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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Conspiracy to Bash The Elder Scrolls Online?

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  Comaf

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/13/10
Posts: 1126

I want an mmorpg where pvp matters, my enemies are not my race or class, and community matters.

 
OP  1/03/14 4:36:28 PM#1

Like the title states, I had this sudden thought in this age of cyber warfare and outright cold war internet subterfuge between companies (the DOS attack on WoW the other night was ample proof of this being alive and well and let's not forget about the Sony Playstation Network hack of last year). 

 

Point is, if the new "thing" in the industry is to mass produce F2P games that are mediocre in quality (so we don't have to budget any big writers or thinkers) and yet make a respectable dollar with cash shop offerings, wouldn't it make sense to bash something that could detract from this newer production market in the mmo industry?

 

I'm not sure I recall this much pre-bashing of a title, perhaps of low budged free for all pvp affairs but not some mega budget game with a recognizable title.  But I have a tiny thought on why this might be happening.

 

Anyone who's watched campaign politics knows full well that bashing the other guy is overly and disgustingly common.  In this industry, we can have the same standard.  The f2P guys have lobbyists of sorts as well and plenty of smear add to go around.

 

So, here's this new title coming out in April, i.e., The Elder Scrolls Online.  This title boasts a few things that would be a pain in the rear for a studio to produce.  In short, this title has a $200,000,000 pricetag (so the voices are whispering on the cyberwaves).  There is little room for fail and yes, Star Wars: The Old Replublic is proof that you can't just hang a title on a flop of a game and expect success - you still have to make a good product.

 

What the f2P and smaller traditional pay monthly projects might be worried about:

1.  Three realms.  Who even does this?  Sure there are a few pseudo tri-realm titles in sci fi FPS and lower end budget titles in general, but nothing anyone is chatting it up about at E3 or Gamescom. 

2.  The three realms have different races.  Again, who does this?  We live in an age where a game can be released with 4 archetypes and 5 races as standard.  Did you know there's a game out there since 2001 that has 44 races and 24 classes in three separte realms?  I actually had a guy laugh at me about that on a thread.  I told him to look it up and never heard from him again (thank you Dark Age of Camelot for raising the bar so high that most can't even see it).

The competition offers 2 faction games galore and no faction games where guilds are the faction themselves.  These simpler takes on politics in an mmorpg save money and time. 

2.a. (A side note)  The classes are the same:  I think this is a lame mistake but at least it's nothing for the folks at RIFT to be worried about.  By now we've realized that developers fear losing players to such an extent that they are afraid that if one class seems to be better than another (this is a pvp game issue only), that there's an unfair event going on.  So, make all the classes the same and folks won't complain.  However, the side effect is a bunch of flavor of the month builds within each classless class that everyone copies.  Hence originality, and a sense of uniqueness (something lacking in mmo video games) is all but obliterated.

3. (back to what makes this title a threat) PvP is massive scale, it matters, and it's a title built to include all the theme park pve goodies folks like PLUS a reason to don one's armor and defend the realm.  NO ONE does this.  If you want more info on why this pvp matters, look up the title and read about it.  Simply put, in today's pvp mmo experience, what Bob's guild does in a battleground does nothing for Bob's faction.  That lowly serf of a warrior who is killing wolves for a pair of crappy boots has no benefit to the heroes of his realm taking territory from 2 possible enemy factions.  In TESO, your realm will benefit from the victories of its heroes, just like it's supposed to be.

4.  Each realm/faction, has its own land.  This isn't everyone has a small starting racially profiled zone and then branches into endless shared zones where people pvp each other in the face because of guild/bi-faction variation.  This is UNHEARD of.  What titles can you level to end game in what is truly your own land.  You wouldn't see an English knight riding his stallion through France during the War of Roses...and you sure won't see the enemy roaming around your same quest locations doing the same mindless drudgery of killing this and that - toss in some random pvp and the end level griefers that are bored.

What are some things we are missing in The Elder Scrolls Online?

Gone is the world of Tauren paladins and the endless expansion gear grind that makes your hard work valueless. 

Gone is the mercenary system where we suddenly have races that the lore states are at war, working together to fill blank slots in immediate gratification battlegrounds and Rifts that never in truth change a single thing about the world other than adding to predictable repetitive experiences. 

Gone is the world of necromancers running through Cimmeria with a boatload of undead pets and not being killed on sight. 

Gone is my Asura, Human, Charr, Norn group, killing your Human, Charr, Norn, Asura team in an E-Sport battleground. 

Gone is the free to play cash shop that proves to us that had we lots of real life $$$ we could win.

Gone is that feeling that you are just a copy paste of the guy you fight in pvp, because he has your same exact class animations and abilities...oh wait - that part still remains (can't have everything, I guess).  At least we can't kill our own race...nothing kills RP or lore for me faster than this in a fantasy environment.  Yes, humans kill humans, but would light elves really kill each other en masse in pvp? Tolkien's elves had to be twisted and mutated, and in essence, become a different race, before they killed their own kind.  That's too much lore for a developer to consider these days, sadly, and so is TESO's lore offering.

 

So perhaps all of this is frustrating other companies.  What if (in their worst case scenario) TESO turns out to be a decent game (I didn't say great, to be fair)...but what if it holds its own?  The functions the game offers haven't been built on this scale since 2001 (Dark Age of Camelot).  People will become educated to (a) that a monthly sub title can provide a lot more quality than their typical F2P fare and (b) that the common gamer will have raised expectations. 

 

For once, gamers who play TESO might state:  What? Your game has 5 classes and races?  That's it?  They are all forced to meet up in the same exact quest zones?  Your pvp is in an instanced battleground?  That sounds rather processed...You mean they don't have their own lands and territories to grow and develop in? My game has 3 realms...they are three different realms.  We have territory to fight over and if we win at taking a castle or defending one, little Johnny Gamer gets a bonus.  PvP matters and hence the lore and RPG viability of this game will matter. 

 

So yeah, in TESO, lore matters, faction matters, the politics that would actually occur, matter.  This means that immersion will matter.  For once, I won't feel like I'm dumping quarters into a video game slot while waiting for my instant button pve/pvp experience group to appear before me.

 

This is unheard of.

 

 

  Tamanous

Elite Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 1632

1/03/14 4:45:52 PM#2

Most of what you said has been summed up are realm pride. This is a big thing in Camelot Unchained (and carried over from DAoC). This is something missing entirely from most mmos and I miss it dearly.

 

ESO may have vast improvements in this area but I simply await playing it to know for myself. The game play has to be good too.

 

As to your conspiracy theory? Dunno.

You stay sassy!

  sunandshadow

Elite Member

Joined: 12/05/13
Posts: 516

1/03/14 4:48:32 PM#3
Personally I think that simply playing Skyrim created player anticipation for what an Elder Scrolls mmo could be like, that the actual ESO isn't trying to be.  This discrepancy alone can account for most negative reaction to descriptions of what ESO is going to be like.  It's just not going to be Skyrim online or Skyrim 2 or anything particularly close to that.
  Zorgo

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2188

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

1/03/14 4:55:41 PM#4

Yes there is a conspiracy. 

Shut it down folks,  they are on to us.

I've burned our secret meeting place to the ground and destroyed my phone. 

I recommend all others in the cell do the same.

/sarcasm off.

  Quirhid

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5492

I dare you to pin a label on me.

1/03/14 4:57:53 PM#5
There is no conspiracy. Are you upset TESO is not receiving the attention you think it should, or is this something else entirely?

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Comaf

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/13/10
Posts: 1126

I want an mmorpg where pvp matters, my enemies are not my race or class, and community matters.

 
OP  1/03/14 4:58:03 PM#6
Originally posted by Tamanous

Most of what you said has been summed up are realm pride. This is a big thing in Camelot Unchained (and carried over from DAoC). This is something missing entirely from most mmos and I miss it dearly.

 

ESO may have vast improvements in this area but I simply await playing it to know for myself. The game play has to be good too.

 

As to your conspiracy theory? Dunno.

I'm doing my best to not think about Camelot Unchained.  For me, this is the "chosen one," the "golden-child," so to speak.  I'm actually hoping it's a niche game that has enough players to keep it well and alive but isn't so big that it can't meet its own budget down the road (unless it's a wild success!).

 

I'm not completely bought into my conspiracy theory.  But it would make sense if a competitive car company has something in the works, that my car company will have a department of folks whose job it will be to make counter commercials (our car is best in class, etc) and Car & Driver reports that state inadequacies of the vehicle once it's mass produced and sold.

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6546

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

1/03/14 4:58:11 PM#7
Originally posted by sunandshadow
Personally I think that simply playing Skyrim created player anticipation for what an Elder Scrolls mmo could be like, that the actual ESO isn't trying to be.  This discrepancy alone can account for most negative reaction to descriptions of what ESO is going to be like.  It's just not going to be Skyrim online or Skyrim 2 or anything particularly close to that.

I quit Skyrim after about 3 days of playing,grossly over rated game.Unlike many other games i went back to try,Skyrim sits and collects dust,i wanted to give it away to a lady friend but she is not interested either.

I simply wait to see what ESO turns out for a product,i couldn't care less who makes it,publishes it what anyone else says about it.I play the game for myself and make decisions on my own.Just like i hate hand holding in games,i don't need my hand held to make a decision on the game either.

I would dearly love for ESO to be a masterful game,i have nothing at all to play right now.Since my early days of FFXI,i really had extremely high hopes for his genre,it has fallen miles off the pace of which i thought the genre would advance.

Remember 15 years ago we thought we would be playing in a virtual world with maybe a hand glove to control combat and our player,then we saw glimpses of physics and realistic graphics and player movement?

I highly doubt ESo is going to break the current same old,but i would be more than happy to see them create something unique and different from linear questing and yellow markers all over the game.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  LittleBoot

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/08/13
Posts: 336

1/03/14 5:00:12 PM#8
Originally posted by sunandshadow
Personally I think that simply playing Skyrim created player anticipation for what an Elder Scrolls mmo could be like, that the actual ESO isn't trying to be.  This discrepancy alone can account for most negative reaction to descriptions of what ESO is going to be like.  It's just not going to be Skyrim online or Skyrim 2 or anything particularly close to that.

This for me is the problem; it appears it is just going to be another generic, unimaginative mmo using a popular IP to shift boxes (in a rather misleading way given that people will make the connection to the single player game).  All off this strikes me as rather mercenary.  

However, most people who have played Skyrim will understand it can only ever work as a single player game (or perhaps as a very limited multi-player); therefore, I am not quite sure what market the mmo is aiming for.  It clearly could only ever be a veil of Elder Scrolls draped over the same old mmo mechanics.  It is inevitably going to leave a lot of people disappointed.   

  Comaf

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/13/10
Posts: 1126

I want an mmorpg where pvp matters, my enemies are not my race or class, and community matters.

 
OP  1/03/14 5:03:09 PM#9
Originally posted by Quirhid
There is no conspiracy. Are you upset TESO is not receiving the attention you think it should, or is this something else entirely?

"There is no conspiracy," while in all probability is the most logical response to my "I wonder if there is a conspiracy going on" thread, is too affirmative.  I always am wary of such affirmative statements, i.e., there is no conspiracy does not equivocate very well in a world that is historically inundated with proven conspiracies.

 

Secondly, not upset at all.  Frustrated that the minds at Zenimax have allowed for such god-awful game mechanics at its most basic level, but I love the rest of the game and feel that while it is garnering a lot of positive attention, its getting an unheralded amount of negative attention - which was the point of my, "is there a conspiracy at hand?" thread.

 

For god's sakes, Forbes Predicting Biggest Disaster of 2014...seems to be a pretty extreme example of what I'm stating.  What a waste of an article, in my opinion. 

 

  reeereee

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/22/13
Posts: 685

1/03/14 5:04:50 PM#10

I'm highly skeptical it's a conspiracy though it does seem odd.  I think it is mostly coming from disgruntled Skyrim fans who aren't getting exactly what they want and the sandbox fans (as ESO is clearly not a sandbox.)

 

But these are same forums that heaped unending praise on gw2 for the better part of a year until it launched and everyone found out it was terrible.  Maybe people are just finally wising up and learning to be skeptical?  Still that doesn't seem to explain it all.

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4342

1/03/14 5:08:45 PM#11

One of our biggest failing as people we have is a lack of the ability to understand other peoples choices. We create all these elaborate reasons and put an impressive amount of work into them...like a conspiracy to do EVIL!!! but we never really put much effort into understanding why someone would pick something we don't like.

And that is the simple truth behind most of these things. It's not a conspiracy, it's just other people making a different choice than we would.

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  Jacxolope

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/15/13
Posts: 740

1/03/14 5:09:12 PM#12

I know I am repeating myself here (I say this on every thread) but I will be buying ESO and I already am prepared to not enjoy it- If I do, great.

Someone mentioned Skyrim. I personally liked it (better than Oblivion which I hated) but it was sub par for ES game outside the awesome graphics- Thing is, my copy of Morrowind still looks better after being heavily modded and has keptt my interest for over 10 years and counting. Skyrim was great for a few months imho.

 

I guess my main problem is that I think the ES games would be fantastic with multi-player but not really as an MMORPG exactly.

 

Would love to be able to share the regular world with a few friends and for some of the content to be designed so that the difficulty level merits this.

 

I see no conspiracy and understand the 'hate'. Like I said, I am going to try this but am not expecting muxch and only because I have played every ES game to date. I think the publisher is banking on people like me. Hopefully they produce a worthwhile game...Probably not though.

  Margulis

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/14/08
Posts: 1643

1/03/14 5:10:32 PM#13

It's the current cool trend in the mmo world - always has to be a main game to bash on and it's usually the biggest target that takes the heat.  What it isn't fair that Wildstar is the most anticipated MMO of 2014 on this site but ESO continually gets so much heat for being "too much of a themepark clone?".  :P  The irony.

 

Kidding aside, the devs didn't do themselves any favors by making the biggest single player sandbox style mmo into a PvP RvR focused MMO.  It's like making a Mario mmo an online strategy game.

  Comaf

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/13/10
Posts: 1126

I want an mmorpg where pvp matters, my enemies are not my race or class, and community matters.

 
OP  1/03/14 5:11:03 PM#14
Originally posted by LittleBoot
Originally posted by sunandshadow
Personally I think that simply playing Skyrim created player anticipation for what an Elder Scrolls mmo could be like, that the actual ESO isn't trying to be.  This discrepancy alone can account for most negative reaction to descriptions of what ESO is going to be like.  It's just not going to be Skyrim online or Skyrim 2 or anything particularly close to that.

This for me is the problem; it appears it is just going to be another generic, unimaginative mmo using a popular IP to shift boxes (in a rather misleading way given that people will make the connection to the single player game).  All off this strikes me as rather mercenary.  

However, most people who have played Skyrim will understand it can only ever work as a single player game (or perhaps as a very limited multi-player); therefore, I am not quite sure what market the mmo is aiming for.  It clearly could only ever be a veil of Elder Scrolls draped over the same old mmo mechanics.  It is inevitably going to leave a lot of people disappointed.   

Sadly, I dare say every noted mmoRPG since Vivindi/Blizzard Entertainment's 2004 release, has been deemed disappointing in one aspect or another - in regards to proof's in the pudding falling subscription numbers. 

 

So, what you say is fair, in a sense, that Zenimax made a mercenary move to use a well known title to move boxes - but that is only if the product really isn't any fun.  They never said this is Skyrim Online, or Daggerfall, or Oblivion Online, or what have you.  Elder Scrolls was referenced to bring familiarity as to what the world theme might be.  If WARcraft rpgs  can be turned into a massively multiplayer PVE game where pvp was this down the road extra a few years later...then I dare say TESO should be in the clear on this one.  The Skyrim folks merely need to read up on the proposed time period and lore - and I believe they have done this. 

 

It's the endless posts about how fail this game will be that seems to be a bit overdone - to such an extent that I'm seeing an agenda of counter-marketing.  Counter-marketing is a very basic concept that exists in every industry.

 

  Comaf

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/13/10
Posts: 1126

I want an mmorpg where pvp matters, my enemies are not my race or class, and community matters.

 
OP  1/03/14 5:11:56 PM#15
Originally posted by Margulis
It's the current cool trend in the mmo world - always has to be a main game to bash on and it's usually the biggest target that takes the heat.  What it isn't fair that Wildstar is the most anticipated MMO of 2014 on this site but ESO continually gets so much heat for being "too much of a themepark clone?".  :P  

I have my own negative I don't want to get banned or in trouble here opinions on why Wildstar is the most anticipated MMO of 2014 ;p

  Comaf

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/13/10
Posts: 1126

I want an mmorpg where pvp matters, my enemies are not my race or class, and community matters.

 
OP  1/03/14 5:15:57 PM#16
Originally posted by Jacxolope

I know I am repeating myself here (I say this on every thread) but I will be buying ESO and I already am prepared to not enjoy it- If I do, great.

Someone mentioned Skyrim. I personally liked it (better than Oblivion which I hated) but it was sub par for ES game outside the awesome graphics- Thing is, my copy of Morrowind still looks better after being heavily modded and has keptt my interest for over 10 years and counting. Skyrim was great for a few months imho.

 

I guess my main problem is that I think the ES games would be fantastic with multi-player but not really as an MMORPG exactly.

 

Would love to be able to share the regular world with a few friends and for some of the content to be designed so that the difficulty level merits this.

 

I see no conspiracy and understand the 'hate'. Like I said, I am going to try this but am not expecting muxch and only because I have played every ES game to date. I think the publisher is banking on people like me. Hopefully they produce a worthwhile game...Probably not though.

Sadly, this might be the safest route for any player of any title these days.  "Hopefully they produce a worthwhite game...Probably not though."

 

I sometimes wonder as to why the world in which developers and the money backers behind them, live in such a different world from the very market they seek to profit from.  But then I look at Hollywood's blunders.  I see endless hubris and greed (people scrambling to get their name in a Marvel Comics franchise movie, for example).  Perhaps the game industry is no different.  EA's release of Battlefield 4 and the subsequent court case...Movies like the Green Lantern and Conan being movies that should have never been produced...and so forth.

 

It does seem like the talent that truly loves the fantasy gaming genre isn't getting the funding they need to make a title. 

  LittleBoot

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/08/13
Posts: 336

1/03/14 5:18:09 PM#17
Originally posted by Comaf
Originally posted by Margulis
It's the current cool trend in the mmo world - always has to be a main game to bash on and it's usually the biggest target that takes the heat.  What it isn't fair that Wildstar is the most anticipated MMO of 2014 on this site but ESO continually gets so much heat for being "too much of a themepark clone?".  :P  

I have my own negative I don't want to get banned or in trouble here opinions on why Wildstar is the most anticipated MMO of 2014 ;p

I think it is because Wildstar is an unabashed themepark trying to basically recreate/ update a wow vanilla type experience.  I don't think anyone is really expecting anything else, and I am looking forward to that very pitch.  

ESO is taking an open world rather sand-parky game which gives a lot of freedom to players and putting it on rails, but keeping the IP.  

Personally I think that explains the difference in reactions.  

  greenreen

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 1391

1/03/14 5:19:09 PM#18

That's why we have to be skeptical with what we read without evidence. Even if someone says they are in a beta, you don't know that.

When money is on the line companies absolutely have hired people to give them internet buzz or remark against their competitors. Some of the largest companies even were caught buying followers on social networks. I make websites for a living and we have been asked to make things like that especially auto-voters though none of the companies have been gaming yet. Some call it viral marketing or guerilla.

It's intriguing to think about the espionage when you read things so I think you have to view everything from a critical perspective. Sometimes when I read something that someone calls racist online I flip the races used and ask myself if it's still racist coming from another race or if it's only racist if another race states it. See Jackson and Sharpton.

Do I personally think there is a big conspiracy by the free games to squash all sub games because they don't want to put as much work into their games and genuinely compete on gameplay? I don't know. Right now, I think that a multi-company partnership to do this is not happening. I know though that shills are sent out, I've witnessed that from other companies.

Saying this I do think it's awfully strange that a company that just sold 20 million versions of a game is getting press in multiple places that says their next project will fail - sight unseen. At best, anyone who has seen the product has only seen a test of the working code, not the final version. I've never seen so much negative press about a game. What is prompting it.

Let's pretend there are 20 people working on the game though there are likely more. The game is supposed to release in April. Those people work 40 hours a week up until the release date (though nearing a project end many companies work overtime).

In this hypothetical, there are 20 people *40 hours a week * 17 weeks = 13,600 hours of work which are still unseen progress.

If I told you today to judge my project that still had 13k hours of work to do - would you say that you could tell me if my product is good or not or that you would need to see the final to make that decision. That sort of things runs through my mind.

I can state one constant in the complaints made - they revolve around it being a sub model so that lends favor to a grand conspiracy lol

 

 

 

 

 

  Toferio

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/26/09
Posts: 1455

1/03/14 5:23:54 PM#19
It all sounds fine on paper, but I'll ahve to wait and see how it's implemented. There is no conspiracy to bash the game, simply some hardcore lore and elder scrolls gameplay fans who dislike how TESO handled it.
  DanitaKusor

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/17/09
Posts: 528

1/03/14 5:28:12 PM#20

I don't think there is a conspiracy to bash the game. This sort of negative commenting happens with a lot of games and it's usually for very good reasons.

I myself will give the game a go at launch but if it doesn't excite me I won't be sticking with it.

The Enlightened take things Lightly

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