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Programming  » How much time will using hero engine save vs building own engine

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54 posts found
  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2869

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12/31/13 8:00:35 AM#21
Originally posted by Xiaoki

 


Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Don't use the "hero" Engine. "Unity" is MUCH, MUCH better.


Unity?! For an MMO?!

Definitely, specially for an "amateur" developer.

Not to mention the hero engine is quite crappy performance wise (see SW:TOR).

 

There are a few indie MMO projects done with Unity already, like http://gloriavictisgame.com/

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  ZombieKen

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Joined: 3/30/10
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12/31/13 8:05:12 AM#22

One side to this is art pipeline.  Think of the typical 6 to 10 gig game.  Where is all that weight?  Much of it is artwork.

 

If the engine provides a great system for getting artwork into the game, this is an incredible time saver.

 

If the art pipeline sucks, you will be cursing it for the rest of your life.  It will waste countless hours.

 

So, from personal experience,  Check out the art pipeline before deciding on an engine.

 

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  Lobotomist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/20/07
Posts: 4853

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12/31/13 8:16:42 AM#23
Hero engine is bane of MMO gaming. All MMOs that used it crushed and burned.

  drgran

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/14/06
Posts: 191

12/31/13 8:42:22 AM#24
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Xiaoki

 


Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Don't use the "hero" Engine. "Unity" is MUCH, MUCH better.


Unity?! For an MMO?!

Definitely, specially for an "amateur" developer.

Not to mention the hero engine is quite crappy performance wise (see SW:TOR).

 

There are a few indie MMO projects done with Unity already, like http://gloriavictisgame.com/

Your based your conclusion on a Team that bought the source code at alpha release and they modified it to hell. 

Sw:tor is a good example on what not to do. If the OP uses the hero engine licence without buying the source . He (they) could come up with something great. 

What is Gloria Victis? is it a MMO or arena based like smite?

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  blubsterer

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/15/10
Posts: 89

12/31/13 9:56:11 AM#25
Originally posted by Gintoh
Lets just say I was making a sandbox scifi mmo (tabula rasa esque combat but SWG esque sandbox/ city building etc. mechanics) and this game had a 10 mil budget. How much time would I save using Hero engine save vs building an engine?

Using a purchasable engine which does exactly what you need can save many man years of expert work. But there are a few caveats:

* finding the engine that technically fits to your project is a very hard task. And if you choose the wrong one, you are lost ;)  If you have to ask here in the forums, you are really not competent enough to manage this.

* finding the engine that fits to your business plans isn't easy either. Wrapping your business plan around a engine is a perfect way to fail. If you have to ask here in the forums, you are really not competent enough to manage this either ;)

* finding enough software engineers willing to work with you and the engine you prefer is maybe the hardest part. No matter how much time you save with a pre built engine, you can't do it alone. And to fail with a team is even more problematic than to fail on your own (38 Studios anyone?).

So, i really hope for you that your question is only hypothetical ....

  Distopia

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12/31/13 10:05:36 AM#26
Originally posted by Lobotomist
Hero engine is bane of MMO gaming. All MMOs that used it crushed and burned.

All, lol..? You folks really need to read up on this stuff before stating things you obviously know very little about.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

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  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4806

12/31/13 10:10:05 AM#27
Originally posted by Gintoh
Lets just say I was making a sandbox scifi mmo (tabula rasa esque combat but SWG esque sandbox/ city building etc. mechanics) and this game had a 10 mil budget. How much time would I save using Hero engine save vs building an engine?

there are a lot of factors that go into how much time would be saved (how numerous / complex the features you want are). Assuming Hero did everything you wanted, though, the amount of time saved would be in years. And the amount of money saved would be in millions.

When building a new engine, most companies make a smaller / proof of concept game to recoup some of those costs.

  Lord.Bachus

Elite Member

Joined: 5/14/07
Posts: 8706

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12/31/13 10:15:03 AM#28

Ask the SWTOR development team about the HERO engine..

 

Most of their budget and time was lost on the Hero engine and trying to moddify it to do what they wanted, and in the end it just could not do that..  

 

Any top of the line MMORPG should have an inhouse engine...  Using general engines ingenerall ended up with failing projects... SWTOR, Vanguard the most wellknown examples of this...

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  Dreamo84

Defender of Worlds

Joined: 5/20/04
Posts: 3097

I actually still like MMORPGs

12/31/13 10:39:55 AM#29
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

Ask the SWTOR development team about the HERO engine..

 

Most of their budget and time was lost on the Hero engine and trying to moddify it to do what they wanted, and in the end it just could not do that..  

 

Any top of the line MMORPG should have an inhouse engine...  Using general engines ingenerall ended up with failing projects... SWTOR, Vanguard the most wellknown examples of this...

People have already said numerous times in this thread. If you had bothered to read, you would know that the version of Hero Bioware bought was an Alpha version. They had to modify the shit out of it because it wasn't even finished.

Modern Hero engine is a completely different story and what SWTOR uses doesn't even resemble Hero engine as it was then or now.

  nariusseldon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

12/31/13 11:58:40 AM#30

You have $10M and you cannot do such a crucial piece of research and resort to gathering amateur opinions on internet forums?

This is the kind of issues that people do technical research, and write 10 page reports for.

 

  Gintoh

Novice Member

Joined: 4/27/09
Posts: 316

 
OP  12/31/13 12:33:15 PM#31
Well I can but I just wanted to start a discussion because it would be fun.
  nariusseldon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

12/31/13 12:46:22 PM#32
Originally posted by Gintoh
Well I can but I just wanted to start a discussion because it would be fun.

well .. if fun and amateurish opinions are what you are looking for ... then here is my two cents.

I say you will save 6 months 3 days 2 hours and 16 minutes.

 

  Loktofeit

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Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

12/31/13 12:55:18 PM#33
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Gintoh
Well I can but I just wanted to start a discussion because it would be fun.

well .. if fun and amateurish opinions are what you are looking for ... then here is my two cents.

I say you will save 6 months 3 days 2 hours and 16 minutes.

 

I think Narius grossly over estimated. You'll save at most 3 months, 12 days and 9 hours. 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Drakynn

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/08
Posts: 2051

12/31/13 1:03:06 PM#34
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by Lobotomist
Hero engine is bane of MMO gaming. All MMOs that used it crushed and burned.

All, lol..? You folks really need to read up on this stuff before stating things you obviously know very little about.

While I agree using the two games released on the hero Engine ,with one using a heavily modified version and the other developed by a company that is very hit and miss with everything they do,to villify and condemn the engine itself is foolish...
until there is a killer game made with this engine or several I don't see the point in praising it and singing it's THEROETICAL virtues either

At this point in time both the current Unreal  and Unity engines are more proven the the Hero Engine,that doesn't mean they are better or worse just that the hero engine has not given any evidence of being better and two dubious examples o being worse.

  Tamanous

Elite Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 1796

12/31/13 1:10:20 PM#35

CSE decided to make their own engine for Camelot Unchained. Luckily they have a very gifted developer heading he engine build with experience. I can only imagine the knowledge heading into building a game engine is most important. The kickstarter was an early one and truely for kicking off the project. Due to this we are able to see everything progressing including the engine.

 

So far I would say they easily have added at least 6 months to a year because of developing an entirely new engine. It also was noted they had developed engines in the past using a different language and wanted to head in a different direction which I have no idea if this saves time in the long run or not. Other elements of the game are progressing at the same time but man hours are diverted for engine development no doubt. Parallel this with net coding, concept art, early model development and mock ups using different engines/apps and the first year is mostly prep work.

 

CSE hopes this actually saves them time and money in the long run over leasing an engine that may or may not meet their performance requirements and likely the is the most important question. A company leasing/buying an engine would already be building on top of that engine by now but then a great deal of trust must go into that engine to ensure it doesn't limit your ultimate goals. A good example of this is Pathfinder. They decided to use the Unity engine and have therefore already released vids on world building. Camelot Unchained has only been through net coding and base engine testing not yet even using actual CU world elements. Cost, development time and final performance weigh heavily into factoring which direction to take.

 

As for the Hero engine my opinion of it is it's developed from the ground up to make the themepark games I hate so will never support another Hero engine game. Even if used otherwise it always seem clunky and slow for my liking.

You stay sassy!

  nariusseldon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

12/31/13 5:02:40 PM#36
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Gintoh
Well I can but I just wanted to start a discussion because it would be fun.

well .. if fun and amateurish opinions are what you are looking for ... then here is my two cents.

I say you will save 6 months 3 days 2 hours and 16 minutes.

 

I think Narius grossly over estimated. You'll save at most 3 months, 12 days and 9 hours. 

May be averaging the answer will be more accurate. The book Wisdom of the Crowd says so.

 

  UtukuMoon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/03/11
Posts: 1109

12/31/13 5:10:42 PM#37
Originally posted by Gintoh
Lets just say I was making a sandbox scifi mmo (tabula rasa esque combat but SWG esque sandbox/ city building etc. mechanics) and this game had a 10 mil budget. How much time would I save using Hero engine save vs building an engine?

I would use this before i even thought about that engine.

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  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13654

12/31/13 5:50:00 PM#38
Originally posted by Gintoh
Well, let's just assum it did have everything, what is a long time? 6 months? A Year? 2 Years? 

If the Hero Engine--or any other off-the-shelf game engine--has everything that you want, then your game is a generic clone and should be canceled immediately.  Don't waste your time looking for an engine that has everything that you want.

That's not to say that you should never license a game engine.  If a game engine does much of what you want, does it the way you want it, and does it well, and you have the capability to readily modify or add to it to get the rest of what you want, licensing the game engine may save you a lot of time and effort.  But it's important to recognize that you will have to modify the game engine.  If you don't have that capability, don't start the project.

And to modify the game engine, you're going to need access to the full source code.  Game engines might say that you can license it for a few hundred dollars or some such without the source code, but that's basically a trial version.  If you want to actually launch a game, you need the source code, and you'd better find out ahead of time exactly what that is going to cost so that you don't get shocked by an unexpected six figure price tag later.

Choosing between game engines is not a question of looking for the one that does everything you want.  Rather, it's a question of which game engine would be the easiest to modify into what you want.  If you're going far off the beaten path, building your own from scratch is likely to be the easiest there.  Building your own means that when you inevitably need to make modifications, you already have someone on the project who knows exactly what the engine does and why it was set up to do things that way--because he coded it himself.  If you're less ambitious on the technical side of things, licensing a game engine may make more sense.

  Quizzical

Guide

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Posts: 13654

12/31/13 5:58:06 PM#39
Originally posted by Ridelynn

Well, as far as time saved... I guess it depends.

They've spent what, 8-9 years developing Hero to the point it's at now? But that's an engine designed to be packaged and sold as an engine, if you jsut developed the features you needed, and didn't bother heavily with the support and documentation that a commercial product needs to ship with... maybe half that time?

The original id tech engine was developed over the course of several decades, starting back in the early 1990's. That's powered everything from Wolfenstien 3D to Rage.

CryEngine and Unreal Engine are in similar boats, developed and refined over a number of years, and iteratively released as they get access to new and more powerful hardware.

So.. if you just wanted to move pixels on a screen, you could write a 3D engine that uses basic textures in less than a year, but it will look like something out of 1991. If your wanting fully features shader engines and network code and the entire works, your looking at years of development.

And even with a fully mature engine, your still looking at 18 months minimum just to plug in your art/music assets and get the AI and such working how you want it... and the more you deviate from the building blocks of whatever engine you pick, tack on just that much more time.

10M is a lot of money, but for an MMO that needs a back end capable of handling thousands of users, a marketing & distribution network capable of selling to thousands of gamers, and multimedia assets to make it look and sound interesting, your out a lot of money already before you even program one single line of code.

You touched on this, but there's an enormous difference between making an engine for your particular game and making an engine that is intended to be licensed to others.  In the former, you can often say, I don't need this capability for my particular game, so I'm not going to implement it.  In the latter, you often have to say, a lot of games will want this capability even if most won't, so I have to implement it.  Having a lot of things that you don't need to implement can easily simplify coding the things that you do need, too.

Also, if a game engine is in development over the course of decades, you're looking at an awful lot of deprecated code.  Going from purely 2D methods to the early 3D fixed function pipeline to early 3D programmable shaders to adding geometry shaders and the tessellation stages changes a ton of stuff every step of the way.  If you build your own from scratch, you don't have any legacy bloat, nor any bias toward doing things a particular way because it made sense 5 or 10 years ago, even if it doesn't make sense today.

Making a game engine can take a lot of time in the sense of the gap between the date started and the date finished.  But it doesn't necessarily take a ton of man hours.  A game with a large enough budget easily have 100 artists creating artwork simultaneously.  But you can't have 100 people coding the low level stuff in your game engine without constantly tripping over each other.  Rather, if you're going to create your own engine, you have only a handful of programmers to start, then hire a bunch more people to join the project later on.

  Smikis

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/27/04
Posts: 1074

12/31/13 6:09:23 PM#40
it would save you a lot of time, but your game would ultimately fail, so whats the point , not sure why you are asking those question in first place..
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