not white.  White is white, light is a spectrum of different colors as provable by shining it through a prism.  White is the devoid of all color.  Also, only albino people are truly white in complexion and an albino person can come from any race.  The thing that we refer to as "white people" are actually "pink" people and the thing we refer to as "black people" are in fact "brown" people.

Being brown people is a genetic result of an EXPOSURE to the light while being pink people is a genetic result of staying OUT OF THE LIGHT, as the ancestors of the pink people often did due to the poor weather in the places where they chose to live.

We all come from the same place though, so behave yourselves.

With all of that being said, and lord knows why I should have to explain something like that, there is completely room IN TOLKIEN LORE for brown elves.

In fact, everybody's favorite, Legolas, was in fact a "Sylvan" elf or "Grey Elf", of a race of elves that were a mix between the Dark Elves and the High Elves.  Of course, Peter Jackson chose to forgo this fact because, as I stated earlier, a white Legolas puts more white asses in the movie theater seats, but that's not Tolkien's fault.

If you want to come down on Tolkien for something, come down on him for calling the whiter elves the "High" elves and making them good while making the Dark elves the underground dwellers and evil, which is, if you read and understood what I explained earlier, a COMPLETE REVERSAL of how one might achieve such pigmentation.

Don't call him an exclusionist though.

In fact, just about every pen and paper D&D player in these forums will attest to having always known the wood elves to be the darker complected elves generally chosen by black people who wanted to play elves that they could racially identify with, so I have no idea where you all are coming from with the stuff that you are saying, including the person who generated that original statement.

Black elves (like black people) exist and have always existed, without assumption, and without an reason to "force" them into the story.  And any conclusion otherwise is just what some minds WISH where true and not actually the truth.

Likewise the conclusion that there would never be a knight of a darker complexion than pink.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvan_Elves

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morien

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Maurice

I agree that the need for Heimdall to be black was a bit unnecessary but not so much because he could not have been black but because he was not ever depicted that way in the past.

The desire to see things done properly is exact for me, not general.

 

  jesad

Novice Member

Joined: 9/30/06
Posts: 733

Think of something witty and pretend that I typed it in this spot :)

1/14/14 3:52:21 AM#228

Also, you can completely thank me for adding the name Morien to the stable of good names for black dudes that want to play pally's to choose from.

At your service.  :)

  jesad

Novice Member

Joined: 9/30/06
Posts: 733

Think of something witty and pretend that I typed it in this spot :)

1/14/14 4:23:08 AM#229

Also, while I am on this topic, let us not forget my main man Othello....

Although not a medieval knight, Othello, if you read the story properly, goes down in history as being one the greatest knights of all time, not only being a warrior of great reknown but even having been a ruler and having his own epic sword, the likes of other great romantic knights such as Roland (and I believe that it might in fact actually be the fallen Roland's sword).  A warrior and leader of men of all color, only felled by the jealousy of a man he befriended who did not achieve that which Othello was able to achieve, which was greatness.

If you read the story of Othello from Othello's perspective you will get really mad LOL.  But I read it from the perspective of a guy who likes epic warriors and for me, these lines say it all....

"I have another weapon in this chamber;
It is a sword of Spain, the ice-brook's temper:-- (like Excalibur maybe?)
O, here it is. Uncle, I must come forth.
"

"Behold, I have a weapon;
A better never did itself sustain
Upon a soldier's thigh: I have seen the day,
That, with this little arm and this good sword,
I have made my way through more impediments
Than twenty times your stop:
"

"Man but a rush against Othello's breast,
And he retires."

That's some heavy stuff right there.  Just saying.  But no one ever picks up and writes out "The Adventures of Othello".  and so maybe that's why we don't think that there are enough representations out there to justify including black people into these kinds of stories.

As I stated earlier though, it's not really true.

  jesad

Novice Member

Joined: 9/30/06
Posts: 733

Think of something witty and pretend that I typed it in this spot :)

1/17/14 2:53:31 AM#230

Not to pound on a week old topic but while I have this teaching moment I figured I'd just put this out there.  Did you know that the entire mythos of the dragon slayer may have in fact been predicated on a mixed kid?

I give you St. George, the dragonslayer.

 

Christian Saint and Martyr, dragon slayer of antiquity, and most importantly (even if the dragon slaying thing was just a tall tail) a REAL dude. (I believe the image on the right is the oldest known painting and if that ain't an afro I don't know what is).

Pretty much the basis for all dragon slaying tails (save for Beowulf, who is more like an ogre slayer) St. George, born in Palestine to a Roman soldier and a local woman, was probably, for all intents and purposes, at the very least of a mixture of both African and European blood.  He is venerated by both Muslims and Christians, and completely the inspiration for any knight in shining armor killing any dragon that you have ever seen.

So there you go for representations of people of color in the fantasy setting.  Every excuse you ever heard was BS.  If we aren't there its because somebody was not looking hard enough to find out how we fit.

And again, I understand given the circumstances of a lot of people's upbringing.  But if I can find all of this and I am just some dude on the internet, I really don't want to hear anyone who is getting paid for feeding this stuff to the public's lame excuses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_George

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragonslayers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon

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