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General Discussion  » Will the PvP area be a zerg fest?

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91 posts found
  DrunkWolf

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/07/09
Posts: 1072

 
OP  12/31/13 3:18:58 PM#1

Im wondering about how this 3 faction pvp all fighting in the middle will turn out.  I like to pvp but what i dont like is to zerg pvp, I use to love battles with groups over hunting spots and such in open world games, but when i tried GW2 with 3 areas fighting in one it was just a giant zerg fest. and thats not really for me.

Just looking for any info or opinions on how this might work out.

and also i see they have keeps? are these kind of like warhammer keeps that will just be flip flopped over and over? or do you actually own the keep for awhile?

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3778

12/31/13 3:32:46 PM#2

Depends on what you personally mean by "zerg fest"

 

A lot of scenario PvP addicts consider anything that isn't 16 vs. 16 at the most a "zerg fest"... if that's you, then yes, hopefully it will have a lot of "zerg festing" because that means the PvP is working as designed...

 

If you mean "nothing but zergs flipping keeps" as in WAR, then no, it shouldn't be like that because they seem to be taking measures to make defending the keep you take something you'll want to do.

 

I played both DAoC and WAR. A large battle with a lot of people in DAoC with good coordination and chains of command from alliances and the guilds in those alliances, felt like an epic fight--especially if it was a Relic Keep fight.

 

WAR, OTOH, was just 2 large groups of strangers that kept dropping in and out whenever the next scenario popped, capturing undefended keeps over and over again to farm points.

 

More DAOC and less WAR is what I hope to see, but to some, especially those who have never done any organized large scale PvP, it will be "just a zerg fest." ... their loss.

  Gravarg

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 8/24/06
Posts: 3094

12/31/13 3:36:52 PM#3
By zergfest if you mean just masses of people running around killing everyone then I hope not.  I think it will be more like DAoC, with organized massive battles over towns, keeps, resources, etc.
  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15527

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

12/31/13 3:40:59 PM#4
Yes, by design. By that I mean it's designed for large scale PVP.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  Pigglesworth

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/02/13
Posts: 266

12/31/13 5:59:22 PM#5
More to get caught in my AoE spells. I plan to specialize all my morphs into AoEs.

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  greenreen

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 1440

1/02/14 8:44:41 PM#6

They don't say anything about length of duration for keeps in this but they do say there are areas that are your faction's. I don't know if that is permanent or what like where you spawn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Txk859S630k

From this video they talk about how there will be different instances so if you don't like one campaign, you might be able to switch to another. That starts about 6 minutes in - they talk about thousands of people in each campaign. You can guest or be in other campaigns so you probably aren't stuck fighting A players if you consider yourself B player or want to avoid groups you particularly dislike that do zerg. The length of campaigns is said to be 3 months once released but for testing has been 48 hour reset. That sounds to me like someone would have to work really hard to keep a zerg up compared to GW2 where they reset more often.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzBTfdzSdvo

If it's anything like Skyrim, you hurt friendly players if they are in the way and you have to target something with a reticule instead of maintaining a lock on them with tab targeting. Those things alone would discourage zergs because where you stand matters. I have already set my friendly characters in Skyrim on fire so I've seen that happen. 

According to this (which is from 2012 - not recent) I don't know if things have changed at all since this was written.

This game is hard as heck to find information about it that is clear. I'm in the midst of trying to compile a list of known things for myself.

Here is a site talking about it.

http://tamrielfoundry.com/2012/10/combat-in-teso/

They say it's a mixed system.

http://tamrielfoundry.com/2012/12/targeting-in-eso/

What we can tell you right now is that the targeting system is very similar to what you experienced when you visited us for the preview event. Like in Skyrim, your attacks go where your reticle is aimed. So, while we don’t have traditional tab-targeting, we do have a system where if enemies are close together, you can tab to select the one you wish to hit. Think of this more as an aid to aiming, and this can be especially effective for ranged combat.

All targeting is ultimately based on where your reticle is aimed–when you have your reticle aimed at a monster (or group of monsters) you can lock onto a target and even cycle through a group to select the one you want to attack. In the case of monsters that are closely stacked on each other, the one you have ‘selected’ is the one your attacks will hit. If your reticle is clearly on one target but your target-aid is on another target, you will still hit the target your reticle is on. Also, you must be facing your target to hit them.

There’s a bit more to the targeting and aiming system than that (and we’ll go into more detail in the Ask Us Anything and upcoming combat-centric community content), but hopefully that gives you a general idea. As with anything in development, just keep in mind that this is subject to change.

  artemisentr4

Elite Member

Joined: 12/25/08
Posts: 1439

1/02/14 9:24:20 PM#7

Good article about Cyrodiil from Tamriel Foundry. http://tamrielfoundry.com/2013/12/understanding-cyrodiil/

This quote is one point from the article. Sounds like it will be too costly to zerg over and over.

"Sieges and Alliance Points

Ultimately, everything will come down to control of keeps, castles, and resources. Regardless if you are on the offensive front lines or struggling to defend your own territory, you will require siege equipment. These weapons and resources will be key to any effective attack or defense. The attacking force won’t be able to break down a keep’s door or wall without heavy weaponry and will have a much harder time claiming the keep itself without having first secured all the resources surrounding the keep. Likewise, as a defender, employing counter-siege equipment like boiling oil and ballistae buys you time needed to reinforce and hold an objective. It will also be crucial to maintain control of the resource network which surround each keep. Not only do resources gate access to travel links between keeps, they also help determine how strongly that keep is defended. The act of disrupting a transit route or bringing in some extra weaponry may help turn the tide of battle in your favor.

Never underestimate the old saying “the best offense is a good defense”. In Cyrodiil your attacks and their effectiveness will be limited by your available resources, and thus it is extremely important to safely control as much territory as possible. Heavily disputed territory becomes a resource-sink (yes, I am trying to start a trend here). When all the ground you own is contested ground you cannot hope to ever truly best another. The ability for player guilds to claim keeps and outposts will easily provide incentives to hold on to what territory you own.

The economy of Cyrodiil is transacted in Alliance points, from keep-repairs to purchasing siege equipment itself. You can earn alliance points by capturing or defending objectives and killing enemy players. This means that your alliance can have a good income of alliance points just by owning and defending your own territory. Forcing enemies to make an advance can cause them to waste resources and leave themselves exposed to losing their own territory. In time,  players will learn how to react to enemy movements in a way to take advantage."

“How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?”
R.A.Salvatore

  PerfArt

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 864

1/02/14 10:33:22 PM#8
One small point to consider in addition to all the fine points made thus far: Synergy abilities hint at being quite effective and efficient. This will favor more focused, tactical groups while the zerg train will not only be unlikely to consider such group dynamic important, but they will be structured in such a fashion that coordinating the efficient use of said Synergy effects will be more problematic for them when compared to the organizational focus of a smaller group.

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  djazzy

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/05
Posts: 3623

1/02/14 10:41:09 PM#9
large scale pvp is always a zerg, in every single game. This won't be any different
  killahh

Novice Member

Joined: 8/25/04
Posts: 455

As famous as the unknown soldier

1/02/14 10:43:47 PM#10

i imagine a bit of both, zerg and group.

in DAOC well coordinated 8mans, roaming groups and zergs were the norm, on Mordred, more 8mans than zergs.

 

in any case, it was hella fun for everyone, your gonna love it too.

Gonada Dahung,over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting....Please Lord, let someone make a game that had all the awesomeness of UO, EQ and EVE...

  Fusion

Old School

Joined: 5/21/03
Posts: 1358

1/02/14 10:45:39 PM#11
Most probably yes, i expect it to be pretty similar if not identical to that of WvW in GW2.

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  Tibernicuspa

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/03/13
Posts: 986

1/02/14 11:33:29 PM#12
Originally posted by Fusion
Most probably yes, i expect it to be pretty similar if not identical to that of WvW in GW2.

Well, WvW was a poorly thought out mess that tried so hard to emulate DAoC but didn't understand what DAoC did right.

TESO is being built from the go by a high up DAoC dev, with RvR in mind. Design wise, it already looks better than WvW. The fact that they chose specific engine things to allow more people on screen shows more foresight than Arenanet had.

  Fearum

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 1089

1/02/14 11:36:41 PM#13
I think they are planning for large PvP battles with designing the game to show 200+ players on the screen at one time, so if you consider a large war a zerg fest, then yes. I think there will be some tactics involved though you can't just run around in a herd capping while you lose everything behind you because I don't think it would benefit your faction doing so.
  Jupsto

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/22/07
Posts: 2107

1/02/14 11:52:28 PM#14
Originally posted by djazzy
large scale pvp is always a zerg, in every single game. This won't be any different

So true. And yet also some of my most enjoyable moments in gaming, at least in darkfall anyway. I will never forget some of those battles were we managed to survive against all the odds.

My blog:

  DAS1337

Novice Member

Joined: 11/28/07
Posts: 2378

1/03/14 12:11:43 AM#15

I think the exclusion of PvP scenario's is the key.  

 

I'm going to explain something.  If you are looking for a game that will not involve a zerg, then you are in for a rude awakening.  You are fighting for your alliance.  The whole alliance.  Can you imagine how many people are part of your alliance in any given server?  Can we both agree that the amount of people will be... A lot?  I'd imagine you could potentially see hundreds on any given battlefield, between three alliances.  So yes, the system is designed for a LOT of people.  

 

Warhammer made a crucial mistake by allowing players to progress their character in instanced scenarios.  Their system allowed players to progress through scenarios faster than they would in open RvR.  Most of the time, RvR lakes were ghost towns, and occasionally you would just flip control points for realm points.  Only very rarely did a large keep battle actually take place.  Scenario's just destroyed the game.  You can't allow players to outpace the world content with instanced content.

 

So, TESO has excluded PvP scenario's to avoid this issue.  The only PvP you will be doing is located in Cyrodil.  This means all combat is going to be in one large area.  Hopefully there will be ample rewards for doing just about anything there.  I think it will work out fine, as long as what the players are fighting over is worth defending, or conquering.

  sethman75

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/14/13
Posts: 192

1/03/14 12:18:23 AM#16

Of course it will be

Besides arena type gameplay, all pvp is a zerg.

It's like a 10 year old mashing buttons on a 2d fighter.

You will win some and lose some but there is no structure, hence the reason so many people detest pvp

 

 

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7191

1/03/14 12:28:16 AM#17
Zerg fest like GW2? Man I hope not... I'm really hoping for the place to look and play like mmorpg world.

When I eat chocolate chip pie it just doesn't feel like chocolate chip cookies. The texture, the consistency, it's just not the same and this is disappointing.

  Gatlan

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/19/13
Posts: 103

1/03/14 12:39:47 AM#18

    Some of you have had different experiences in pvp than me, I guess.  IMO, A well coordinated warband will turn aside a zerg almost every time.   If you play with people who know their roll and communicate, a zerg group is just going to be a lot of kills.

    From what I've read, I think ESO has put a lot of thought into it.  They won't reward quick flipping of keeps.  There will be choke points where small groups will thrive and its best to have multiple battles going on at once.  If the whole zerg is throwing themselves at the keep wall, squads can go back out and retake the resources, which will make the walls and the npc guards stronger.  It sounds like a well thought out system, simple but also complex enough to require thought and strategic decisions.

  PerfArt

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 864

1/05/14 8:46:31 PM#19
Another aspect of the gameplay that could affect group vs. zerg dynamics is the resource-based ability system. Rather than two or three sides cycling through their cooldown skills, ESO is much more dynamic and unpredictable in nature. A smaller team whose strategy is geared towards maximized resource efficiency and renewal is going to have advantages over a zerg that just dumps spike dps magicka and stamina. This, combined with choke points, means that a well-run group could keep chopping a larger force off at the head or tail with cc and stacked synergy AE effects while cycling through their resources efficiently.

Zergs tend to lack strategy and assume that their larger numbers will always win, and tend to play as such. This opens up opportunities for smaller forces to win small battles. Nip the tail: the main force will probably not even notice until they are 100 meters ahead of the stealth CCed rear "guard." Assume they will try to bulldoze and build strategies around that. Bait stragglers with a sole visible, etc. Every second counts, and a very mobile, resource-efficient group can win battles while avoiding the war. This forces the zerg to waste time chasing, rezzing, depleting resources, spamming Ultimates, and ultimately decreasing organization for the time that an allied zerg shows up and hits a weakened enemy.

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  bantapoo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/10/10
Posts: 4

1/06/14 4:21:02 AM#20

I think it all depends on the performance. If they can manage to have 50 players on screen without becoming a visual pukefest with disappearing players (aka gw2), then it will be possible to relive a bit of the DAOC epic relic battles.

 

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