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News & Features Discussion  » [Editorial] World of Warcraft: WoW Clone - You Say That Like It's a Bad Thing

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159 posts found
  Antiquated

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 479

1/06/14 3:25:23 PM#61

Wow discarded systems from previous games that didn't work well, and tuned the working parts well enough to essentially define how they worked (in all new titles) for the next decade.

The next company to sit down and really rethink each and every system going into their game, including rethinking Blizzard's answers...at least escapes the sea of waiting critics. Tell them "this is how we want it, and this is why". Stand up to the closet game designers who want to turn the clock backward, and make the future (not the past).

  Herase

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/17/12
Posts: 283

1/06/14 3:48:38 PM#62

Think someone made a good point, between WoW clone and Theme park clone. Yea there are games that have outright copied Wow, but when people call something a Wow clone and i look at it, and it has one or two features in common, but has so many things that make it it's own game (more so games coming out this year). I think "really?"  If they said "Theme park clone", then ill be like, yeah that's understandable. They've taken the themepark idea and added their own unique flavor to it. Same thing Wow did all thos many years ago, but because they made a sucesses off these theme park ideas people seem to think these ideas are origanaly created by blizzard and anything that has them is a Wow clone.

 

Another thing i've noticed is people scream "We want something new" but then players will ignore all these features that are new or a new twist on some old ideas. You could have an in-depth crafting system, 600 ways to level and many cool side features to progress your toon at endgame, but people will ignore it and play it has if it's Wow, zerging to max level, then jump on the forums later and say "it's a Wow clone", without ever trying all the features that make it it's own game. 

 

Overall yes it's a bad thing, I think the term just needs to die out, as many games coming bring much more to the table than Wow can offer right now and i think were going to get a lot more in the upcoming years. Don't think they will hit the same sub levels Wow did, because that was  one time thing and won't happen for a long long time and i think that's another thing players need to realize, there expecting games to have the same level of succeses, if it doesn't it's a failed clone 

 

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19520

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

1/06/14 4:00:19 PM#63
Originally posted by flguy147

Its almost impossible to have a MMO with out similar features as other MMOs such as WOW.  Can you make a football game without having first downs and passing?  Hard to make a FPS without guns and running through a map shooting people.  If you change it too much it will not be a MMO anymore.  When i played AOC if felt nothing at all similar to WOW.  To me it was completely different eventhough it had a lot of the same features.  Dungeons actually felt like dungeons in the game for example.  

Even Skyrim has a ton of the same exact features as MMOs but everybody holds up so high.  When you do the main storylines of guilds and the main storyline you have to go do this quest before you do the next.  You have side quests too just like MMOs.  Crafting isnt anything new in Skyrim vs other MMOs.  The quests you basically go kill mobs or collect an item most of the time just like any MMO.  The thing Skyrim does is make it fun on how they implement.  

Really?  Let's see now, just a few off the top of my head:

1) Housing, personal and guild halls.

2) PVP based around territory control. (EVE, L1/L2, Shadowbane)

3) Wide variety of races/classes with racial specific traits (EQ1, EQ2, DAOC)

4) Randomized stats on drops, with world drops being some of the best gear in the game (AC, L1, L2 others)

5) Armor designed to be stronger against some attack types, neutral to others, and appreciable weaker to others. (DAOC)

6)  Crafting with real meaning, and impact on the world economy.  (SWG, DAOC, many others)

7) I could go on for hours, there's so many optional designs out there, many that have yet to be thought of or fully fleshed out, but no, Dev's pretty much stick with safe mode.

If you had played titles such as UO, AC1, DAOC, Shadowbane, L1, L2, FFXI, EVE and some others you'd see MMO's didn't have to follow the EQ1/WOW/standard themepark designs so closely, and there's some very real differences in these games that WOW and the many games that follow it have largely discarded.

No one who ever played EVE thought to themselves, this sure feels like a WOW clone.

 

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
"People can do with their money what they want. But... that doesn't make it smart" - COORS
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  JJ82

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/02/13
Posts: 1102

1/06/14 4:11:02 PM#64

The Sims 2 is still the best selling game of all time with over 20 million copies, The Sims is #2 with 16 million.

Doesn't this mean that every game should be more like them? No? Right!

Why the hell does the MMO genre have to be different than every single other market on the planet? I cant think of one that feels it must be more and more like the best selling whatever in their markets. There is just so much dup dup ditty day going on due to corporations focused on quick profit and a few designers that just plain cant come up with any new ideas.

To pull a Batman quote "This town needs an enema", only its the genre that needs it.

"People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  syriinx

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/24/13
Posts: 996

1/06/14 4:15:06 PM#65

This is an atrocious article because it doesnt even understand what "WoW clone" even means.

 

No one at WoW's release ever called WoW an "EQ clone".  In fact, the only people that utter such idiocy are fans of a game that is a WoW clone that are trying to defend it.

 

The big difference is this:  WoW set out to improve upon the MMORPG genre.  Games like Rift dont set out to improve the genre, they set out to improve WoW.

 

And the problem is, the WoW clones all fail in some key areas.  And in some ways WoW itself fails in these same ways now, though some of it is unavoidable due to age.

1.  The journey is as important as the destination.  The average player took several months to max level in WoW, as opposed to several weeks in all of its clone

2.  Linearity is bad.  WoW was far from linear, and also you couldnt see everything on one, or even two, characters.  Now everyone is funneled through the same zone progression and when time comes to roll an alt, youve already seen it all

3.  Some things are worth working for.  It seems odd to say this about WoW, but there was a time when getting even your first mount was a big deal.  And an epic mount was a huge accomplishment.  Nowadays most games (WoW included) hand you everything, or place it behind a boring repetition grind, which leads me to

4. Copy the good parts, not the bad parts.  Reputation grinds, token grinds, linear dungeons, raid tiers that obsolete last month's gear, daily quests.  This isnt the stuff that made WoW popular.  Yet most WoW clones seem to think so.

And of course, WoW's combat is better than any other GCD/rotation based game.  Its smooth and its classes are well developed.  Its easy to learn but difficult to master.

If people had been busy copying the good parts of WoW and ignored the bad parts, WoW clone wouldnt be so derogatory.

  syriinx

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/24/13
Posts: 996

1/06/14 4:19:28 PM#66
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by flguy147

Its almost impossible to have a MMO with out similar features as other MMOs such as WOW.  Can you make a football game without having first downs and passing?  Hard to make a FPS without guns and running through a map shooting people.  If you change it too much it will not be a MMO anymore.  When i played AOC if felt nothing at all similar to WOW.  To me it was completely different eventhough it had a lot of the same features.  Dungeons actually felt like dungeons in the game for example.  

Even Skyrim has a ton of the same exact features as MMOs but everybody holds up so high.  When you do the main storylines of guilds and the main storyline you have to go do this quest before you do the next.  You have side quests too just like MMOs.  Crafting isnt anything new in Skyrim vs other MMOs.  The quests you basically go kill mobs or collect an item most of the time just like any MMO.  The thing Skyrim does is make it fun on how they implement.  

Really?  Let's see now, just a few off the top of my head:

1) Housing, personal and guild halls.

2) PVP based around territory control. (EVE, L1/L2, Shadowbane)

3) Wide variety of races/classes with racial specific traits (EQ1, EQ2, DAOC)

4) Randomized stats on drops, with world drops being some of the best gear in the game (AC, L1, L2 others)

5) Armor designed to be stronger against some attack types, neutral to others, and appreciable weaker to others. (DAOC)

6)  Crafting with real meaning, and impact on the world economy.  (SWG, DAOC, many others)

7) I could go on for hours, there's so many optional designs out there, many that have yet to be thought of or fully fleshed out, but no, Dev's pretty much stick with safe mode.

 

 

 

WoW has contained or flirted with most of these, and it definitely contains number 3.  The vast majority of class specs play very differently from each other so WoW really has around 30 classes and is up to 13 races

  Coated

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/05/09
Posts: 302

1/06/14 4:20:05 PM#67

WOW is a great game for what it is, but the success of WOW has been detrimental to the MMORPG world.

Just look at the games since the release of WOW. Every game has been a WOW clone, Stripped of any player creativity with emphasis on player hand holding. Look, I'm not saying WOW is a bad game, it is very polished and plays like it, but the MMORPG world has been suffering since its release and its success is at fault.

WOW clones are terrible. The genre called for it when WOW was released, but it doesn't need these types of MMORPG's anymore. WOW has filled that role and then some. Any release following in that footstep is fail and fail some more. Wildstar will fail, it will fail so damn hard that I can't wait to say, "I told you". I honestly am looking forward to Wildstar's release so much, because I feel that Wildstar is such a WOW clone, that it's fail will knock some sense into the MMORPG developers world.

  Nadia

Tipster

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11792

1/06/14 4:21:30 PM#68
Originally posted by syriinx

2.  Linearity is bad.  WoW was far from linear, and also you couldnt see everything on one, or even two, characters.  Now everyone is funneled through the same zone progression and when time comes to roll an alt, youve already seen it all

WOW did a great job of this but EQ1 was admirable too - there were 8 different starting areas for EQ at launch

DAOC only had 3 realms that still gave enough variety for alts

  Furiant

Novice Member

Joined: 7/11/10
Posts: 16

1/06/14 4:25:01 PM#69
At this point I would pay any subscription fee for a clone of WoW Vanilla. I miss it more than I've enjoyed any game in the past 6 years.
  syriinx

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/24/13
Posts: 996

1/06/14 4:27:35 PM#70
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by syriinx

2.  Linearity is bad.  WoW was far from linear, and also you couldnt see everything on one, or even two, characters.  Now everyone is funneled through the same zone progression and when time comes to roll an alt, youve already seen it all

WOW did a great job of this but EQ1 was admirable too - there were 8 different starting areas for EQ at launch

DAOC only had 3 realms that still gave enough variety for alts

Yes, most of my list applies to WoW and the games that preceded but not what came after

  gunmanvlad

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/23/07
Posts: 161

1/06/14 4:29:23 PM#71

I think WoW was successful because it correctly captured the essence of a very fun lore setting (Warcraft), and it made things both easy for new players and hard for veterans.

 

The problem I see with most MMOs is that they simply do not usually have the same IP behind them. SWTOR had the IP, got the biiiiig numbers at the start...but the game was not an MMO, so it failed medium/long term. Games like GW2 simply did not have the IP, and others like TSW failed a bit in both IP and gameplay (I still find TSW the most mind-blowingly-epic story-based MMO out there, but stopped after finishing the quests...).

 

A WOW clone needs to have a BIG IP and a GREAT gameplay (not only fighting, but having a well rounded system). ESO has some potential to be a true modern WoW-clone, same with EQN...Wildstar less so imo (from this perspective).

 

Lets be fair tho: MMO players are some of the biggest whiners out there! They will trash every goddamned game/story/word/world, usually just to justify their miserable existence of a 30-year-old who realises he's mostly unemployed and has no real future, yet tries to find some meaning in smashing pixels 10 hours a day for years on end...

 

 

  syriinx

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/24/13
Posts: 996

1/06/14 4:36:37 PM#72
Originally posted by gunmanvlad

I think WoW was successful because it correctly captured the essence of a very fun lore setting (Warcraft), and it made things both easy for new players and hard for veterans.

 

The problem I see with most MMOs is that they simply do not usually have the same IP behind them. SWTOR had the IP, got the biiiiig numbers at the start...but the game was not an MMO, so it failed medium/long term. Games like GW2 simply did not have the IP, and others like TSW failed a bit in both IP and gameplay (I still find TSW the most mind-blowingly-epic story-based MMO out there, but stopped after finishing the quests...).

 

A WOW clone needs to have a BIG IP and a GREAT gameplay (not only fighting, but having a well rounded system). ESO has some potential to be a true modern WoW-clone, same with EQN...Wildstar less so imo (from this perspective).

 

Lets be fair tho: MMO players are some of the biggest whiners out there! They will trash every goddamned game/story/word/world, usually just to justify their miserable existence of a 30-year-old who realises he's mostly unemployed and has no real future, yet tries to find some meaning in smashing pixels 10 hours a day for years on end...

 

 

a game does NOT need a big IP.  Well, to put up WoW numbers it does.  But the other two games to have 500k maintained subs in the west are both original IPs, EQ and EvE.

 

The game world and lore certainly matters though, which really hurts a lot of games like Rift.

  muppetpilot

Novice Member

Joined: 7/07/12
Posts: 53

1/06/14 4:47:47 PM#73

I think that many times, when the term "WoW Clone" is used in derogatory fashion or when hatred is spit at Blizzard or WoW, it generally comes from jealousy.  I would like all of the anti-WoW fanbois to name one, just ONE, mmo that has even sniffed the success that WoW has had.  Can't help but notice the absolute silence when that question is asked.

And believe me, I am no WoW fanboi.  The game is a good one but it has its warts, just like any other video game, mmo or otherwise.  That being said, though, it has done a sensational job of not only hanging on to its existing players but also bringing new ones into the fold, especially with its expansions; WoD will be no different.  I would expect that once this new expansion launches, WoW will probably surpass ten million subscribers again.

I think that most of the WoW haters wish their game was a "WoW Clone" in terms of playability, ease of UI control, flow of combat, stability of economy, size of player base, and responsiveness.  Again, much of the hatred simply comes from jealousy.  How many so-called "WoW killers" have we seen over the past several years?  Do a little research and you'll find that almost all of those games are f2p now. 

  RajCaj

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/11/08
Posts: 684

1/06/14 4:54:13 PM#74
Originally posted by Consensus

I haven't played very much UO or WoW, but in my small experience the two are nothing alike really. I can't see how WoW could have built on ideas in UO.

Sure "WoW clone" is a compliment if you like WoW, or judge games purely on their success, but personally I do neither. And its not so much an insult as a description of a genre of mmorpg's. Since a huge proportion of mmorpg's have near identicle gameplay to WoW, such a term is useful to those who did not enjoy WoW.

The term mmorpg has become a dirty word that some developers avoid to escape wrong assumptions being made about their games. to the vast majority who don't play many mmo's the term mmorpg literally means "WoW with different graphics".

Fair assessment, and I have played both UO & WOW extensively and I can confirm that they are indeed nothing alike. (atleast not the version of UO that existed during it's "hay-day")

 

The similarities that exist are only limited to the general fantasy setting, and your avatar can swing weapons, or wield magic, to go out adventuring.

 

Outside of that, they couldn't be more different...considering they are in the same genere of games.

 

I think you had a bunch of AAA studio heads that saw the massive success Blizzard had in the MMO space, and wanted in on the action.  With the kind of money they had to invest in their attempt to upseat WOW, they played it safe by keeping the game as familiar as possible (as to not alienate this massive social / casual playerbase, with a few gimmicks & feature changes in a thinly veiled effort to differentiate themselves.

 

I think they figured that keeping the game similar would serve as a easy & painless transition to THEIR game, given how people typically reject change.

 

That said, I don't think they really understood the dynamics of how things were playing out for folks that have been playing WOW for a long time, and were looking for a change.   When those 4-5+ year vets left WOW to try the latest "clone", those folks carried their fatigue with WOW's brand of MMO gaming with them, and the burn-out timer never reset when they got into the new game, beause they were so darned similar.  Fast forward 1 month, after all the novelty of the cheap gimmicks wore off (wings, light sabers, open world public events) most of the folks that migrated from WOW ended up going back.

 

Anyway, I agree with you in that the term is useful when discussing games in the MMO space, in general terms.

  Hrimnir

Elite Member

Joined: 5/24/10
Posts: 1223

1/06/14 4:56:06 PM#75
Originally posted by Furiant
At this point I would pay any subscription fee for a clone of WoW Vanilla. I miss it more than I've enjoyed any game in the past 6 years.

Yea.  Wait until people start telling you to take off your rose colored glasses.  Or, my personal favorite, "if you like wow (eq) so much, why dont you go play it!".  Etc, etc.

"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

- Friedrich Nietzsche

  Tibernicuspa

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/03/13
Posts: 1008

1/06/14 4:57:39 PM#76
Originally posted by Antiquated

Wow discarded systems from previous games that didn't work well, and tuned the working parts well enough to essentially define how they worked (in all new titles) for the next decade.

Uh... not really. They discarded most of the complicated features, whether they worked well or not (like player housing), and released a version of EverQuest, with both the best and worst parts removed.

WoW's design is not noteworthy, it's marketing was.

 

Originally posted by Jafotron

Think someone made a good point, between WoW clone and Theme park clone. Yea there are games that have outright copied Wow, but when people call something a Wow clone and i look at it, and it has one or two features in common, but has so many things that make it it's own game

Seriously? What AAA MMORPG in the last 8 years would you say only had one or two features in common with WoW? The only one I can think of is Vanguard, and no one accused it of being a WoW clone.

Maybe you never played pre WoW MMOs, so you aren't aware just how radically different MMOs used to be from one another, and see the tiny insignificant differences as bigger than they are. GW2 is the only themepark I've played that I wouldn't call a WoW clone. Games like LotRO are just WoW with different art styles and one or two gimmicks.
  Tibernicuspa

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/03/13
Posts: 1008

1/06/14 5:02:01 PM#77
Originally posted by Hrimnir
Originally posted by Furiant
At this point I would pay any subscription fee for a clone of WoW Vanilla. I miss it more than I've enjoyed any game in the past 6 years.

Yea.  Wait until people start telling you to take off your rose colored glasses.  Or, my personal favorite, "if you like wow (eq) so much, why dont you go play it!".  Etc, etc.

I find it odd that people miss Vanilla WoW. Their reasons for missing it is "Well it had more community and it was harder!" Why would you ever play WOW for those two reasons? If you value those things in an MMO, Vanilla WoW was probably the worst choice you could have made at the time.

 

  Tibernicuspa

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/03/13
Posts: 1008

1/06/14 5:08:02 PM#78
Originally posted by muppetpilot

I think that many times, when the term "WoW Clone" is used in derogatory fashion or when hatred is spit at Blizzard or WoW, it generally comes from jealousy.  I would like all of the anti-WoW fanbois to name one, just ONE, mmo that has even sniffed the success that WoW has had.

What does success have to do with anything? The most successful musicians are not the best musicians, the most successful fast food chains are not the best food. It seems subscription numbers is the only thing WoW fans can lay claim to to defend their game. The gameplay doesn't stand up on its own.

I think that most of the WoW haters wish their game was a "WoW Clone" in terms of playability a nonsense word, if you mean how casual it is, or good for casual players, there are literally hundreds of WoW clones that are just as casual, and tons of games aimed at younger audiences that are even more casual than WoW, ease of UI control most MMOs these days have the same UI that WoW has, which is a pretty shitty UI. And WoW is not the only MMO to allow custom UI by any stretch, flow of combat again, dozens of other MMOs have this, stability of economy not only is that laughably false, but that's not really a big selling point, size of player base not relavent even a little, unless you're pointing out how obnoxious most of the WoW community is, next, and responsiveness Yes, WoW is responsive. NO WoW is not the only responsive MMO, or the most responsive. .  Again, much of the hatred simply comes from jealousy. No, it comes from how shitty the genre has become after WoW's success. Even if you like WoW, how can you possibly say its a good thing that all MMOs after it are just copy and pasted WoW clones? There's already a WoW for people who like WoW.  How many so-called "WoW killers" have we seen over the past several years? None, because WoW is a fluke that sprang from timing and marketing, not its design or features. No sensible person ever used the word WoW killer.  Do a little research and you'll find that almost all of those games are f2p now.

Do a little research and you'll realize that WoW has very little to it that deserves praise.

  kjempff

Elite Member

Joined: 10/12/04
Posts: 779

Make worlds not stories

1/06/14 5:18:23 PM#79
Originally posted by adam_nox 

But instead they eliminated real world pvp, turned pvp into battleground bs, the game was dominated by raiding or arena bs, just bs after bs.  I can't even sound intelligent when I talk about it because of how stupid it all was and how it's just not even worth my time trying to pretty up my language.  It's just so stupid.  And game after game tried to copy them but just failed, over and over.   Until we get to 2014.  Nearly 10 years after it's release and the mmo genre is a wasteland of non-mmos, because even the definition of the term has been completely corrupted in it's wake by names like guild wars and neverwinter.

So angry, but true. However if I don't think its fair to blame WoW for the genre degeneration. Things just happen, and in retrospect it is always easy to see what went wrong.

  waynejr2

Elite Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3881

RIP City of Heroes!

1/06/14 5:31:22 PM#80
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by RajCaj

 IMO, Blizard DID create something new.  How else do you go from EQ topping out at 1 million subs, to WOW getting 8+ million right out the gate?  Their IP did help them, but for the most part, they intentionally removed parts of MMO gaming that turned many of the folks that tried n' dumped UO & EQ.  I remember seeing an interview from one of the Blizzard guys that worked on WOW where he said their express intent was to go out and remove the time sinks, remove the harsh pentalties, make things more user friendly....remove all of those "barriers to entry".

WOW didnt have 8 million out of the gate but it did grow to that

in leaps and bounds that were unprecented in mmos

 

first day WOW sales  (link fixed)
https://web.archive.org/web/20060216205501/http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/world-of-warcraft/569888p1.html

April 2005, WOW claimed 1.5 mill
http://www.gamershell.com/companies/blizzard_entertainment/219363.html

http://news.softpedia.com/news/World-of-Warcraft-1-5-million-subscribers-1549.shtml


June 2005, 2 million
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=5696#.UJEWi4aM-yo

July 2005, WOW claimed 1.5 mill  in Asia contrast to 2mill US/EU

Blizzard's China Success Spawns 3.5 Million WoW Userbase July 21, 2005

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=5989

 

there are many reasons for success for WOW

among them is Blizzard, as a game company, already had millions of fans

2002 article:  Of Orcs and millionaires

http://money.cnn.com/2002/07/17/commentary/game_over/column_gaming/index.htm

I don't see how facts are going to help!

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